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I didn't get it until I shot a friend's lightweight. I built one after that. I didn't realize that an arfcommer had sold me a barrel a couple inches too short. It was a bushy with the canted fsb. I cut off the fsb and ran an aimpoint on it. When I realized the barrel was too short (no stamp), I disassembled it and sold the barrel to a coworker. At least I got the lightweight thing out of my system. They are very handy when they don't weigh shit. 
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| OP, I don't carry around 210 rounds of ammo and ceramic Level 4 plates in an uparmored Humvee either. I was never infantry, and am never going to be infantry. A pencil barrel will serve me and my ammunition budget just fine. Should my ammo budget increase and I can suddenly afford a 5.56 w/ an FRT, I certainly won't use a gov't profile 14.5" barrel for it. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, I don't carry around 210 rounds of ammo and ceramic Level 4 plates in an uparmored Humvee either. I was never infantry, and am never going to be infantry. A pencil barrel will serve me and my ammunition budget just fine. Should my ammo budget increase and I can suddenly afford a 5.56 w/ an FRT, I certainly won't use a gov't profile 14.5" barrel for it. Why not? The government does. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Why not? The government does. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, I don't carry around 210 rounds of ammo and ceramic Level 4 plates in an uparmored Humvee either. I was never infantry, and am never going to be infantry. A pencil barrel will serve me and my ammunition budget just fine. Should my ammo budget increase and I can suddenly afford a 5.56 w/ an FRT, I certainly won't use a gov't profile 14.5" barrel for it. Why not? The government does. The government way is generally not the best way. |
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Thing is there are SO many ways to build a super light rifle without compromising on the barrel. It’s expensive, but V7 and other parts places let you get away with a slightly more medium-profile / LW barrel (again, tapered is best) while still have an insanely lightweight rifle. Optic choice is where the real weight pain starts to show. True, if you're not worried about protecting it from dirt and stuff as much, several companies make extremely lightweight handguards, uppers, and lowers by removing a significant amount of metal. It makes them completely inappropriate for duty use or SHTF, but as a light rifle for the ranch or for hiking the backwoods, they'd be great. |
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Because light rifles are faster. Rifles lighter forward of the receiver are ever faster. Not all lightweight barrels are created the same, with the right profile it’s not going to walk POI or open up groups when hot. For my money, the Criterion CORE is about the best general purpose profile going currently. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: There's a reason people don't use them in shooting sports, even sports where the round counts per stage might be under 50. All things equal, people can usually shoot a well-balanced heavier rifle much more aggressively than a lightweight rifle that takes much more effort to return and may do so inconsistently. If these light guns offered some tangible benefit in pointability and speed, without these drawbacks, you'd see them a lot more often in shooting sports. What the hell are you talking about? Lots of people use lightweight rifles in the shooting sports. My 2-Gun stick is barely 5#. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: That's fair, it also matters how aggressively you're shooting even at close range. If you're hunting or taking single shots on steel plates it doesn't much matter how the gun returns to the target. It's only when you're shooting aggressive 2+ round strings per target that you start to appreciate a heavier gun that's gassed well and returns easily. In the context of home defense or grab and go, I want a rifle I can shoot with maximum performance at close range too, 3-5 round strings holding about an A zone as fast as I can pull the trigger out to say 20 yd, and I want the gun to return so I can shoot reactively (i.e. reacting to the sight returning to the target) for strings out to 40, 60, 80 offhand. There's a sweet spot for sure, obviously I don't want to add weights to the gun since I need to be able to carry it for miles, shoot it in awkward positions, etc Weird. My super light rifle doesn’t move at all and I’m hammering double Alphas without issue at those ranges. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By LostBoy7n6: Ever seen an AKM,AK74,AK100 barrel? Thinner than .625 . Never hear AK owners complain Because accuracy sucks anyways. