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Posted: 11/22/2004 11:11:32 AM EDT
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OK, these are purely musings, but why would an explosive tip round not be practical for military use. Why would it not be possible to substitute, for instance, the steel penetrator in the tip of the M855 SS109 projectile with a tiny cone of Semtex/C4 with a microprimer detonator. Only enough to make a tiny yet lethal detonation upon impact, with little or no collateral damage. Would that not increase the lethality, shock effect and materiel destructive capabilities without adding additional weight or equipment. You could give them a distinctive marking, like a violet painted tip, for special use, or just make them your standard issue. I know about the Hague Convention and all that, by which we abide but are not signatory, but I don't see how an explosive tip 5.56mm round is more inhumane or cruel than a .50 cal Ball round or 25mm Depleted uranium projectile that we use all the time against enemy combatants. Why is this not on the horizon of small arms development? It just seems logical as the next big thing in small arms ammuniton development. |
Operation Orders for the use of .50 cal rifles in Iraq must be written to reflect use as an anti-materiel weapon. Beleive it or not, it is a no-no to shoot people with a 50. Having said that, the cell phone that guy was using (holding up to his ear) had to be taken out, right? The cell phone is materiel, right? |
actually it wouldn't be illegal. Raufoss .50 has RDX (a high explosive) in it, but because it is below the regulated amount it is not illegal to possess. It wouldn't work worth a shit, but it wouldn't be illegal. |
Got written proof for that? Like an opinion from the JAG? That has to be one of the militaries biggest myths. They shoot at people with 25mm and 120mm if needed. |
Why? What more could that do than a standard M855? |
+11.37 I hate that myth. |
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No government would sign any international "treaty" that would handicap their soldiers that much. Even ours, which has done ridiculous things in the past. What, 3 Nazis are charging your position, all you have remaining is a .50 BMG, and you're supposed to shrug, say "sorry, can't shoot ya," and surrender? That's just dumb. |
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OK, DR, you got me ponderin' this idea. What we're talking about here is a 5.56 mm cannon round, right? As much as I think about it, I don't see how that small of a shaped charge would be any more effective than the M855 round itself. And if we start talking about any kind of SpecOps stuff (about which I'm clueless, so bear with me), I'd have to assume they'd be able to bring better toys to the objective than rifles throwing M855s downrange. Granted, I find this bullet design fascinating ! However, my limited mind can't see its usefulness at present. I'm sure others with greater cognitive abilities will show me where I'm missing its potential. |
Ummm, I think we all have watched the video of an Apache targeting three enemy combatants with a 30mm chain gun, and they certainly weren't targeting equipment. I believe this is one of the biggest myths of all time (that and the 5.56mm was designed specifically to wound people myth) |
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The .50 Cal is okay to use against enemy personnel. Read this: On 6 May 2004, Marine Capt. Brian R. Chontosh of Rochester, N.Y., received the Navy Cross "for extraordinary heroism while serving as Combined Anti-Armor Platoon Commander, Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom March 25, 2003." While leading his platoon north on Highway 1 toward Ad Diwaniyah, Chontosh's platoon moved into a coordinated ambush of mortars, rocket propelled grenades and automatic weapons fire. With coalition tanks blocking the road ahead, he realized his platoon was caught in a kill zone. He had his driver move the vehicle through a breach along his flank, where he was immediately taken under fire from an entrenched machine gun. Without hesitation, Chontosh ordered the driver to advance directly at the enemy position, enabling his .50 caliber machine gunner to silence the enemy. He then directed his driver into the enemy trench, where he exited his vehicle and began to clear the trench with an M16A2 service rifle and 9 millimeter pistol. His ammunition depleted, Chontosh, with complete disregard for his safety, twice picked up discarded enemy rifles and continued his ferocious attack. When a Marine following him found an enemy rocket propelled grenade launcher, Chontosh used it to destroy yet another group of enemy soldiers. When his audacious attack ended, he had cleared over 200 meters of the enemy trench, killing more than 20 enemy soldiers and wounding several others. And here is a JAG briefing saying it's okay (pdf file): www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/parks2.pdf |
My friend said they were told that enemy belt buckles were valuable material so they should aim at them with their .50 cals. 
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There are few references to .50 Cal use in "My War:" "I was the T.C. for our vehicle, my job is to be behind the .50 cal, and operate the system, which allows me to fire it. This was only my second day as a T.C. Sitting right next to me out the hatch was my Plt Sgt.. Shortly as we were driving down the main street leaving our FOB, a man, dressed in all black, jumped out from the side corner of a building, pointed his AK47 right at me. Right at my fucking head and all I saw was the fire from his muzzle flash leaving the end of his barrel and brass shell casings exiting the side of his AK as he was shooting directly at me. I heard and felt the bullets whiz literally inches from my head, hitting all around my hatch and 50 cal mount making a "Ping" "Ping" "Ping" sound. I ducked the fucked down in the hatch. I yelled "We're taking fire! 3 O'clock!!! Turned the gun around towards where the guy was and fired a burst... "...I fired the .50 cal over the place, shooting everything. My driver was helping me out and pointing out targets to me over the radio. He helped me a lot that day. They were all over shooting at us. My PLT was stuck right smack dab in the middle of the ambush and we were in the kill zone. We shot our way out of it and drove right through the ambush. The street we were driving down to escape, had 3 to 4 story high buildings all along each side, as we were driving away all you could see were 100's and 100's of bullets impacting all over these buildings." cbftw.blogspot.com/ |
There are lots of active duty military personnel who repeat and/or perpetuate the rumors. I can't tell you how many times I have heard from a fellow soldier that my weapon was designed to wound, not to kill. |
...and ask him where he heard it in the first place. An uncle's neighbor's cousin's friend-in-law's mother's milkman? This can't possibly be something the U.S. Government would agree to abide by. Where is it written down to be mandated? |
Hey I've had several NCOs tell me the same thing with I was a soldier. Just because some MGS heard it when he was a PFC, and continues to repeat it, doesn't make it so. If he told you 5.56 rounds do their dammage by tumbling and ricocheting around the body would you beleive that as well? BTW Marine Sniper Carlos Hathcock use a .50BMG for sniping for a mission or two in Vietnam (at the time it was the longest sniper shot). IIRC the Canadian Snipers that helped out the US Army in Afghanistand also used .50 cal sniper rifles. Show me the letter from the USMC or US Army JAG that says you can't shoot personnel with a .50. |
As someone already mentioned, you'd be better off with the steel, or better yet, tungsten penetrator than high explosives for penetrating a steel target. It takes quite a bit of explosives to penetrate steel plates using a shaped charge. In Tenney L. Davis' book The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives (search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=O9t162IGsa&isbn=0913022004&itm=3), they have some picture of what detonators placed on lead and aluminum plates will do. The plates are only 3mm in diameter and are penetrated with a standard No. 8 blasting cap. You could maybe penetrate a steel helmet but there is no way you could fit enough explosives in a 5.56mm bullet to obtain the same results. If a 5.56mm bullet stuffed with explosives detonated on the surface of the skin, there would be very little damage and certainly nothing incapacitating. If the military could have done it, and it was worth it, they would have done it by now. IMHO only. |
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Yeah. Too bad most of the people our military fights these days don't give a rat's ass about their 'buddy' and whether or not he dies. 
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This may have been true when battles had front lines that were static for long periods. But the battles we fight now have fronts that move at the speed of the Abrams tank. Wound an enemy in a battle with a fast moving front and it's OUR medical people that care for him, not our enemy's. |
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