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Posted: 4/10/2013 6:31:05 AM EDT
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How big a deal is it that the S&W M&P Sport does not have a forward bolt assist?
I'm looking at either a Sport or a M&P 15 TS. Except for all the rails on the TS I don't see much functional difference. Am I missing something? |
| opinions vary on this - I like it as if I want to quietly chamber a round I use the FA to make sure the weapon goes into battery. You will have a legion of people who claim you don't need it, the original design didn't hav ie, etc. search archives for more than you care to know on this. |
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How big a deal is it that the S&W M&P Sport does not have a forward bolt assist? I'm looking at either a Sport or a M&P 15 TS. Except for all the rails on the TS I don't see much functional difference. Am I missing something? I had a DMPS Sportical without forward assist. Never was an issue. Now I have a Palmetto State Armory upper WITH forward assist. Never once have I used it. |
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The Army screwed the pooch on the FA. I've never seen anyone I've been shooting with need the FA to close the bolt. I have seen lots of guys having to pogo the bolt open.
What the Army should have done was point the FA the other direction so you could force the bolt open. H |
| This issue is ENTIRELY your opinion. There isn't much technical data to prove one way absolute over the other. Personally, I like the idea of having a forward assist and the looks of it on there. I've had to use one on issued rifles, but never my own. Some people disagree, they aren't wrong and neither am I. If it's in your budget and its available at this time, don't let that one thing sway your decision. |
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I've used FA twice...
BOTH time I wound up with a FTF. A light strike on the primer. Let the bolt fly, and those rounds also shot fine. If just needed to cause bolt to lock up, go gently. Only reason I have seen on ARFcom that makes sense is for hunters trying to be quite. But it still makes a click. |
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 I would never pay for an AR style rifle without one. However, if given one would gladly receive it.
I routinely use it to chamber quietly when hunting. Visual inspect of chamber by pulling charging handle back, then FA. I guess I just love pushing buttons. Again how quietly???? |
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I have used the FA literally hundreds of times and never had a FTF.
When something goes bump in the night making a lot of noise is not necessarily a smart move. I ride the charging handle at the range a lot also as charging a weapon at night trying to be quiet is not something a person wants to fumble finger. |
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The TS has a 1/7 CMV chrome lined barrel with a pinned on vortex flash hider.
Waaaaaaay better barrel then the sport. The TS flash hider is the best out there. The S&W website incorrectly labels the barrel as 4140 when its actually CMV. The upper alone on the website correctly states CMV barrel steel. My TS upper is CMV. |
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How big a deal is it that the S&W M&P Sport does not have a forward bolt assist? I'm looking at either a Sport or a M&P 15 TS. Except for all the rails on the TS I don't see much functional difference. Am I missing something? As others have said, it's not 100% necessary. It really depends on what YOU are planning on doing with your rifle. Is it going to be strictly a range rifle? If so, you probably won't ever miss the FA or port door. Your rifle will be lighter and easier to maneuver around. Do you want to get into super tactical movement, prone shooting, moving around on the ground? If so, then you might want the port door and FA just to keep dust and debris out of the upper. Your planned use of the rifle will dictate what parts you need for it. |
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I have used the FA literally hundreds of times and never had a FTF. When something goes bump in the night making a lot of noise is not necessarily a smart move. I ride the charging handle at the range a lot also as charging a weapon at night trying to be quiet is not something a person wants to fumble finger. Riding the charging handle is stupid. And if you keep your gun loaded, you don't need to charge it quietly. |
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It just depends. You really have to understand why it was not there at first and then put there though (stories may differ, but this is just what I've collected over time, granted I'm not an expert on Vietnam era AR's nor am I one on modern AR's).
Originally Stoner's design did not have one in the upper receiver. It did have one though, which is still there today. The cut out in the BCG that flips out the cover down, severs dual purpose. Now for hunting where the bolt isn't hot, this works fine (unless you're one of the guys who runs your bolt extremely wet/covered in grease). This was never an issue in testing, but when the rifle actually went into production, some budget cuts were made (I believe Stoner's original test platforms had chrome lined chambers but please correct me if I'm wrong) and the stick powder the ammunition used was moved over to ball powder. In the field, it was discovered that the ball powder fouled more, the rifles which had a reputation of not needing to be cleaned…needed to be cleaned (who got that idea in the first place needs a here's your sign award) and when the rifles jammed the bcg's were hot so pushing the carrier into battery with the cut-out was out of the question. AR's have fairly tight clearances so unless your operating in sandy/muddy environments…the dust cover probably isn't a huge issue. I think it comes down a lot to personal preference. |
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I would never pay for an AR style rifle without one. However, if given one would gladly receive it.
