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Originally Posted By BrandonP: I shoot 2 gun, precision gas gun, run and guns, tac games, light fighter, night fighter etc all with a 10-12 lb setup. Took 1st in night fighter, 2nd in light fighter both of which involved timed ruck runs. These aren't matches for fat guys who can only run for 30 seconds at a time. People generally aren't using hyper lightweight setups. One exception is tac games, and the people shooting these ultra light setups generally don't do well if the COF requires longer strings at lower probability targets. The last sniper match I shot, one team shooting a lightweight proof barrel was having massive issues with heat causing vertical stringing on the longer courses of fire. The bolt gun shooter is a buddy of mine, he immediately pitched that barrel. It doesn't take 5 mags of fire to start seeing this vertical stringing. The point is, shaving a little weight off the gun and losing capability isn't the solution any more than a micro chest rig is going to help some great big fat guy move efficiently. We've all seen the meme. You're mixing a few styles though. A sniper match or a 2 gun is not the same as running and moving for 45-75 minutes and shooting targets out to 300-400 (at least in my side of the country). If I was shooting a sniper match I'd want a match grade setup. Also - with light weights - proper mfg and stress relief can go a lot way to mitigating heat related accuracy deviations. |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Originally Posted By Fooboy: Ok well I see you do some real shooting so forgive my assumptions otherwise. You're mixing a few styles though. A sniper match or a 2 gun is not the same as running and moving for 45-75 minutes and shooting targets out to 300-400 (at least in my side of the country). If I was shooting a sniper match I'd want a match grade setup. Also - with light weights - proper mfg and stress relief can go a lot way to mitigating heat related accuracy deviations. That's fair. I'm trying not to hyper optimize to a specific match, but find a setup that works for everything. The 10-12 lb SPR gets you from 0 to 700+ comfortably, even further potentially. The rifle in question was one of Jamie Dodsons actions and a proof barrel. It's a great rifle, just not made for 20+ Rd strings. But sometimes you need to shoot 20+ rounds at a time. I shot Geissele yesterday, and there were some stages inside 100, while others went to almost 700 in crazy wind. I'm sure a heavier gun in 6.5 or 6 arc would be optimal, but I also want the same rifle to be great for 2 gun as well. Believe it or not I've won 2 gun matches with that same rifle using the offset the entire time. If I had to choose one gun, it's absolutely the SPR with mpvo, offset dot and a heavy match grade barrel |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: That's fair. I'm trying not to hyper optimize to a specific match, but find a setup that works for everything. The 10-12 lb SPR gets you from 0 to 700+ comfortably, even further potentially. The rifle in question was one of Jamie Dodsons actions and a proof barrel. It's a great rifle, just not made for 20+ Rd strings. But sometimes you need to shoot 20+ rounds at a time. I shot Geissele yesterday, and there were some stages inside 100, while others went to almost 700 in crazy wind. I'm sure a heavier gun in 6.5 or 6 arc would be optimal, but I also want the same rifle to be great for 2 gun as well. Believe it or not I've won 2 gun matches with that same rifle using the offset the entire time. If I had to choose one gun, it's absolutely the SPR with mpvo, offset dot and a heavy match grade barrel 2 things can be true at once. You're shooting more types of matches and at longer distances - so I'm not questioning your experience and results. I've found accuracy decreases to be minimal at 0-400 with lower volume shooting (1-2 mags and then running to next stage) so the weight trade off is worth it. Pragmatically speaking I'm more worried about mobility and close targets. Take in mind (as you know) you're shooting with spiking heart rate, drenched in sweat, from a magazine monopod or fence post as support - so extreme accuracy is out the window anyways  |
Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
I like my LW profile barrels. I got an A1 from H&R that I find myself shooting the most. I put a TA33 on it and can take that out to three hundred yards on my property. It's good enough for me. Like what you want, that is the great thing about the AR market. 
