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Posted: 5/27/2016 9:14:25 PM EDT
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Hello all,
New to ar15.com. I recently build my first AR variant rifle and have since gotten hooked on the platform. Which isn't the greatest for my wallet but what can you do? Anyways, recently I have been mulling over building a pistol for home defense and use for protection in my car. I have done a little research on the topic and have narrowed down some configurations that might be suited for my application. What I am seeking here are further suggestions with regards to barrel length, muzzle device, brace options, etc. I think I either want a 7.5 or 8.5 inch barrel but I'm not sure if there is a practical difference for my intended uses. I do plan on attaching a spikes tactical barking spider 2 or the noveske kx5 to the muzzle. If I go with the 8.5 inch barrel I won't need to buy a handguard to partially shroud the muzzle device. If I go with the 7.5 inch I will need a new handguard to partially shroud the muzzle device. What does everyone think of my two options? I'm not looking to spend a ridiculous amount of money but I feel that the 8.5 barrel option will save me from buying a handguard and I can put that budgeted money into a better optic or trigger. Thanks for the suggestions! Hope to hear some useful feedback. |
Welcome to the obsession.... 
I started with a 7.5" 300blk and then went 8.5" because I found a better quality/more accurate KAK barrel on sale for $100. I liked the 7.5" size and it functioned well, just wasn't accurate with the loads I put through it. Either way... I think it is mostly preference with that small of length difference. Usually harder to find a case for the 8'5", but just found and bought a couple 30" cases at Midway for only $23/ea. Those shrouds will add some length to the firearm. Any shroud will do the job. I wouldn't spend much on a name brand, but that's just me. |
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Well at least for this first build I am going to stick with 5.56. I would like to do a 300 BLK upper eventually so I wouldn't need to do a whole new pistol right away.
I was kinda leaning toward the 8.5 inch barrel to give me a bit better accuracy and still maintain a compact package. My biggest concern with the pistol platform is reliability and cycling issues I've heard about. Which from what I read can be combated with the right buffer weight and a good compensator to increase the back pressure of the gas system. Any suggestions on buffer weight for this type of system? |
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What ammo do you intend to use, and what ranges do you expect to be able to engage @? Do you intend to add a suppressor to it? Well for plinking I usually use 55gr federal brass Defense....something a tad heavier and hollow point, Hornady perhaps. Still thinking that over Realistically with a pistol ar I wouldn't really want to be engaging much beyond 100yds. At this time I do not have plans to add a supressor. That will probably change down the road but I don't really want to dump the money into the NFA world just yet |
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Quoted: Well for plinking I usually use 55gr federal brass
Defense....something a tad heavier and hollow point, Hornady perhaps. Still thinking that over Realistically with a pistol ar I wouldn't really want to be engaging much beyond 100yds. At this time I do not have plans to add a supressor. That will probably change down the road but I don't really want to dump the money into the NFA world just yet Most factory suppressors will not warrant use w/ under a 10.5" 5.56x45mm bbl. Check your expansion velocities carefully out of your 8.5" bbl. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html |
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Most factory suppressors will not warrant use w/ under a 10.5" 5.56x45mm bbl. Check your expansion velocities carefully out of your 8.5" bbl. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html Quoted:
Quoted: Well for plinking I usually use 55gr federal brass
Defense....something a tad heavier and hollow point, Hornady perhaps. Still thinking that over Realistically with a pistol ar I wouldn't really want to be engaging much beyond 100yds. At this time I do not have plans to add a supressor. That will probably change down the road but I don't really want to dump the money into the NFA world just yet Most factory suppressors will not warrant use w/ under a 10.5" 5.56x45mm bbl. Check your expansion velocities carefully out of your 8.5" bbl. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html Well I do not plan on running a supressor. And to be honest a 10 inch barrel putting out 2600 fps vs and 8 inch putting out 2300 fps is pretty negligible and from the looks of that graph it appears that it is a relatively consistent slope of barrel length vs muzzle energy at any barrel length. Now if it were an exponential decay in muzzle energy then I wouldn't consider a shorter than 10 inch barrel. You also have to keep in mind that ar pistols aren't meant for sniper level accuracy and precision. They are intended as any short barrel system is....as "cqb" or "pdw" application. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of an ar pistol is to have a happy medium between the power of an ar15 rifle and the compact portability of a sidearm. From what I can gather 7.5" is out and between 8.5" and 10.5" would be the way to go for a system that meets both criteria of an ar pistol intended for personal protection |
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Well if you are talking 5.56mm IMO the minimum effective length is 10.3", anything shorter should really be classified a range toy, and not something you would use to for self defense or hunting. If you go 300blk anywhere from 7.5-9" is completely acceptable.
