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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First AR15: Buy vs. Build? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/25/2005 9:24:25 AM EDT
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Hi all, I'm shopping for an AR-15 (my first), and I'd like to get your input/recommendations about buying vs. building one. (When I say "build", I really mean "assembling" compatible parts - I'm NOT a gunsmith by any means!) I don't know what it really takes to build one, so please excuse my ignorance if my assumption that I can just buy parts (upper, lower, barrel, stock, etc.) and assemble them is incorrect. I'd like to build one (eventually) because I think I'd enjoy learning how to put it together myself and customizing it the way I want it. I'm considering the possibility of purchasing my first AR as a whole, then gradually customizing it as I decide what I like and what I want... and maybe building one from scratch later. Here are my thoughts so far -- please feel free to add to them and share your advice. BUY pros: - quick, easy - I can customize parts later as time/money is available, after I've decided what I like/dislike about the stock parts cons: - higher base cost (?) - higher cost after factoring in the complete rifle + custom parts BUILD pros: - I can customize it from the start - fun learning experience cons: - steep learning curve, since I've never done this before - lower overall cost (?) - much more time involved in shopping for individual parts I'm sure I can think of more pros and cons for both options, but this is my short list. I'd love to hear your advice and experience. Thanks! |
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Welcome to the site! Regarding build or buy, do both. Buy a complete upper and build your lower. Building the lower is easy, fun and a learning experience. You can customize your pistol grip and stock. Building the lower requires no special tools. Well, unless you don't own any roll-pin punches. And if you need to buy them, they are relatively inexpensive. Depending on the stock you want, you might need a stock wrench. But those are cheap. You can install a collapsible stock without the wrench, but the wrench makes it easier and less likely that you'll screw up something. Building the upper takes a little more know-how and DOES require special tools. You'll need an upper receiver vice block and barrel wrench at a minimum. If you need to install the Delta ring assembly you'll want to use snap-ring pliers. Figure the cost of those tools into the cost of the rifle.  This forum has a Hometown section. Go to the SC Hometown and see if there are any local guys who can give you a hand. Building is fun. However, if you only plan to build one or two rifles, you might be better off borrowing the tools from someone local or just buy complete uppers and build the lowers yourself. I'm in NE GA. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. Mark |
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I could probably build a rifle quicker than ordering one from a dealer/factory. I get what I want, when I want pretty much. You could always run down to the local gun shop and rummage through what they have down there, and get one today, but it would likely not be what I initially wanted and I'd be compromising on something, I'm sure. Having said all of that, for a newb, I'd recommend a good quality factory rifle. Get to know this one, it's function, how it's put together and comes apart, etc., etc. If you then feel the need for another, that's the ideal time to do your first build, because if you are going for number two, number three isn't that far behind, neither is number four, or five or six..........................................
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I agree. Depending on what you want, you can usually cruise the gunshows and find a good rifle at a decent price. You will have a rifle built by someone who knew what they were doing. And a basis for learning. I suggest finding one that will make a good beater. It doesn't have to be exactly what you want. It just has to let you put a lot of rounds down range, and hold up to being messed with. After that, you should be able to build exactly the rifle you want. As far as saving money by building over buying. If you don't have at least a few basic tools, you'll need to figure that into your costs as well. |
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I would check out the picture thread on ar15.com, read some good magazines, like SWAT, and go to some gun shows before I did anything. You need to have an idea of how you want your weapon adorned first. Most of the ARs at gunshows are not customized. What you tend to see is right out of the box weapons that dealers ordered from the factories on spec (think of a bunch of white Ford pickups with AM radios). After the AWB expired, I bought an A3 Bushy with a 20" HBAR barrel first, then had the barrel free floated, and added a RRA 2-stage trigger and a Hogue grip. I also installed a Leupold MR/T 3-9X scope. Overall, a very nice M16 lookalike weapon. For my second AR, I bought a Rock River M4gery. It already had a 2-stage trigger, Hogue grip and quad rail free floated barrel installed from the factory. I just added a sling, rail covers, vertical grip and a scope and I'm ready for SHTF. The first "big" thing you want to decide is whether you want a 20" barrel, full length AR (similar to an M16) or a 16" barrel M4gery with a collapsible stock. The M4gery is very popular due to its lighter weight, and shorter overall length. You will probably pay more for the M4. You also need to decide whether you want a chrome lined barrel or a chrome moly barrel. There are pros and cons for both. Also, decide whether the barrel will be free floated, and whether you intend to add a scope or use iron sights. So, you have a few choices to make, but buying one nearly done is not a bad way to go. Cheers. |