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By MRW: The faxon pencil barrels are known to have LESS drift when hot. They seem to have their heat treatment technique nailed down. Ehhh… their pencil barrels aren’t that great unless you’re willing to make comprises for extreme weight savings. Their Gunner profile is far superior if you’re going to getting it hot and then stretching to 500/600 yards. I’ve won a pile of matches with one. Overall, the Criterion CORE is superior, though for a modest weight increase. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Ehhh… their pencil barrels aren’t that great unless you’re willing to make comprises for extreme weight savings. Their Gunner profile is far superior if you’re going to getting it hot and then stretching to 500/600 yards. I’ve won a pile of matches with one. Overall, the Criterion CORE is superior, though for a modest weight increase. Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By MRW: The faxon pencil barrels are known to have LESS drift when hot. They seem to have their heat treatment technique nailed down. Ehhh… their pencil barrels aren’t that great unless you’re willing to make comprises for extreme weight savings. Their Gunner profile is far superior if you’re going to getting it hot and then stretching to 500/600 yards. I’ve won a pile of matches with one. Overall, the Criterion CORE is superior, though for a modest weight increase. Agree on Gunner profile. Big fan, that should be the standard cut, not the terrible A2 profile. |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Ehhh… their pencil barrels aren’t that great unless you’re willing to make comprises for extreme weight savings. Their Gunner profile is far superior if you’re going to getting it hot and then stretching to 500/600 yards. I’ve won a pile of matches with one. Overall, the Criterion CORE is superior, though for a modest weight increase. The couple I've had were perfectly fine |
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Weight is the enemy with cars & also with rifles IMO. My 12.5" SBR 4 lb build is my main and favorite AR. The 4 lbs is before optic and can. Running a PA 3x microprism (8oz) + offset Holosun micro red dot and Scythe Ti can (7.3oz). I didn't go as nuts with weight reduction on my 11.5" backup, but still light. My 16" G SD is heavy as hell and only gets shot from a bench. My 1st "lightweight" build was my 14.5". I didn't go as hard with that one so it's a couple lbs heavier than the 12.5", but I wish I did go as hard. Hindsight is 20/20! |
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I definitely helps with the balance of the rifle. My M16A1 clone is one of my favorite rifles to take hiking simply because it’s light and balanced well. I can carry it all day without even slinging it up, and it points very well when shouldering it. Secondly, as a dirty civilian that is not limited to whatever the military issues me; I will put whatever barrel I please in my rifles within the confines of my personal budget. 
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Did 4 tours of the Cola Wars
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Originally Posted By RacingOrange: Weight is the enemy with cars & also with rifles IMO. My 12.5" SBR 4 lb build is my main and favorite AR. The 4 lbs is before optic and can. Running a PA 3x microprism (8oz) + offset Holosun micro red dot and Scythe Ti can (7.3oz). I didn't go as nuts with weight reduction on my 11.5" backup, but still light. My 16" G SD is heavy as hell and only gets shot from a bench. My 1st "lightweight" build was my 14.5". I didn't go as hard with that one so it's a couple lbs heavier than the 12.5", but I wish I did go as hard. Hindsight is 20/20! Weight is extremely beneficial to help steady the rifle when you're panting and your heart rate is up in the field. |
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Originally Posted By RacingOrange: Weight is the enemy with cars & also with rifles IMO. My 12.5" SBR 4 lb build is my main and favorite AR. The 4 lbs is before optic and can. Running a PA 3x microprism (8oz) + offset Holosun micro red dot and Scythe Ti can (7.3oz). I didn't go as nuts with weight reduction on my 11.5" backup, but still light. My 16" G SD is heavy as hell and only gets shot from a bench. My 1st "lightweight" build was my 14.5". I didn't go as hard with that one so it's a couple lbs heavier than the 12.5", but I wish I did go as hard. Hindsight is 20/20! My favorite rifle is about 11# with optics and suppressor. Serves me well so far in competition. |
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Was shooting the other day. Checked zeros at 200m and then groups at 300m. Brought out my A1 clone (all colt but for a PSA HRA lower). Reminded me of old days…..light, handy and just irons. 5 rounds after not being shot in at least a year and the result was a nicely center group on the 300m B27 target. Refreshing actually. Light is actually nice. May need to look into making a M177 now. |
“You either know and understand history or you trust the government. You can’t do both”