I routinely use it to chamber quietly when hunting. Visual inspect of chamber by pulling charging handle back, then FA. I guess I just love pushing buttons. Again how quietly???? I can make it pretty darn quiet if I also pull back a little on the charging handle at the same time. |
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It just depends. You really have to understand why it was not there at first and then put there though (stories may differ, but this is just what I've collected over time, granted I'm not an expert on Vietnam era AR's nor am I one on modern AR's). Originally Stoner's design did not have one in the upper receiver. It did have one though, which is still there today. The cut out in the BCG that flips out the cover down, severs dual purpose. Now for hunting where the bolt isn't hot, this works fine (unless you're one of the guys who runs your bolt extremely wet/covered in grease). This was never an issue in testing, but when the rifle actually went into production, some budget cuts were made (I believe Stoner's original test platforms had chrome lined chambers but please correct me if I'm wrong) and the stick powder the ammunition used was moved over to ball powder. In the field, it was discovered that the ball powder fouled more, the rifles which had a reputation of not needing to be cleaned…needed to be cleaned (who got that idea in the first place needs a here's your sign award) and when the rifles jammed the bcg's were hot so pushing the carrier into battery with the cut-out was out of the question. AR's have fairly tight clearances so unless your operating in sandy/muddy environments…the dust cover probably isn't a huge issue. I think it comes down a lot to personal preference. The XM16E1, the first model with the forward assist was introduced to service before the change in propellants occurred. The manual bolt closure device existed in large part because the Army's last rifle (and all of them before that) had had a manual bolt closure device, and they'd be goddamned if their next one wouldn't, too. Several variants were tested, and the current version was eventually adopted. The Air Force said "hell, we're only sixteen years old anyways, what fucks do we give?" and went with the M16, without the bolt closure device. The lack of chrome, propellant issues, and poor maintenance practices all contributed to problems that would later arise with the XM16E1/M16A1 that had always had a bolt closure device. Possibly the forward assist when combined with a pitted and rusty chamber and sticky innards did cause some stuck cases that would have otherwise remained unstuck had the manual bolt closure not been used. In general, I'm largely indifferent to its presence or absence. I use mine frequently out of habit, but it's hard to say if I ever "needed" it. Suppressed guns can get pretty "sticky," though, particularly if loading from bolt lock using the release instead of the charging handle. Aesthetically, unless it's an SMG variant or a retro variant with a fixed carry handle and field sights, ARs without them look weird to me. Practically, I may be indifferent about the forward assist, but I'm pretty insistent on the ejection port cover. The current choices of flattops without forward assists are either a) more expensive than standard uppers, or b) lack ejection port covers as well. It's simply not a big enough deal to worry about it. The way I see it, there's about an equally small chance of it causing a malfunction that can not be quickly recovered from as there is a chance of it being critical for my survival, making it a wash. ~Augee |
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I have used the FA literally hundreds of times and never had a FTF. When something goes bump in the night making a lot of noise is not necessarily a smart move. I ride the charging handle at the range a lot also as charging a weapon at night trying to be quiet is not something a person wants to fumble finger. Riding the charging handle is stupid. And if you keep your gun loaded, you don't need to charge it quietly. A person should know his limitations for sure. Some of us don’t want to keep rounds chambered unless the circumstances are exceptional. |
| If you are left handed like me I would say no, its not needed. Having the rifle slung, the Forward Assist and the brass deflector dig into my back. For hunters trying to be quiet, I would say chamber the round and put it on safe, switching the selector to fire sounds a lot quieter than using the forward assist. I'm not a hunter but I don't understand why you would wait to chamber a round when you are ready to shoot. You spend all day stalking that you shoud be ready to shoot. I was in the Army too and only recall using the FA when practicing SPORTS. When rifle malfunctioned at the range I didn't use the FA at all. I was practicing SPORS. |
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forward assist: not needed
if you want to chamber it quietly...well, just keep it loaded dust cover: needed AR already has enough problems shitting where it eats...no sense making it worse by having a lubed bolt attracting more shit only so much shit will fit in the hole til it becomes a problem |
| Also, if people are worried about their weapon going into battery properly, then you should look into another weapon platform. Nothing wrong with the AR-15 system. Hearing people riding the bolt slowly make me think that they do the same thing with the slides on their semi-auto pistols. |
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If it bothers you, then buy something else. I have slickside uppers, and I have those with the F/A. I've never had call to use one. I guess I can understand the argument in favor by those who say it helps to quietly chamber a round when hunting.
I've fired thousands upon thousands of rounds through my full-auto SP1, and never had an occasion where I wished I had a forward assist. |
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The Army screwed the pooch on the FA. I've never seen anyone I've been shooting with need the FA to close the bolt. I have seen lots of guys having to pogo the bolt open. What the Army should have done was point the FA the other direction so you could force the bolt open. Nope, that would be backward, and we all know that the US Government never does anything back...war..........(never-mind)........ 