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I bought my first. I wanted RRA parts and when I added these up, I couldn't compete w/ the price from one of the boards dealers. If I get another itch that need's scratching, I'll build. People I respect on the board, here, recommended buying a complete 'brand name' rifle to take to tactical carbine courses (one of my goals). FWIW, I had a great buying experience w/ Chris at Eaglefirearms.net. Jake |
I jumped off the cliff and purchased 3 stag lowers right off the bat. With transfer fee and background check added in it was $300 even. So $100 per lower. For my first I got a Del-ton A2 kit with chrome lined barrel and my complete total for that rifle was right at about $600including the one lower. I enjoyed assembling the lower and understand the internals because of it. Still have the other two stripped lowers, got my concealed license about the same time so my excess funds lately have gone into two carry guns and holsters but I have big plans  M4 type platform next on my list then maybe a varmint set-up. Too many plans, not enough cash.
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I'm gonna slightly disagree. While I wouldn't recommend throwing together an upper on your first AR, I would definitely tell you to put the LPK and stock on the lower. I did it last January (2004) at 17. That was about 11 months before I found this site. Surprisingly, I got it right the first time, and it works pretty well. I think your best bet for building one would be to get a kit (which is what I did) that already has the upper assembled, and get a cheaper lower like Stag, Superior Arms, Ameetec, Mega, etc., etc. If you have a mechanical bone in your body, you won't have a problem. Just make sure to take your time, and put the right springs in the right holes. WIZZO |
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Thanks for all the replies so far (and please don't stop)... I must say that so far I like BookHound's suggestion (that a couple of you echoed) best. Sounds like a good compromise. Florence (SC) doesn't have many gun shops, and I believe we only have a gun show here once a year or so... With that in mind, what's the best way to go about getting the parts I would need? I haven't been shopping recently, so I'm not sure how much of an AR selection any of the local shops have. I'll try to get out sometime this week and check. I understand that a lower assembly must be purchased through an FFL, but the other parts could potentially be ordered online. (Semi-related question: what about online dealers that sell complete guns and/or lowers online? How does that work?) I'm guessing that BookHound's suggestion calls for a "stripped" lower with more parts and assembly required...? EDIT: Where can kits (as Wizzo mentioned) be purchased? Any other opinions about the kit option? Please pardon the noob questions. I really appreciate all your responses... I'm learning. :) |
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I got a kit from one of the site sponsors. Best idea ever. It is my first and only AR. Few can tell I went the kit route unless I tell them. In putting it all together I pretty much know how it works. I'm fairly confident I could fix almost any problem with the rifle. Function check as you go and you'll see what everything does, it is pretty cool. |
This is the only part on an AR that has to be handled by an FFL dealer. People that order rifles online (or buy them on Gunbroker or the EE) have to have their local FFL dealer send a copy of their License to the person (or other dealer) selling the rifle or lower while you send payment for what you just bought. The seller will send the rifle (or lower) to your local FFL dealer and the dealer will typically charge a fee (called a transfer fee). These typically run $20-$25 or more for their time. Hope this clears up some things. Here are the links above, I just made them hot. J&T Distributing Del-Ton WIZZO |
If you are in South Carolina, contact Henry at Title2.com, thats who I got my lowers from, great service, this only applies if he is still dealing with Stag lowers as far as my advice goes. He might be close enough to you for you to physically buy them from him. |
I love it when guys say "build, you will save money" but forget to factor in the special tools you'll need to buy (unless they can be borrowed).  As far as kits go, we have many site supporters here that offer kits or complete lowers and everything else you'll need to assemble the rifle. I personally like RRA and Bushmaster parts. You'll pay more for the Bushy stuff. Any quality stripped lower will work well with a RRA lower parts kit. My favorite vendors are Grant at G&R Tactical and Chris & Kendra over at Eagle Firearms. Pete in NH (Legal Transfers) has also served me well. Of these, Eagle & Pete sell RRA stuff. Grant will do custom uppers for ya. I have no experience with ADCO and limited experience with Del-ton, but I would not hesitate to order from either of them. Make a list of what features you want and spend some time shopping these vendors. Go to your Hometwon section and ask the locals what guys in your area will do transfers (for the stripped lower). The transfer fee should be between $10 and $20 (probably closer to $20). If you buy everything (including the lower) from one vendor, have everything but the lower shipped to you. I wouldn't bother having all the non-FFL parts shipped to the FFL. Make note some of these dealers I mentioned will offer free shipping on certain items or offer little incentives (like Pete was - still is? - offering a free stock wrench when you buy a RRA 6-position stock). Hope this helps. Mark |