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Originally Posted By LineOfDeparture: A rifle should be heavy enough to beat someone to death. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013380-3630966.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013382-3630965.jpg You can do that with this and its 8 oz Attached File |
“You either know and understand history or you trust the government. You can’t do both”
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: What the hell are you talking about? Lots of people use lightweight rifles in the shooting sports. My 2-Gun stick is barely 5#. When people talk about how well their lightweight rifle shoots it usually has some huge 4 port boomerbrake but please indulge |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: When people talk about how well their lightweight rifle shoots it usually has some huge 4 port boomerbrake but please indulge I just have a DeadAir brake on it for the occasional stage where I use a can. Otherwise it’s a 14.8” rifle gas with super light internals. Even the buffer is just a polymer rod. Most of the recoil/movement reduction is from lowering the reciprocating weight. I shoot with some dudes who think heavier rifles are better… then I run up 15-20% on them. It basically shoots like a .22. This is what I use for out to 300 yards. Beyond that I have the same upper with a Kahles 1-6. That’ll get me to 600 with a 70gr RDF. Attached File You can run a 13# rifle and it’ll certainly be benign. That’s awesome for a beginner, but it sucks if you want to go fast. It’s like driving a smogged down 1974 Plymouth. But 1974 Plymouths don’t win races. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By LineOfDeparture: A rifle should be heavy enough to beat someone to death. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013380-3630966.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013382-3630965.jpg Major 2010ish GWOT vibes. I got an NDSM just looking at this.
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connoisseur of fine Soviet and European armored vehicles since 2007.
We are all dogs in God’s hot car of life
Thank you UKjohn for the membership!
We are all dogs in God’s hot car of life
Thank you UKjohn for the membership!
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Originally Posted By scottrh2: You can do that with this and its 8 oz https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/103595/IMG_2334_jpeg-3790252.JPG |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
General education should not be mere job training, but training in how to be fully human.
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Originally Posted By MRW: This is Post of the Day Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By scottrh2: You can do that with this and its 8 oz https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/103595/IMG_2334_jpeg-3790252.JPG We are talking about rifles. Not your daughter's hammers. |
To those who have gone before us. May we earn what they have given.
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Originally Posted By LineOfDeparture: A rifle should be heavy enough to beat someone to death. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013380-3630966.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/310196/1000013382-3630965.jpg That seems about right for a 203. 3lbs? My go to 14.5 is 9.5 unloaded Attached File So 10.5 loaded. |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: I just have a DeadAir brake on it for the occasional stage where I use a can. Otherwise it’s a 14.8” rifle gas with super light internals. Even the buffer is just a polymer rod. Most of the recoil/movement reduction is from lowering the reciprocating weight. I shoot with some dudes who think heavier rifles are better… then I run up 15-20% on them. It basically shoots like a .22. This is what I use for out to 300 yards. Beyond that I have the same upper with a Kahles 1-6. That’ll get me to 600 with a 70gr RDF. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/241349/IMG_7356_jpeg-3790297.JPG You can run a 13# rifle and it’ll certainly be benign. That’s awesome for a beginner, but it sucks if you want to go fast. It’s like driving a smogged down 1974 Plymouth. But 1974 Plymouths don’t win races. It depends on the shooting sport. Hosing close range targets will trend toward totally different builds than precision gas gun matches. In precision matches, guys are actually adding brass weights to their rifles (ironically, a lot of them are using proof barrels for the weight savings too...it doesn't really make sense). |