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| Thing is there are SO many ways to build a super light rifle without compromising on the barrel. It’s expensive, but V7 and other parts places let you get away with a slightly more medium-profile / LW barrel (again, tapered is best) while still have an insanely lightweight rifle. Optic choice is where the real weight pain starts to show. |
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Originally Posted By Bebop_941: This looks like it may be a different test than what I remember. I'll take a look - thank you. Edit: I read the article and it's an evaluation of a single barrel with no comparison. I did find some info suggesting the extra material forward of the gas block might act as a heat sink to disipate heat away from the chamber more than a pencil barrel will. Considering the profile difference isn't that large, I don't know how significant that effect would be. Also, I recall some precision shooters attaching weights to the end of their barrels to tune harmonics. It's a stretch but that may play a role though not heat related. Here's some lightweight barrel testing I did YEARS ago https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Accuracy-test-of-BCM-and-RRA-16-Lightweight-Midlengths/118-616594/ |
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I don't really get the point of this thread, which apparently less about the benefits of light weight barrels (which are obvious), but about people who are somehow overly passionate on the topic to OP's tastes? So... OK. Regarding LW barrels in 2026 - while I miss the 1990's so very much, I don't miss the barrels. A modern barrel is made with uniform quality metallurgy and machining that is unheard of in the past. Get something like a FAXON Gunner MATCH profile, which is LW barrel and skinny final end (vs the A2 pointless thick end that offers little benefit). And FAXON will malonite and cryotreat them. Mine shoots ~1.5 MOA (with match-grade ammo of course), and is zero'd and holds zero well from day to day. When I do mag dumps and heat it up, I did a zero check and it shots ~1.5 MOA and hold the same zero. Why would you not want that? Even a PSA barrel will do pretty decent today. The modern tacticaool M4 accessoried to the T, is ridiculous. Take a 14.5" spec gun and make it weight 2 lb more than 20" spec AR15 original with unbeneficial mass and random shit on it and notably reduced range-to-2700FPS-fragment-distance; and that's winning? No. Sure, I run H-bar 20" National match for 600 yard shooting, with lead weights in the stock even - for that purpose. But for an M4orgery gun that might ever be grabbed and taken to the field, why would I not run it light if it shoots good? |
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Originally Posted By Fooboy: I think a point where we may be talking past each other too is intended range. My ranges and areas to shoot are 400 max. I think for most people inside typical 5.56 sweet spot and nominal strings of fire a well made LW is going to do great. If you're pushing longer ranges and higher round count then a LW is not ideal. I imagine the % of AR owners who shoot regularly - or past 100Y - is extremely low. 2 things can be true at once. You're shooting more types of matches and at longer distances - so I'm not questioning your experience and results. I've found accuracy decreases to be minimal at 0-400 with lower volume shooting (1-2 mags and then running to next stage) so the weight trade off is worth it. Pragmatically speaking I'm more worried about mobility and close targets. Take in mind (as you know) you're shooting with spiking heart rate, drenched in sweat, from a magazine monopod or fence post as support - so extreme accuracy is out the window anyways That's fair, it also matters how aggressively you're shooting even at close range. If you're hunting or taking single shots on steel plates it doesn't much matter how the gun returns to the target. It's only when you're shooting aggressive 2+ round strings per target that you start to appreciate a heavier gun that's gassed well and returns easily. In the context of home defense or grab and go, I want a rifle I can shoot with maximum performance at close range too, 3-5 round strings holding about an A zone as fast as I can pull the trigger out to say 20 yd, and I want the gun to return so I can shoot reactively (i.e. reacting to the sight returning to the target) for strings out to 40, 60, 80 offhand. There's a sweet spot for sure, obviously I don't want to add weights to the gun since I need to be able to carry it for miles, shoot it in awkward positions, etc |
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Here's a good discussion, as well as a colt LW compared to a heavy weight https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/A-Visual-Library-of-AR-15-Barrel-Profiles/118-763007/ |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
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And some more https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Colt-M4A1-SOCOM-Barrel-Accuracy-Another-Look/118-762088/?page=1 |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:Take in mind (as you know) you're shooting with spiking heart rate, drenched in sweat, from a magazine monopod or fence post as support - so extreme accuracy is out the window anyways Thats why I actually like a little bit more weight out front, not an HB but not a lw either. That little extra weight slows down the bounce of your body catching its breath. |
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Originally Posted By MRW: yeah, I can't find his post where he tests three different barrels, a pencil barrel, a mid weight, and then a socom heavy barrel. The heavy barrel won for precision hold as they heated up, but the pencil barrel did just fine for combat use against humans at 300 yards or so. This is my reason for having a few pencil barrels - practical accuracy. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Thats why I actually like a little bit more weight out front, not an HB but not a lw either. That little extra weight slows down the bounce of your body catching its breath.