Be careful, if you are posting here and you build. You could get BRD (Black Rifle Disease). Then you will need to have another rifle in a different configuration. Then you will need a couple of dozen mags, then you will want a red dot sight or an optic. Then a light... it just gets worse.  Welcome to the boards  You will have fun if you build. I built my second rifle, just the lower and I had such a feeling of accomplishment after the lower was built, put the stock on and slapped the upper on. |
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Well, since you probably will end up with more than one AR, do what I am doing and do both a complete build and complete rifle buy. The first thing I bought was a stripped Stag lower, with plans to build my first AR. Wasn't sure what type of AR I was going to build it into. Then I fell into a great deal on a DPMS AP4 M4gery, so I bought that too. Now that I've got a fully usable rifle, I am gathering parts to complete my build, and have decided I'm going to build up a "Service Rifle" A2 to try my hand at competition. To that end I've added a Colt A2 buttstock assembly, and am ordering an RRA LPK with NM 2-stage trigger. Then all I have to get is the upper. Oh yeah, I'm also looking at a possible deal on a Bushmaster 20" A4 - funny how these black rifles seem to multiply  Dave |
| Thanks again for all the replies. I've started looking at some kits, to get an idea of what options are available and their relative prices, etc. Can any of you recommend a good resource (on this site or others) that shows/describes differences between some of the options for various parts? For example: A1 vs. A2 flashhiders, or A2 vs. A3 uppers -- these are the only examples I can think of right now, and I already know the differences between those particular parts. A lot of parts seem to have "A1", "A2", "A3" designations, and I'd like to see (pics) what the differences are. I've looked through the "most important threads" thread and several others, but I haven't come across what I'm looking for. I'm not asking to re-start a thread that's already out there; I'd just like for a forum "veteran" to point me to an existing thread, if there is one. |
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Building your AR is a wonderful experiance. Any true warrior, wether defending is home or his lines or his empty hole in the gun safe, will know his weapon in and out, front and back. To build would be the best way to do it. I've found that after a few hundred rounds, I trust my home builds much more then i do my factory guns. Most of the time it is cheaper too. All that and I'm gonna tell you something different. For your first AR, go ahead and buy a good one and a bunch of ammo. Shoot it, clean it, play with it. After a while you will know exactly what you want (or black rifle diesese will kick in) and you will want another. Use the build it yourself board on here and build one with everything you want on it. Then...you shall be happy. And then....you will find another one you want.....and you shall be happy 
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This reminds me, Kyle and I finally built my lower last night. Not too hard, but lost the detent on the pivot pin |
M16 Upper  M16A1 upper  C7 (Canadian) Upper  M16A2  And finally, an A3 (or A4 whichever the guys in the private sector want to call it)  Then there's the A1 stock.  And the A2 stock (5/8" longer than A1)  I know there are probably other things to know but this is a good start. BTW, anyone, feel free to correct me if I made a mistake.......it's late.....or early, however you look at it, I haven't had much sleep WIZZO |
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I would go against conventional wisdom here and say get a complete factory rifle as a '1st AR15'. This a firearm after all, and potentially dangerous if not carefully undertaken. You are admittedly not an armorer- nor do you need to be to make one possible - but the things you learn about an AR along the way (a factory gun) will be most valuable when you do build your first one. I doubt you would save much money building either. Some, but not a lot. Just wanted to offer the other side of this popular dilemma. and either way............you will love the end result |
Amatures! I built two lowers AT THE RANGE for BRF and didn't lose a single damn thing. (Well, to be fair ghost-shooter did help.  )Glad you got it together, bro. Now go shoot it! |
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My suggestion: Buy an assembled Stag lower. All the lowers are pretty much the same, as long as they're forged. I think Eagle Firearms builds with RRA parts kits. Whatever they use, my Stag has the best stock trigger of all my ARs, although the Armalite trigger is not far behind. I built my first lower, and the hastle really wasn't worth it for saving only $15. Eagle even sells them with the 6-position stocks now I see. Unless you want a varmint/target upper, get one with chrome-lined bore. There are a couple vendons in the equpment exchange that will build exactly what you want, or damn close to it. Should probaly avoid the heavy barrels too. Then you can change little things, like the pistol grip and what not. You'll have some extra part then, but it's usually cheaper to get all the little lower receiver parts as a kit, even if you don't need all of it. |