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Because the heat drift isn't meaningfully worse than an hbar for the style of shooting I do with an AR. And if for some reason I really needed better heat dissipation I'd get a jp heatsink on a pencil barrel A 14.5 m4a1 isn't very conducive to effective auto/frt fire at distance anyway. A 20" HBAR with a bipod way out at the front is |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: It depends on the shooting sport. Hosing close range targets will trend toward totally different builds than precision gas gun matches. In precision matches, guys are actually adding brass weights to their rifles (ironically, a lot of them are using proof barrels for the weight savings too...it doesn't really make sense). For a run and gun even out to range I'll take a lighter gun any day. If I'm jamming into/out of a position and shooting close range paper and transitioning to C-Zone steel standing at 250 yards or rooftop shots at 500, I'll still take a lighter front end any day. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Precision gas gun matches are a different environment altogether. But also doesn't really accurately reflect a generalized practical setting either unless you're talking about an SPR analog... in which case the "S" should be remembered to stand for "Special". I have heavy barreled rifles, too... But not for general use. For a run and gun even out to range I'll take a lighter gun any day. If I'm jamming into/out of a position and shooting close range paper and transitioning to C-Zone steel standing at 250 yards or rooftop shots at 500, I'll still take a lighter front end any day. Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By BrandonP: It depends on the shooting sport. Hosing close range targets will trend toward totally different builds than precision gas gun matches. In precision matches, guys are actually adding brass weights to their rifles (ironically, a lot of them are using proof barrels for the weight savings too...it doesn't really make sense). Precision gas gun matches are a different environment altogether. But also doesn't really accurately reflect a generalized practical setting either unless you're talking about an SPR analog... in which case the "S" should be remembered to stand for "Special". I have heavy barreled rifles, too... But not for general use. For a run and gun even out to range I'll take a lighter gun any day. If I'm jamming into/out of a position and shooting close range paper and transitioning to C-Zone steel standing at 250 yards or rooftop shots at 500, I'll still take a lighter front end any day. And thats where everyone has there own jam. Backpack hunting with a remington m7 for one season had me sell it. The guy who bought it loves it. |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Why not? The government does. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Originally Posted By backbencher: OP, I don't carry around 210 rounds of ammo and ceramic Level 4 plates in an uparmored Humvee either. I was never infantry, and am never going to be infantry. A pencil barrel will serve me and my ammunition budget just fine. Should my ammo budget increase and I can suddenly afford a 5.56 w/ an FRT, I certainly won't use a gov't profile 14.5" barrel for it. Why not? The government does. B/c the 14.5" gov't barrel is optimized for all round Infantry use, including bayonet use. It's front heavy, instead of putting the mass closer to the chamber where the heat is. If I got into FRT mag dumps, I'd use heavy barrel profiles, probably from a bipod. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: B/c the 14.5" gov't barrel is optimized for all round Infantry use, including bayonet use. It's front heavy, instead of putting the mass closer to the chamber where the heat is. If I got into FRT mag dumps, I'd use heavy barrel profiles, probably from a bipod. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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I think we need to define pencil, lightweight, medium and heavy barrels, and give examples. Does a .625 GB automatically mean pencil, even if the barrels a thick taper from the chamber. When I hear pencil, I think true pencil, same thickness from chamber to muzzle, .625 GB. What about BCM ELW tapered barrels, or BA Hanson tapered barrels. True pencil - super skinny from chamber to muzzle .625 GB - this would be a no-go for me - especially suppressed. Whip and heat/POI shift galore. https://faxonfirearms.com/15A58M16NPQ Lightweight but not pencil https://faxonfirearms.com/15A58M125NGQ I think Griffin Armament barrels are a solid medium contour - .750 GB and pretty much no taper, just thicker pre-GB. https://griffinarmament.com/product/griffin-12-5-416r-223-wylde-hedp-barrel/ This Rosco K9 12.5 could be considered a heavy barrel. While tapered, it is FAT from the chamber and retains a .750 GB journal to the muzzle. https://www.roscomanufacturing.com/shop/barrels/k9-barrels/k9-12-5-sage-dynamics-5-56-nato/ |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: How does that help when using a bayonet.... exactly? If I remember correctly, the thicker barrel began with the A2, they found the thicker part of the barrel up front made it more durable for rough or bayonet use. Marine PIP. |
If you are putting a lot of effort into arguing with me, you are probably really just wasting your time, sorry.