Muzzle devices I would seriously look at a Troy Claymore, Kaw Valley Linear Comp or Levang Linear Comp. I had a KX5 and I was not a fan, it's heavy, creates a huge fireball, doesn't really direct the noise as well as a linear comp will. They are also large even the KX5 and I didn't really like the look, the linear Comps are only slightly larger in diameter than an A2 so they don't look like tin can hanging of the end of your barrel. The linear comps are also much better on the pocket book, at under $60 most places. For an arm brace IMO there are only two ways to go the Thordson brace, or the Shockwave brace. I bought a sig brace when they first appeared and while they were a great concept, they are heavy, awkward and hard to cheek weld. They work work great if you plan to strap it to your arm. 
If you are looking for a trigger Primary Arms has Giessele Automatics triggers on sale right now for 25% off. |
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Well I do not plan on running a supressor. And to be honest a 10 inch barrel putting out 2600 fps vs and 8 inch putting out 2300 fps is pretty negligible and from the looks of that graph it appears that it is a relatively consistent slope of barrel length vs muzzle energy at any barrel length. Now if it were an exponential decay in muzzle energy then I wouldn't consider a shorter than 10 inch barrel. You also have to keep in mind that ar pistols aren't meant for sniper level accuracy and precision. They are intended as any short barrel system is....as "cqb" or "pdw" application. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of an ar pistol is to have a happy medium between the power of an ar15 rifle and the compact portability of a sidearm. From what I can gather 7.5" is out and between 8.5" and 10.5" would be the way to go for a system that meets both criteria of an ar pistol intended for personal protection Quoted:
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Quoted: Well for plinking I usually use 55gr federal brass
Defense....something a tad heavier and hollow point, Hornady perhaps. Still thinking that over Realistically with a pistol ar I wouldn't really want to be engaging much beyond 100yds. At this time I do not have plans to add a supressor. That will probably change down the road but I don't really want to dump the money into the NFA world just yet Most factory suppressors will not warrant use w/ under a 10.5" 5.56x45mm bbl. Check your expansion velocities carefully out of your 8.5" bbl. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html Well I do not plan on running a supressor. And to be honest a 10 inch barrel putting out 2600 fps vs and 8 inch putting out 2300 fps is pretty negligible and from the looks of that graph it appears that it is a relatively consistent slope of barrel length vs muzzle energy at any barrel length. Now if it were an exponential decay in muzzle energy then I wouldn't consider a shorter than 10 inch barrel. You also have to keep in mind that ar pistols aren't meant for sniper level accuracy and precision. They are intended as any short barrel system is....as "cqb" or "pdw" application. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of an ar pistol is to have a happy medium between the power of an ar15 rifle and the compact portability of a sidearm. From what I can gather 7.5" is out and between 8.5" and 10.5" would be the way to go for a system that meets both criteria of an ar pistol intended for personal protection I will correct you, in this case you need to look at what bullets you plan on shooting, most bullet manufactures will have a minimum speed to expand, in the case of 5.56mm/.223rem these velocities are typically fairly high. Because 5.56mm gets it's effectiveness from speed. If you are shooting a very short barrel 7.5" or 8.5" even at the muzzle some bullets may not expand, so at 100yds or even across your house they may more perform just like a FMJ. So if you plan to ignore our advice and build a range toy with a short barrel then that is up to you, but IMO your caliber selection in short barrel is not recommended in most cases for anything but a range toy. While you feel there is not much difference between 2600fps and 2300fps that 300fps may make all the difference on whether the bullet expands or if goes straight through leaving nothing but .224 diameter hole in its wake. IMHO if you are seriously considering 7.5 or 8.5" you need to look at another caliber like 300blk or others. You also need to look at what they bullet velocity will be at the distances you plan to be defending yourself at, so at 10yds, 25yds, 50yds 100yds etc. Another thing that needs to be mentioned is many 5.56mm 7.5" and 8.5" ARs can be very finicky when it comes to ammo, again not something I want to worry about when things go bump in the night, 10.3" longer seem to have far fewer issues with ammo, than the short barrels do. With 300blk it was designed for a short barrel so all those issues with ammo are typically not a problem. I am only using 300blk as an example, if you go look around there are hundreds of variants that will fit the AR15 platform, that will be far better out of short barrel, but again you will need to do your research on expected velocities for a barrel length you desire and minimum expansion velocity for the bullet you plan to shoot. |
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Quoted: Well I do not plan on running a supressor. And to be honest a 10 inch barrel putting out 2600 fps vs and 8 inch putting out 2300 fps is pretty negligible and from the looks of that graph it appears that it is a relatively consistent slope of barrel length vs muzzle energy at any barrel length. Now if it were an exponential decay in muzzle energy then I wouldn't consider a shorter than 10 inch barrel.