| I built my first recently with no problems, used a complete upper with bolt assembly and stripped lower. DSG Arms has the high quality cav arms uppers in stock and ship same day. The only tools I had to buy were a pin punch set and a little brass hammer. I'd check the feel of the A-1, A-2 stocks if possible. |
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Thanks, Suburban... That's sort of what I've been shopping for/pricing today. Except that I think I want to get the upper assembly, stripped lower and lower parts kit, and assemble the lower receiver myself. Not to save money really, but for the fun/learning experience. I figure that from there I can start adding and swapping out particular parts as I decide what I like and what I want. What do you guys think about this combo, as a start: RRA or Stag stripped lower and lower parts kit RRA CAR A4 Upper - chrome lined barrel, no carry handle, std charging handle, A2 front sight, (?)quad rail free float handguard(/?) RRA 6-pos stock I think that comes out to somewhere in the $800-900 ballpark, using the dealers linked above... probably lower after I shop other dealers' prices. The quad rail free-float handguard is a fairly big add-on expense, and I'd especially like to hear your (everyone's) opinions about that, compared to the other options available for that upper kit (see link). It's probably a bit much for a first build, but it looks so versatile... I figure if I'd end up upgrading to it later, I might as well go ahead and get it now. Am I forgetting any parts? Any reason why those wouldn't be compatible? And maybe soon after, a Hogue grip (the standard grip is ok, but the Hogue looks much more comfy). Any strong suggestions/objections? I'm looking for a little bit of a challenge (building the lower), but nothing too complicated or expensive for my first build. |
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All of my present AR's were built by me. BUT, for YOU and YOUR first AR, I would highly suggest a factory built rifle. You will be more assured of having a rifle that functions correctly the first time. This will get you up and shooting asap. You will have access to factory warranty, if needed. For your second rifle, sure, go on and build exactly what you want. Further, I would suggest that for your first AR-15, get a 20" rifle, or if you get a 16" carbine, get one with a "mid length" upper. These tend to run a bit smoother, with fewer extraction problems. For example, on a 20" rifle, port pressure is about HALF of the port pressure of a carbine. The "mid length" 16" uppers run at pressures about halfway between the carbine and rifle. On the other hand, carbines are much more reliable these days than in years past. Armalite and Rock River Arms offer mid length 16" options. Also, I would suggest getting your first AR-15 with an A3 (aka "flattop") upper receiver and do get the detachable carry handle with it, or a "stand alone" rear sight such as the DPMS below (and there are other similar rear sights) that are like the sight portion cut off the detachable carry handle. http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=FT-RS  Learn to shoot it with the detachable handle, adjusting the iron sights, etc. Later, as you learn more about various sight options, Acog, Eotech, various scopes, read about these sights here on Arfcom and elsewhere, you can add them later, and STILL have your carry handle or detachable iron sight as a backup. And these various other sights will mount far easier to a flattop than an A2 carry handle. Don't hang a bunch of gingerbread on your first AR. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!). Forget about free float tubes, bipods, lasers, etc. Spend your spare change on good ammo, and especially, good mags. By "good ammo", I mean brass cased, 55 gr fmj. Does not have to be high priced. My rule of thumb is, buy only ammo made in the USA, Israel, or South Africa (though that supply has dried up and gone). Another stated wisely, don't buy ammo from any country where you wouldn't drink the water. Read the ammo FAQ. Plain jane 55 gr fmj (aka M193 or XM193) will feed smoothly, and give good terminal performance for both casual plinking and defensive situations. Read the ammo FAQ. And last, read the Ammo FAQ. Read the magazine FAQ here. I advise buying only "USGI" mags, I prefer 30 rnd mags, but if you shoot prone, you may want a few 20 rnd mags. USGI means made by a govt contractor for the M16. Do not confuse with aftermarket mags such as the USA brand. "Green followers" are preferable, but the older black followers will work well. Two good sources, www.cmmginc.com and www.dsarms.com/. There are many more, but these two are where I shop for mags. These companies offer the teflon coated mags in black and gray, with options for extra power springs and different followers. The std green follower and spring work fine for me. |
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i built my first AR and i had alot of fun doing it, hardest part of doing so was picking the parts, i think i spent more time picking parts than i did ordering/waiting for mail, once i had all the parts it came together quite fast i did not save much money doing it my self i but i think i got a better rifle that and everyone was out of the m4gerys so it was really the only way i could get one with out a long wait.