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Originally Posted By zentradi: If I remember correctly, the thicker barrel began with the A2, they found the thicker part of the barrel up front made it more durable for rough or bayonet use. Marine PIP. |
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Originally Posted By zentradi: If I remember correctly, the thicker barrel began with the A2, they found the thicker part of the barrel up front made it more durable for rough or bayonet use. Marine PIP. No, it does not. 1) If you stick an M16 with a bayonet fixed into a tree to the hilt and push on the butt, or pistol grip the bayonet will break before you permanently bend the barrel. 2) The exposed portion of an M14 barrel is structurally weaker than the exposed portion of an M16 barrel. No one ever claimed to have bent an M14 barrel opening ammo crates. 3) The part of the barrel under the most bending stress from the bayonet is at the barrel nut. 4) The Army's decision to make the barrel forward of the front sight thicker was solely based on cosmetic reasons: to make the barrel look beefier and stiffer. EDIT: the "improvement" in balance was a retroactive justification after people realize how stupid the original reason was. Nobody ever complained about "how badly the M16A1 was balanced" . . . 5) The M4 kept that barrel profile so the MILES transmitter (modified to fit the M16A2 barrel at great expense) would still fit without further modification. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: It was a mere gas port burr that interfered with the straightness gauge. The A2 is stronger there, but the need is debateable. This is the correct answer - check out post #24 |
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Most of the people who don't like lightweight barrels have not owned one. A pencil barrel is great for hitting realistic sized targets under 300 yards with semi auto fire, provided you dont need a can or to shoot more than two to three magazines at a time. I have a lightweight rifle set up for my wife that has a FF rail, is 100% covered in rail covers, has 3 QD sling points, an Aimpoint red dot sight, BUIS, and a custom Arisaka weapon light that is under 5.5 pounds as configured. It is a REAL rifle with collapsing stock, 3.2 oz buffer, 7075 recievers, steel bolt carrier, and G$ trigger. Not some fixed carbonfiber stock, titanium carrier gun with plastic FCG and plastic buffer. It runs like a top with 77 Razercore and I would carry it to defend myself without hesitation... even if it is a 3 MOA gun. To me, if you dont have a FRT, silencer, or magnification over 8x you are silly if you DONT run a lightweight barrel. |
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Originally Posted By DevL: Most of the people who don't like lightweight barrels have not owned one. A pencil barrel is great for hitting realistic sized targets under 300 yards with semi auto fire, provided you dont need a can or to shoot more than two to three magazines at a time. I have a lightweight rifle set up for my wife that has a FF rail, is 100% covered in rail covers, has 3 QD sling points, an Aimpoint red dot sight, BUIS, and a custom Arisaka weapon light that is under 5.5 pounds as configured. It is a REAL rifle with collapsing stock, 3.2 oz buffer, 7075 recievers, steel bolt carrier, and G$ trigger. Not some fixed carbonfiber stock, titanium carrier gun with plastic FCG and plastic buffer. It runs like a top with 77 Razercore and I would carry it to defend myself without hesitation... even if it is a 3 MOA gun. To me, if you dont have a FRT, silencer, or magnification over 8x you are silly if you DONT run a lightweight barrel. Who doesn’t run silencers? |
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Who doesn’t run silencers? Originally Posted By Brahmzy: Originally Posted By DevL: Most of the people who don't like lightweight barrels have not owned one. A pencil barrel is great for hitting realistic sized targets under 300 yards with semi auto fire, provided you dont need a can or to shoot more than two to three magazines at a time. I have a lightweight rifle set up for my wife that has a FF rail, is 100% covered in rail covers, has 3 QD sling points, an Aimpoint red dot sight, BUIS, and a custom Arisaka weapon light that is under 5.5 pounds as configured. It is a REAL rifle with collapsing stock, 3.2 oz buffer, 7075 recievers, steel bolt carrier, and G$ trigger. Not some fixed carbonfiber stock, titanium carrier gun with plastic FCG and plastic buffer. It runs like a top with 77 Razercore and I would carry it to defend myself without hesitation... even if it is a 3 MOA gun. To me, if you dont have a FRT, silencer, or magnification over 8x you are silly if you DONT run a lightweight barrel. Who doesn’t run silencers? I don't.  But most of my ARs do have A1 profile barrels.
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Originally Posted By mcantu: What's the weight difference between a stripped 16" pencil barrel and a govt profile one? 6oz. |
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Originally Posted By Brahmzy: I think we need to define pencil, lightweight, medium and heavy barrels, and give examples. Does a .625 GB automatically mean pencil, even if the barrels a thick taper from the chamber. When I hear pencil, I think true pencil, same thickness from chamber to muzzle, .625 GB. What about BCM ELW tapered barrels, or BA Hanson tapered barrels. .............. |
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