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Posted: 10/28/2010 10:14:08 PM EDT
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I'm just checking up to see what pitfalls I'm missing here' I'm getting ready to build my first retro Ar15 (a colt 604 clone), and I'd like to see if anyone has any advise for me, or issues with what I'm using to build it. I'll be using the following:
Colt upper - slicksided, birdcage, no forward assist, raised rear sight markings, flat slip ring, triangular handguards, barrel is C MP C marked. (Was this a 604? Or an SP1? Or do I need to provide more information) Young Manufacturing SP1 Chromed BCG Nodak Partial Fence lower Type D Stock and pistol grip Standard Buffer CMMG lower parts set (Likely to be the least correct, but as a function of state law, I CAN'T use certain original or A1 parts. Feedback? Criticisms? Get this off of the forum? |
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Quoted: I'm just checking up to see what pitfalls I'm missing here' I'm getting ready to build my first retro Ar15 (a colt 604 clone), and I'd like to see if anyone has any advise for me, or issues with what I'm using to build it. I'll be using the following: Colt upper - slicksided, birdcage, no forward assist, raised rear sight markings, flat slip ring, triangular handguards, barrel is C MP C marked. (Was this a 604? Or an SP1? Or do I need to provide more information) Young Manufacturing SP1 Chromed BCG Nodak Partial Fence lower Type D Stock and pistol grip Standard Buffer CMMG lower parts set (Likely to be the least correct, but as a function of state law, I CAN'T use certain original or A1 parts. Feedback? Criticisms? Get this off of the forum? Sounds like a 604 upper, if the hole in the front hinge that connects to the lower is small. SP1s had "large holes." Also, assuming it is a 604 upper, based on your description, it's probably a "later" production model (circa 1967-70), which means a full-fence lower and parkerized BCG with foward assist notches are more correct. But, I had an upper much like yours, and I really wanted the "early" 604 look, so I replaced the birdcage flash hider with a 3-prong, used a Young's chrome slickside BCG, and mated it with a partial-fence lower. So I'd say you're on the right track! Be sure to check out this site if you haven't already: http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/RflGde/604.html Note the differences between "early" and "late" model 604s. |
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Like GI-45 indicates, you'll need to check the front hole diameter to determine if it's an AP1 upper. If so, you can use an adapter to mate her with the NDS lower, but regardless, it sounds like you have a nice rifle started!
Also like he indicates, since you're doing the chrome BCG and partial fence lower, I'd definitely swap that birdcage for a 3-prong. When it's finished, it will be just "unusual" enough to stand out a bit among other ARs. Enjoy––and post pics! Oh––and welcome to the forum! |
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Thanks for all the input!
I had thought about doing the 3 prong, because I would like an earlier build, and as it happens, I jabber one kicking around. I may try to get the birdcage off, who was it that makes that tool I saw posted here a while ago? Also, as to the selector, does any one know who makes a good repro? And a repro horizontally striped magazine realease? That would be cotryfor an early 604, wouldn't it? |
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Hasso,
You can get the flashhider tool from Pat Meddars ([email protected]) and the "no tick" selectors from Jarrell Sharp (Heatnbeat). Hal |
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Quoted: Hasso, You can get the flashhider tool from Pat Meddars ([email protected]) and the "no tick" selectors from Jarrell Sharp (Heatnbeat). Hal Hasso, You can see pictures of these items here (scroll down towards the bottom of the page): http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm I have several of Hetnbeat's parts on my 604; highly recommended. |
It means that the selector does not have the little directional notch on the right side of the receiver.
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the input! I had thought about doing the 3 prong, because I would like an earlier build, and as it happens, I jabber one kicking around. I may try to get the birdcage off, who was it that makes that tool I saw posted here a while ago? Also, as to the selector, does any one know who makes a good repro? And a repro horizontally striped magazine realease? That would be cotryfor an early 604, wouldn't it? You don't need a special wrench for the birdcage, it has wrench flats. Just put some electrical tape on the jaws of an adjustable or the appropriate sized open end wrench and clamp that upper between your knees and give it a turn, it should come off. You can use a strap wrench to install the three prong hider it has no flats. Member 45Bravo makes a wrench specifically for the three prong, or you can look on gunbroker or gunshows for an original GI wrench. |
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Quoted:
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Be sure & get a "No Tic" selector What does that mean? How do I make my selector stop ticking? Excellent response! Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for all the input! I had thought about doing the 3 prong, because I would like an earlier build, and as it happens, I jabber one kicking around. I may try to get the birdcage off, who was it that makes that tool I saw posted here a while ago? Also, as to the selector, does any one know who makes a good repro? And a repro horizontally striped magazine realease? That would be cotryfor an early 604, wouldn't it? You don't need a special wrench for the birdcage, it has wrench flats. Just put some electrical tape on the jaws of an adjustable or the appropriate sized open end wrench and clamp that upper between your knees and give it a turn, it should come off. You can use a strap wrench to install the three prong hider it has no flats. Member 45Bravo makes a wrench specifically for the three prong, or you can look on gunbroker or gunshows for an original GI wrench. You shouldn't need a special wrench to get the three prong Flash Hider on. As tight as you can by hand usually works fine. The only time I use a wrench is to get the FH off when some Go-rilla has torqued it on too tight. |
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Quoted:
Sounds like a 604 upper, if the hole in the front hinge that connects to the lower is small. SP1s had "large holes." Well, a quick trip through it with a set of brass punches show the front hole to be approx 7/32, and the rear hole to be ~1/4. The pins in the CMMG lower set fit snugly, but do seem to travel, so I think I'm okay. Also, I noticed on nodak's page, that it states that the rear roll pin hole is 3/32 - is this another custom part I'll need, or?? |
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Quoted:
Well, a quick trip through it with a set of brass punches show the front hole to be approx 7/32, and the rear hole to be ~1/4. The pins in the CMMG lower set fit snugly, but do seem to travel, so I think I'm okay. Also, I noticed on nodak's page, that it states that the rear roll pin hole is 3/32 - is this another custom part I'll need, or?? 