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Stag and RRA are both made by CMT so you shouldn't have any problems. You will probably get the parts cheaper and quicker by getting them all from a dealer rather than Rock River directly. Eaglefirarms is a good choice. They sell a lot of RRA stuff and are good people. You should be able to do a basic carbine for $650 with standard handguards. |
Glad to hear you say that... I just placed an order through Eagle Firearms for a stripped Stag lower. I had it shipped to a dealer in Anderson... It'll probably get there by the time I decide on the other parts and get them shipped to me. |
The RRA upper is a little on the heavy side, and the Hogue grip is too small for me, but YMMV. I like the Sierra Precision grip. I bought my uppers without a rail handgard, but I'm going to retrofit at least one with rails. I like a superlight barrel, but an M4 profile that's thin under the handguards is good too. This seems to be the norm around here. |
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When I faced this same question 6 months ago I thought there was no way I could assemble a working AR. So I purchased a Bushmaster M4A3 and I don't regret it. Super gun functioning perfectly out of the box. With that said I've now built a lower using a stipped Stag as a base. Pretty easy to do with all the help available here. Now I'm saving money for a 20" upper. At this point I believe all future ARs will be home built. |
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Now I'm looking at handguard options. I think I want mid length, with quad rails for versatility. Free-floating doesn't look like something I really need right now, and I don't think I'd want to do it myself later. Most of the kit/upper dealers seem to only have 4Rail/FF combo handguards (if they offer 4Rails at all)... If I get standard handguards to start, can I replace them with quad rails without free-floating the barrel, or do the quad rails/free floating have to go together? I think the kit that's closest to what I want is the Del-Ton 16" kit with flat top upper, chrome barrel, M4 6-position stock, detachable A2 handle, Phantom 5C2 flash hider, and YHM 4 rail free float handguard: $680. I'm not sure about their handguard lengths though... but I think they're CAR-length. If anyone knows for sure, please let me know. I don't really want the short CAR-length handguards. A similar Model 1 kit without the chrome-lined barrel, and with an A2 flash hider is $655, but again, I'm not sure about the handguard length. I'd probably go with the Eagle Firearms RRA upper half and get the stock, lower parts kit, and quad rail handguards separately, but I want to make sure I can easily swap out the handguards. |
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You could get the standard mid-length (9-inch long) handguards and just upgrade later to the same length free floating rail handguard. I would recommend getting the two piece (upper & lower piece) that mounts on the barrel nut using machine screws like Troy, Samson and other similar types. All you have to do is remove or cut the delta ring assy. You don't have to have the barrel removed from the upper receiver like older one piece rails. CAR handguards are usually about 7 inches long, MID gas system are about 9 inches and rifle length are about 12 inches. Some guys customize theirs by using longer free float rails, but a low profile gas block have to be used. I have two Samson MRFS rails a mid 9-inch and a rifle length 12-inch for my upgrade and future builds. Good luck on your project. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First AR15: Buy vs. Build? (Page 1 of 2)
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