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Posted: 7/8/2005 5:35:41 PM EDT
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I'm new to this board and new to the world of combat carbines. I'm about to purchase my first and I am looking at two right now. One is the Wilson Combat M4-T w/quad rail and the other is the Les Baer Thunder Ranch. There is a significant gap in price between the two. Stock Wison runs about $1,800. To that I would add flip up front and rear sights bringing the total to about $2,100. Baer runs about $2,500 but includes the flip up sights. Baer states that thier model will shoot 1/2"MOA, and the Wilson is at 2" MOA. Use of the gun would be primarily target plinking with an additonal role as a home def. weapon. Would I go wrong with either, and is the Baer worth the extra money? After I learn to handle the weapon with the iron sights I intend to add an EO Tech site and SureFire scout light. I am also looking at urban rifle schools at either Thunder Ranch or Gunsit.e. Any comments on these choices would be welcome. Thanks. Post Edit – Thanks to everyone for the great information. It certainly has steered me in a different direction. Danner 130: Point well taken. I probably do have more money than sense, however I could use more of both, and with the advice of those here I have saved some money and added some sense. I want the best weapon I can afford. My measurement of best is certainly not what looks cool, how much it costs, or who’s name is on it. For me it is based on accuracy, reliability, and durability. My experience with LBC and WC on custom handguns has been excellent. When I started the search for an AR it was a natural place to look and then seek the opinion of those with the expertise. The overwhelming opinion here has been that AR’s manufactured by these two may be nice to own, but I can find the same qualities I’m looking for in a much less expensive weapon. LB |
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Don't know anyone personally who runs one of those expensive Les Baer/Wilson ARs. If you've got a big pile o money I bet they are pretty neat. However I also think you would be served perfectly well by a Colt or Bushmaster carbine. I like the RASII rail. I think operation parts still has them and they run about $ 200 I think. You can put it on yourself. Other than that I think your plan to work on iron sights first and to get into Thunder Ranch (though check the waiting list times) is a very good idea. I wish I had done that when I first got into ARs instead of buying piles of ARs, gear etc. One good carbine and then a class is a smart move. edit-whoops or Gunsite, didn't you see you mention them-didn't mean anything by leaving them out. Welcome aboard 
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Ouch!! For the price of that Les Baer I could have almost built two ARs. Go with a Armalite, Bushy, Colt, Rock River, etc. etc. for a complete rifle. Mabey even look into a complete upper and lower from any of the major manufacturers and just pin them together, or if you realy feel up to it build one from quality parts like Colt, CMT, LMT, Bushy, RRA, etc. etc. Either way you'll save some cash to put towards quality USGI mags, ammo, accesories, or a class. Mine for example. OLY stripped forged lower $100 (the only deal i've gotten at a gun show) Mos 16" crome lined 1/7 twist M4 barrel with M4 feed ramps $215 CMT flat top upper with M4 Feed ramps $95 CMT bolt and carrier $120 CMT six position mil. spec colapsable stock with H buffer $90 CMT lower parts kit $65 RRA charging handle with badger Ordinence gen. 2 tac. latch $35 Vortex G6A2 flash suppressor $45 YHM flip up rear site. $80 YHM 2 pc 4 rail hand guards $110 YHM forward vertical grip $50 Bushy delta ring ass. $12 Bushy front sight, detent, and spring $10 Bushy car gas tube and pin $12 4 Magpull XT rail covers $48 Magpull enhanced trigger guard $18 CQD single point sling and end plate mount $70 KNS anti rotation pins $35 2pc action block $35 armorers wrench $30 10 USGI teflon coated mags with green followers $140 1000rds wolf ammo for initial testing (if it eats this it will eat anything) $100 Total $1515 Satisfaction of building it yourself PRICELESS. BTW this is my first and only AR to date. Plans are to add a weapon light and an optic of some sort then I will be starting an A2 style plane jane rifle with the posability of a 7.5" pistol in the future. This hobby is never ending save the cash were you can and spend it were it will add reliability and function. Later, Dave |
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All, Thanks for the information. You no doubt saved me a ton of $$ and maybe my marriage as well. One gun that has caught my attention is the RRA Government Model. While still a large outlay of cash, it does come equipped with what I would have added to any other AR - mainly the EO Tech Site and a SureFire 951. Compared to the Wilson Combat with the same equipment it comes in at roughly $800 dollars less. As was noted in an earlier post - that will buy plenty of spare mags and some ammo to boot. While I still have a lot of research to do before dropping that much money on a weapon, the few reviews I have read about the Government model have all been very positive. Thanks again for the input. |
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All I got to say is....hang out here for a while and just read alot of stuff, this will help you buy what you really want. Try to avoid impulse buying, think it out. If you listen to this advice I dont think you will be disapointed. If you become a paying member you can search the archive, which is every post ever made...I think. That is a great tool. Matt |