Wait did I read that right? 7/32 = 0.21875, which is smaller than the rear hole? SP1s have a .315" diameter pivot pin, while all military and other ARs should have .250" diameter pins. Sounds like you have a 604 upper and your front hole is just a little on the tight side. The roll pin referred to on the NDS page was originally to intersect the threads of the receiver extension, and is a different thing from the takedown pins. It was eliminated on later models. On the NDS reproduction, it is included for cosmetic reasons. If I recall correctly, they provide a roll pin with each receiver, though it needs to be cut to length. |
| Since this seems to call for a little more detail, I grabbed my calipers and brass punches. Confirmed that 1/4 will not enter the front hole, but will enter the rear hole. I have no /64 sized punch, so it's onto the calipers. The front hole reads .236 on the calipers, the rear hole reads .256. Does this sound like its going to be an issue? |
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Young Manufacturing SP1 Chromed BCG CMMG lower parts set (Likely to be the least correct, but as a function of state law, I CAN'T use certain original or A1 parts. OK, first, the gas key on the Young Manuf. bolt group will not be staked, and they will consider your warranty voided if you stake it yourself. They use locktite and claim it's OK, but the general consensus was to stake the keys. I've never started from scratch, only added some whack to ones that were already staked. They do make a tool for this. Second, the only issue you'll have with the CMMG lower parts, and this may have already been addressed, is that they'll be a different color from your lower unless you've got a dark upper and went with a black NDS lower to match. If they aren't a good match, send them (And any other parts) off to Victor at US Anodizing for refinishing in a matching color, and they'll match nicely. You don't need to worry about the hammer or disconnecter since they've not visible from the outside. ETA: Theres also the "naval jelly trick" but I forget the details, I'm sure somebody else will bring that up. It only works on steel parts though. Quoted:
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Does this sound like its going to be an issue? If the pivot pin fits, that's all that matters. You said your CMMG pin fit snugly? Snug is okay. Agreed, I had one that was really tight, but it's loosened up to "nice and snug" over time. |
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ETA: Theres also the "naval jelly trick" but I forget the details, I'm sure somebody else will bring that up. It only works on steel parts though. Okay, I'll bring it up. Regarding the color matching of black LPKs to gray lowers... most modern LPKs actually have a layer of parkerizing first, then some form of black, paint-like finish applied over it. Naval Jelly is a commonly available (try any hardware store) rust remover that has proven effective at removing the black outer finish, exposing the layer of parkerizing beneath, and thus changing black parts into gray. The technique is simple. Apply Naval Jelly to a part, leave it sit for 30 seconds to a couple minutes, and then remove the jelly. I use a paper towel or rag to rub the part and make sure all the black comes off with the jelly. As Der_Hans said, this only works on parkerized steel parts; it will have no effect on anodized aluminum. That leaves you needing a gray magazine release button and trigger guard. Possibly a charging handle and receiver extension as well, depending on what parts you are starting from. Also, not every manufacturer of LPKs has them parkerized. I'm not sure about CMMG, but they make a lot of their other stuff to mil-specs so I expect their LPKs would be parkerized and could be Naval Jellied just fine. |
| My 2 pennies on tight pins.I have had several items anodized by Victor (he does ALL of NDSs work),and on several occasions I've had to "chase" holes and threads with the proper size drill bit or tap to get things right.If your front pivot pin is too tight,it's most likely a build-up of anodizing.Take a 1/4 drill bit by hand and just gently twist it in the "ears" of the lower,then a drop of oil and push the pin in and work it in/out a few times..Has worked for me EVERY time. |
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Okay, so everything is here - EXCEPT - the lower and the small parts enroute from heatnbeat; I've been tinkering with the naval jelly trick, and I'm getting inconsistant results. I'm going to need to look at them in the broad daylight. THat said, I am going to need a properly colored triggerguard, does anyone have a source?
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Quoted:
Okay, so everything is here - EXCEPT - the lower and the small parts enroute from heatnbeat; I've been tinkering with the naval jelly trick, and I'm getting inconsistant results. I'm going to need to look at them in the broad daylight. THat said, I am going to need a properly colored triggerguard, does anyone have a source? You can get one right here (that's where I got one of mine, I am very pleased with it.) Mike B |
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Well, I'm still waiting on a handful of small parts to do this build, but I've got another issue; after running the naval jelly through its paces, it would seem that not all of the parts had an undercoat as described above. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to fix this, other than by shipping the mess of to US anodizing? Duracoat? And is their wait time really 4-6 weeks?
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Quoted:
The roll pin referred to on the NDS page was originally to intersect the threads of the receiver extension, and is a different thing from the takedown pins. It was eliminated on later models. On the NDS reproduction, it is included for cosmetic reasons. If I recall correctly, they provide a roll pin with each receiver, though it needs to be cut to length. No, it doesn't need to be cut, it is the correct length. 
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