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Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Originally Posted By Fooboy: That's why I add the suppressor Originally Posted By Fooboy: Originally Posted By 03RN: Thats why I actually like a little bit more weight out front, not an HB but not a lw either. That little extra weight slows down the bounce of your body catching its breath. Which is a good point and does the same thing. But ive noticed a much bigger swing in group size and poi when using a suppressor on a lw barrel. Not an issue for a hunting rifle. I had given up on lw compact bolts guns for hunting but would consider one now. |
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Agreed, I went from suppress everything to "I need a suppressor pouch and a rifle/can combo with zero POI shift." My current rifle doesn't have any POI shift with the sandman that goes on it. It's off until night time, then the can goes on. It's not worth the extra weight / length / backpressure / fouling / mirage etc to leave on all the time, but at night it's critical equipment. |
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Originally Posted By Teller_Ulam: I love my lightweight pencil barrels. I have a couple 14.5 chf skinnys that will shoot moa and occasional sub moa. When they heat up, they may open to 1.5-1.75 moa. Still very usable. They cool off quick too. https://i.imgur.com/CbXircS.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/qT0Wj3s.jpeg Wow. That's quite impressive for any day at the range. People act like any AR with any ammo is a MOA gun all day long, and that's just not true at all. So yea, that's some fine shooting. And you're right, skinny barrels cool off quick. Once you get an HBAR hot, well, it's hot. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Wow. That's quite impressive for any day at the range. People act like any AR with any ammo is a MOA gun all day long, and that's just not true at all. So yea, that's some fine shooting. And you're right, skinny barrels cool off quick. Once you get an HBAR hot, well, it's hot. Thank you! These were fired off sandbags at 100. I like the 14.5 pencil barrels for competition rifles, where each stage is 25 rounds or so. Never gets too hot. Fighting rifles too, because even when hot, their cone of fire spread is still perfectly acceptable. For me the lightweight is worth it. |
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Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: I've seen AK-74's (light profile, I might add) shoot quite well at distance. Agreed. My SGL31 shoots groups roughly on par with my Colt 6920. |
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Weight is always the enemy...unless all you're gonna do is prone or bench shooting. Lighter rifles are easier to carry & shoot standing up IMO. My 4 lb-ish 12.5" SBR is my main & favorite out of what I have. My 16" G SD is heavy and only gets shot from a bench because of that. |
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I totally understand why people like LW barrels but personally I don't really need them. My favorite AR is around 10# with a criterion hybrid barrel and saving 4-6 oz in the barrel would be basically irrelevant to me. |
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| I have no illusions about the fact that even in a legit self-defense scenario, the odds of being engaged in a long firefight as a civilian are slim to none. My lightweight barreled ARs will do me just fine. Even the M4's with gov't profile barrels that are currently in service with DoD are only half-heavy to allow for mounting of a grenade launcher. Besides, my LW barreled Sionics outshoots all of my other ARs. It's most likely the rifle I'd grab if Soviet paratroopers, a la Red Dawn, started falling out of the sky. |
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Light barrels have been in millions of infantry rifles. They work fine under normal firing schedules, carry well, and point beautifully. Heavy barrels have some advantages too. I don't find them objectionable to walk with under normal circumstances, but some circumstances aren't normal. Ex: I do a lot of predator hunting, sometimes in bad conditions, deep snow, etc. In and out of a truck all night long. Some buddies use heavy rigs, I use a midweight rifle. The difference of about 5lbs is immediately noticeable but really come into play after hours of humping them around. The most important thing is to out a bullet in the right spot, and when moving, less weight and reduced strain or effort is cumulative. Whatever gets shot doesn't know what your barrel profile is as long as you put it in the right place. Get both, for different circumstances. If you can have only one, an optimized modern profile is ideal, but if that isn't the choice I'd rather go light than heavy in a rifle that is carried lots. If you're posting up in one spot waiting for a shot this is less critical and heavy is probably a better choice for stability. Much like many other gun things, this is kind of one of those things that the people who need to know, know from experience. If you're not blowing through high round counts then it truly doesn't much matter. Besides, the guys that are getting paid to shoot people overwhelmingly get little say in what they use. If you are one of the guys that doe get to choose, you'll know enough to make the informed decision yourself. As for me, my do all has a SOCOM profile, while my waking around gun is quite light with a pencil barrel. Precision guns, heavier barrels. Hunting rifles, lighter barrels. |