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if ithis helps. I just bought a RRA entry tactical with a samson free float quad rail, pri folding front site, arms folding rear site, and a 512 eotech with all the take off goodies and the detachable tac carry handle for 1500 shipped to alaska from mooneys firearms. |
or you are just bragging 
Way to give the guy a warm welcome. Why don't you spend some time around here and learn how we all act, and then come back and start posting.  Matt PS: Dude dont let this guy get to you, every one at one time was in your boat of new learnings. I thought it was a fun time learning all the stuff about the AR for the first time. |
Thanks sahicap. Sounds like you made a great deal on a sweet carbine. Mooneys is right down the road from me so I think I'll get in touch with them. I was looking at the RRA entry tactical, but I think I will look hard at the Gov. model as well. Looks to be similar to the entry, but includes most of the things I would have added anyway. Comes with SureFire M73 quad rail, SureFire 951 weapons light, V-TAC sling, EO-Tech 552 (though the 512 is a better choice for me...I don't need the night vision capability), GG&C FUR sight, case, and cleaning kit. Starting with the Entry Tactical and adding those things comes up to about the same price. I would also prefer a rail system that free floats the barrel, but I don't think the dif. in accuracy between the M73 and a system that free floats will matter considering the intended use of the rifle and my abilities (or lack thereof). LB |
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Be careful on this site, There is a danger lurking just beneath the surface..... It's BLACK RIFLE DISEASE In the beginning you will say: Those guys are crazy, building rifle after rifle, it's way too much money, one will be enough... and then you are infected and there is no cure. If you buy a stock Bushmaster M4A3 for around $900 and add all the goodies that you specifically want you will enjoy the rifle a lot more everytime you show it off at the range P.S. My second Bushmaster is being delivered Thursday, I have BRD really bad right now... |
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Black Rifle Disease 1st: Post-ban Bushy M4-A3 w/ TA-31 $ SF M-900A-BL (now fixed into a no-ban) 2nd: Post-ban Bushy Modular Carbine w/ EoTech 552 (now fixed into a no-ban) 3rd: Post-ban Bushy Patrolman's Carbine M4gery (Govt/Leo Markings) 4th: No-ban Bushy/RRA Frankengun w/ 11.5" barrel & 4.5" FH 5th: No-ban Bushy 20" A4gery w TA-31 6th: No-Ban Bushy SBR 14.5" barrel w A2 FH. 7th: No-ban Bushy/LMT Frankengun SBR 10.5" 8th: No-ban Stripped Bushy lower (waiting for me to make up my mind.) Need more money... |
| That BDR sure sets in fast. I'm just buying my first and already planning what to build for my second. Figured I better get one that's built by someone who knows what they are doing first. I'm afraid my first do-it-yourself project may turn out to be a single shot model. Fire once, take apart, put back together, fire againhinking.gif |
Thanks Stickman. Just checked. The RRA models I'm looking at show to be chrome lined 16" chromemoly barrels from Wilson Combat. I've heard that the chrome lined barrels are easier to maintain, but are there other reasons to consider them? Do they have any effect on accuracy or durability? |
WELCOME! for a first AR i second the idea getting a BUSHMASTER or RRA or any other of the top brands (ABCRDR) and spending the rest of your dollars on USGI mags, qualtiy ammo and/or optics//accesories crhrome-lining resists rusts more, is easier to clean, and has longer bbl life--for an extra $40-$50, i would say that its a good thing to have negatives: it lessens accuracy, but only to an extent that many will not notice it i would get the chrome lining--brand specs:ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=163620 |
Thanks ALPHAGHOST. Great info on the link. |
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I have a DPMS lower (a low quality piece IMO) with a Model 1 Sales EM-4 kit (an option I would not recommend or choose again due too a high %age of negative feed back, and the competitive prices and supperior quality of thier competators Del-Ton and J&T), and I am happier than a pig in shit. Along with a POF P4 tube, an ARMS#40 and a hogue grip It ran aboot $935, and after 2K+ rounds It shoots sub moa groups reliably. Those Les baers look so sweet, and they are probably worth every penny. I wish someone would allow me to fire theirs, because I will never buy one. Visit www.eaglefirearms.net They have the best prices I have seen on RRA and Stag. If you want to build a rifle get a Del-Ton or J&T kit(check the industry forum)with a Lower of your choosing from Eaglefirearms. |
Thanks - great prices at Eaglefirearms.com but a lot of out of stock items. The RRA Government model is listed at about $100 less than I have found anywhere else. Wish they had it in stock. |
All of those good quality named brand parts and you have to add an Oly to the list. 
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Whats wrong with the Oly? It was $65 cheaper than the bushy lowers and the finish looked the same. Everything fits nice and tight, the CMT upper matches the Oly lower and in the past month I have put 2K rounds through it with out one problem. Hell the only real problem I have had was one of my old ass USGI mags feed lips were spread out and causing double feeds, that was easily fixed though. |
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