But as to the forward assist and dust cover, personally I wouldn't consider a rifle without them. Are they necessary..... 
But personal preference dictates to me that they have them. I see lots of pictures posted here with a lot of "accessories" that I consider unnecessary, and some even down right silly, and then folks are critical of items that have been standard from the very beginning. See?....it's all up to you. Personal preference. 
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I've had to use the FA a few times while in the Army. One doesn't always get a chance to properly clean their weapon. The few times I have had to use it was under adverse conditions with high rounds counts. I have yet to use the FA on my personal AR but still like having it. |
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I'm not a hunter but I don't understand why you would wait to chamber a round when you are ready to shoot. You spend all day stalking that you shoud be ready to shoot. . As someone who does hunt...I know exactly what you mean (don't stalk though). As soon as I'm in the blind I load the rifle. Always loaded when I'm walking around. Driving around...loaded. If I'm hunting...I'm loaded. That's just me though. |
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I'm not a hunter but I don't understand why you would wait to chamber a round when you are ready to shoot. You spend all day stalking that you shoud be ready to shoot. . As someone who does hunt...I know exactly what you mean (don't stalk though). As soon as I'm in the blind I load the rifle. Always loaded when I'm walking around. Driving around...loaded. If I'm hunting...I'm loaded. That's just me though. I most states it's against the law to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle. Every year someone always get shot as they pull a loaded rifle or shotgun from a vehicle. Worse yet, you end up shooting someone you really love like one of your kids or your brother. Is a deer or a few birds really worth having a loaded weapon in a vehicle? If you talk to predator callers, just about every one of the that shoots an AR use the forward assist. We drive from stand to stand calling. When we are done calling we walk back to the vehicle, unload the weapon, and drive to the next stand. When you arrive at the next stand, if you're a good hunter, you will not slam the doors, and you will put a coat over your rifle to muffle the noise when your chambering a round. |
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The Army screwed the pooch on the FA. I've never seen anyone I've been shooting with need the FA to close the bolt. I have seen lots of guys having to pogo the bolt open. What the Army should have done was point the FA the other direction so you could force the bolt open. H This. not once have I needed a the forward assist. |
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I'm not a hunter but I don't understand why you would wait to chamber a round when you are ready to shoot. You spend all day stalking that you shoud be ready to shoot. . As someone who does hunt...I know exactly what you mean (don't stalk though). As soon as I'm in the blind I load the rifle. Always loaded when I'm walking around. Driving around...loaded. If I'm hunting...I'm loaded. That's just me though. I most states it's against the law to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle. Every year someone always get shot as they pull a loaded rifle or shotgun from a vehicle. Worse yet, you end up shooting someone you really love like one of your kids or your brother. Is a deer or a few birds really worth having a loaded weapon in a vehicle? If you talk to predator callers, just about every one of the that shoots an AR use the forward assist. We drive from stand to stand calling. When we are done calling we walk back to the vehicle, unload the weapon, and drive to the next stand. When you arrive at the next stand, if you're a good hunter, you will not slam the doors, and you will put a coat over your rifle to muffle the noise when your chambering a round. Most states do, however doesn't apply to private roads or private property. Now, not everyone hunts the same. The only time I ever uses a blind, is when deer hunting. Otherwise, I'm always moving around. Most of the time I'm actually firing out of the truck (muzzle awareness, transmissions are more replaceable than people and if your paying attention, you can get a rifle out the window without ever sweeping anyone or your feet). Really just depends on how your hunting as to the tactics (and safety) that needs to be implemented. |
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I'm not a hunter but I don't understand why you would wait to chamber a round when you are ready to shoot. You spend all day stalking that you shoud be ready to shoot. . As someone who does hunt...I know exactly what you mean (don't stalk though). As soon as I'm in the blind I load the rifle. Always loaded when I'm walking around. Driving around...loaded. If I'm hunting...I'm loaded. That's just me though. I most states it's against the law to have a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle. Every year someone always get shot as they pull a loaded rifle or shotgun from a vehicle. Worse yet, you end up shooting someone you really love like one of your kids or your brother. Is a deer or a few birds really worth having a loaded weapon in a vehicle? If you talk to predator callers, just about every one of the that shoots an AR use the forward assist. We drive from stand to stand calling. When we are done calling we walk back to the vehicle, unload the weapon, and drive to the next stand. When you arrive at the next stand, if you're a good hunter, you will not slam the doors, and you will put a coat over your rifle to muffle the noise when your chambering a round. Where allowed I typically have a loaded rifle in the front seat with me on a drive of any distance or anywhere remote. |
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