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| The faxon pencil barrels are known to have LESS drift when hot. They seem to have their heat treatment technique nailed down. |
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General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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If you want to talk accuracy we need to talk match ammo/handloads and your barrel extension to upper receiver interface (glued or thermal fit) first. Then after that we can talk about barrel quality, and lastly we can get into barrel profile. Also once you have accessories up front it's nice to have a light barrel. |
Post your CQB Warmup scores with a 4 lb rifle, then do it again with a 9 lb rifle and report back. My point is that you can shoot a heavier (but still balanced) rifle much more aggressively than these ultra light builds, which matters inside of a house. CQB Warmup - Christian Sailer with Matt Pranka (Xray.Alpha) and Ben Stoeger |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Post your CQB Warmup scores with a 4 lb rifle, then do it again with a 9 lb rifle and report back. My point is that you can shoot a heavier (but still balanced) rifle much more aggressively than these ultra light builds, which matters inside of a house.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZigZiZ4QkxoThere is no barrel profile with a 5 pound delta. The OP seemed to be referring to light weight barrels, not ultra light weight builds. So we are talking a 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound or maybe even a pound difference on the front end depending on barrel length and profile comparison. I don't want or need a 9 pound AR for HD inside/around my home, and I would not trust a 4 pound AR for anything. |
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Originally Posted By panthermark: There is no barrel profile with a 5 pound delta. The OP seemed to be referring to light weight barrels, not ultra light weight builds. So we are talking a 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound or maybe even a pound difference on the front end depending on barrel length and profile comparison. I don't want or need a 9 pound AR for HD inside/around my home, and I would not trust a 4 pound AR for anything. Post #26 |
| I built up the missus a light weight AR a few years ago. She loves shooting a few of my rifles, but she is on the small side and can't hold up one of my medium weighted barreled ARs for very long. Found a 16" pencil barrel, had it chopped to 14.5" and pin and welded a flash hider on it. It is a minimalist rifle with just a sling and T2 optic. She loves it. I found a spare barrel to set back for her if I ever needed to rebarrel it. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Post your CQB Warmup scores with a 4 lb rifle, then do it again with a 9 lb rifle and report back. My point is that you can shoot a heavier (but still balanced) rifle much more aggressively than these ultra light builds, which matters inside of a house. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZigZiZ4QkxoWill the differences matter at house ranges? I don't think they will. I shot an m4 clone with a rail, acog, light, sling, and sopmod vs my lw rifle and the m4 clone was easier to keep on target indeed but at the ranges we are discussing? Wouldn't be a problem. |
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Originally Posted By fadedsun: Will the differences matter at house ranges? I don't think they will. I shot an m4 clone with a rail, acog, light, sling, and sopmod vs my lw rifle and the m4 clone was easier to keep on target indeed but at the ranges we are discussing? Wouldn't be a problem. We are clearly talking about different kinds of shooting |
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Originally Posted By MRW: https://thenewrifleman.com/the-okay-boomer-rifle-or-the-old-man-rifle/ old man rifle I have a pair of PSA pencil barrel uppers that I like, they were initially on KP15 lowers but I had some problems with them and then we all found out a little more about them. I think someone on here commented these PSA barrels are a little thicker than a normal pencil barrel. iirc this with the KP15 lower was 6 pounds even with the optic, light but no sling. 2.5x20 Leupold, 18650 Streamlight Polytac. This is an old photo, the optic has been moved back since. Very happy with that little Leupold, shame it's been discontinued. 6 ounces, 4.9" of eye relief and I can shoot it with both eyes open. I think that's a 2024 election sticker, maybe even 2022. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: We are clearly talking about different kinds of shooting Inside of a house how far are you shooting? 
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Originally Posted By 03RN: I dont go out of my way to make light or heavy guns. I do go out of my way to walk, hike, ruck, and hunt with them. M4a1 barrel https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000003794_jpg-3782305.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/c48d5410-0ab3-440c-bf3a-effda4c7ddac-1_a-3782319.JPG M16a4 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000004304_jpg-3782320.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000005149_jpg-3782322.JPG I like midweight guns because they are easier to hold steady after exertion and you're catching your breath. I love that your kiddo brings a samurai sword into the woods |
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Comparing a gun with a humongous gamer brake vs a suppressor ehhhh |
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