You also have to keep in mind that ar pistols aren't meant for sniper level accuracy and precision. They are intended as any short barrel system is....as "cqb" or "pdw" application. Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of an ar pistol is to have a happy medium between the power of an ar15 rifle and the compact portability of a sidearm. From what I can gather 7.5" is out and between 8.5" and 10.5" would be the way to go for a system that meets both criteria of an ar pistol intended for personal protection The importance is not the muzzle velocity - it's the bullet velocity @ 100 yds, and how it performs @ 100 yds, & @ 50. If you just want to drill small holes@ 100 yds, then you can run a 2" bbl AR in .22" LR. If you want the permanent cavity of a rifle round, then the bullet needs to be above 2100 fps @ impact - and if you're running soft points or hollow points, you need to know the minimum velocity for expansion of that round. YMMV, but for your chosen caliber, look @ what the folks in this thread are telling you. You've yet to post up exactly what load you plan to use, and how well it will work @ your maximum intended range given the velocity loss you're taking out of an 8" bbl. |
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OK thank you for the information. Much appreciated before I made an expensive mistake haha. I had been considering 300 blk but my issue is availability of this caliber. So basically my practical options are: 300blk in a 7-8inch barrel our 556 in nothing shorter than 10inch With a 10 inch barrel how does it compare in performance from a self defense stand point to the 556/223? Also I was already pretty much sold on the Shockwave from the research I've done. As far as the muzzle device goes I will check out your suggestions |
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I guess I hold some misconceptions about the ar pistol platform. Thank you for the input I wasn't thinking about velocity needed for expansion. Thank you for mentioning that. I am certainly going to take all of this into consideration. As far as the load I want to run....I'm not sure, I've heard decent things about the hornady defense ammo and the nosler. I don't really know what do do with that....any suggestions? |
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Availability of 300blk can be a problem but I have found most dealers carry a few varieties. Otherwise if you want some specific you can buy from many places on the web. Or start reloading its fairly easy to reload. If your thinking SHTF the chances of finding or needing large quantities of ammo is a apocalyptic wet dream.
A 10.3" 5.56mm is fine as long as you keep the shots under 200m. Another option if you want a super short pistol with ammo availability. Is to build a 9mm AR pistol. Several manufacturers make magazine specific lowers, say you want one that takes Glock mags etc.... A 9mm AR pistol would probably give you everything you are looking for. |
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Availability of 300blk can be a problem but I have found most dealers carry a few varieties. Otherwise if you want some specific you can buy from many places on the web. Or start reloading its fairly easy to reload. If your thinking SHTF the chances of finding or needing large quantities of ammo is a apocalyptic wet dream. A 10.3" 5.56mm is fine as long as you keep the shots under 200m. Another option if you want a super short pistol with ammo availability. Is to build a 9mm AR pistol. Several manufacturers make magazine specific lowers, say you want one that takes Glock mags etc.... A 9mm AR pistol would probably give you everything you are looking for. Well from what I can gather from all of the input, a 10.5" bbl in 556 would be best suited for self defense with a Shockwave brace. And as far as muzzle device, what is the best option to minimize flash? And what specific load would be best suited for defense? |
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To minimize flash the standard A2 does a pretty good job, but it's going to be loud as hell on 10.5" barrel, linear comps direct the sound away from you but they create more flash. Flash cans direct the sound away from you the but the main point of the design is to create a huge fireball. So IMO I would go with one of the linear comps I mentioned, the flash will be bigger than an A2 but it will direct the sound away from you, unless of course you are inside then no matter what you shoot it's going to be loud without a suppressor.
For loadings there are several factory loading that will work anything that is JSP, or HP, should be acceptable, I would probably look at something in the 64+ gr size. I personally use 62gr Fusion just because I have seen what they can do to a deer, and feel humans are fairly similar in make up. There ar many LE rounds in the 64gr+ category that will work, you want to look for something that is low flash, which most the high end SD designed loading are. This is a good source when trying to decide an the ammunition for you. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId803443 |
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Quoted: Well from what I can gather from all of the input, a 10.5" bbl in 556 would be best suited for self defense with a Shockwave brace. And as far as muzzle device, what is the best option to minimize flash? And what specific load would be best suited for defense? The Ammo Oracle The best is a suppressor, which you can build for under $100 + tax stamp. After that? I'm fond of linear suppressors, like the LeVang comp, or flash cans, like the KAK or the Noveske Pig. Flash cans don't necessarily reduce flash, however. |
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The Ammo Oracle The best is a suppressor, which you can build for under $100 + tax stamp. After that? I'm fond of linear suppressors, like the LeVang comp, or flash cans, like the KAK or the Noveske Pig. Flash cans don't necessarily reduce flash, however. Quoted:
Quoted: Well from what I can gather from all of the input, a 10.5" bbl in 556 would be best suited for self defense with a Shockwave brace. And as far as muzzle device, what is the best option to minimize flash? And what specific load would be best suited for defense? The Ammo Oracle The best is a suppressor, which you can build for under $100 + tax stamp. After that? I'm fond of linear suppressors, like the LeVang comp, or flash cans, like the KAK or the Noveske Pig. Flash cans don't necessarily reduce flash, however. How on earth can you build one that cheap? And is it more complicated paperwork-wise to mfg your own? |
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How on earth can you build one that cheap? And is it more complicated paperwork-wise to mfg your own? http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=55&t=434329 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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How on earth can you build one that cheap? And is it more complicated paperwork-wise to mfg your own? http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=55&t=434329 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Awesome resource, thank you. I might consider this option eventually. It would be interesting to build your own. |
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