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Posted: 11/22/2004 7:05:52 PM EDT
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A couple weekends ago I took the Front Sight 4-Day Practical Rifle course. I know this course has been discussed here before, so rather than a detailed account, I've listed below some of my observations (and a few questions). Many of these points deal with using an AR15 in the class (content!), so hopefully someone on this forum can consider them if they're planning on taking this class in the future. First off, the class was everything I expected it to be. All instructors were knowledgeable, I learned a lot and had a great time. I've taken other rifle classes (Gunsite instructors at my local community college) and I have to say the setup at FS is second to none. My 17-year old son accompanied me (his first ever firearm class) and it was obvious that his gun handling and knowledge of the AR15 weapon system increased dramatically by the end of the 4 days. He used an SP1 carbine. Observations: We started with 41 students. There was 1 M1 carbine, 1 M1A, 1 AK, and I think 1 AR10. AR15's were used by the rest. Some of the students (about 10) were there for only 2 days. Just my humble opinion, but I think the 2-day class is a gyp. We fired less than 100 rounds the 1st day, and about 40 rounds the 2nd day. Most of the shooting is on days 3 & 4 -- my son and I went through about 1000 rounds by the end. If you're going to Front Sight, take the 4-day course and forget the 2-day. Optics - It seemed the optic of choice was the Trijicon ACOG. I saw many variants - TA01, TA01NSN, TA31. Everyone must be reading and taking to heart the "Best all-purpose optic" thread. Didn't see any compact ACOGs nor the TA11. Not too many red dots. I used an Aimpoint Comp M, one guy had a Comp M2, there were 1 or 2 EOTechs, another guy had a Trijicon Reflex. A fair amount of low magnification scopes were used. One point that I found interesting had to do with the way my Aimpoint was mounted. I have an A3 flattop and use a GG&G cantilever mount which positions the AP over the front handguard. On day 1 as the instructors checked how we shouldered our weapons, one instructor commented on how my optic shouldn't be mounted so far forward. He said I would get a better sight picture with it further back, closer to my eye. I've never heard of this before, the advice I've always heard on this board was to get the AP out over the handguards, far away from the eye. I've used the AP this way for a long time with no problems, but this instructor thought differently. He finally told me to do whatever I wanted, so I kept the AP mounted as is. Use of magnification - On the final day, we did a few rounds from 400 yards, but for the most part, all shooting is done from 200 yards and less. The skills test is done from 15-200 yards. You don't need magnification to "DG" (distinguished graduate) the course. My unmagnified AP worked just fine. Iron sights - If you had no optic, you were instructed to use the large aperture on the A2 rear sight. No "cheating" by using the small aperture, even at 200 yards. School guns - If you don't have a rifle, FS will loan you a gun. I didn't pay attention, but I think they were dissipator-type carbines (16" bbl, long sight radius, A2 stock, A2 sights). Tac latches - A lot of people had Badger Ordnance extended latches on their charging handles. Given that malfunction clearances are a big part of the skills test, this is probably a good idea. I screwed up a type-2 clearance on the test, and I think it's because I short-stroked the charging handle (didn't get a good enough grip on it). I've never used an extended latch before. Question: Are these tac latches a good idea for more positive malfunction clearances, or are they a gimmick? Mag pouches - I used a Blade-Tech kydex pouch which pointed the bullets forward. This didn't work too well as I had to twist my hand to properly grab the mag. I noticed the instructors had pouches that pointed the bullets rearward and that seemed much more natural. Any comments on this? Tac slings - Previously I was told that the instructors weren't crazy about 3-point tactical slings, but that was not apparent at this class. I saw instructors using 3-point and 1-point tac slings. The only negative thing they said about them was when you're clearing a house, be sure to get out of the sling. Otherwise if you're turning a corner and Mongo grabs your rifle, he'll take you to Disneyland with it. Ammo - I used Winchester Q3131A and it worked perfectly. Some students used Wolf and had no problems. I would never use Wolf, but at least it functioned fine in their AR's. For that matter, all weapons functioned fine all 4 days. Skills test - You have 5 seconds on the 100 yard shots. Not too many went prone at this range. I did and as long as you get down quickly, you have enough time to get set up and squeeze off the shot. Just my humble opinion, but after having taken the 4-day Defensive Handgun and now the 4-day Practical Rifle, I think the Handgun test is MUCH harder. I don't know how many students graduated, but my guess is that less than half did. Anyone know what the average graduation rate is? Being in the software industry, I'd have to give Front Sight an SEI level 5 rating. They definitely have their act together. FWIW |
That's a LOT! Wow.
This is surprising.
Yep.
Totally essential! I love them. They are on all my rifles (except my Sigs).
It's a personal preference, but once you start doing emergency reloads against the clock you find that bullets rearward works better.
Tac slings are helpful if you are constantly using your hands and rarely going prone. This is, of course, the case for FS instructors. Actually doing the course with tac slings is harder than using normal M16 slings.
Did you notice how anyone with a tac sling had to get out of it before going prone? There was actually an extra line order in most of the classes I went to. "Tac sling users... REMOVE YOUR TAC SLING." If you are going to be carrying your rifle all day and spending most of your time searching people, putting hands on things or holding a clipboard then tac slings are a good idea. If you are doing anything else, they are a bad idea.
Rifle (not handgun) is considered the hardest or the second hardest (after master prep) depending on who you talk to. The rifle graduation rate is really low. |
Interesting. We were not given any commands to get out of our Tac slings. The line command was "FREE FORM", meaning you could stand, kneel, sit or take a few steps back and go prone. I used a Giles 3-point Tac sling and kept it on when going prone. It didn't constrain nor hang up when I dropped down. Worked good for me, and if I take another rifle class I'll use the same sling setup. Thanks for the comments regarding the Tac Latch. I wonder if an extended latch will dig into your chest if you have a Tac sling, especially in warm weather when all you're wearing is a T-shirt. Any recommendations on which latch to buy? I see Badger Ord has a new model, and Model-1 has a (less expensive) one too. |
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I took the same course in May with my girlfriend. I would have had a better time if I wasn't babysitting her, loading her mags, and keeping her from quitting. She was frustrated by the fast pace during the first 2 days, where they try to pack as much in for the sake of the 2-day participants. Days 3 and 4 are much more enjoyable - I think they should separate the two classes. She did well, she just didn't expect it to be as physically demanding and fast paced as it was. Her prior experience was 2 days of handgun training at Sigarms in NH, and a DCM Small Arms Firing School/Highpower match. A few of the women in the class were griping by day 4, as were a few of the men. She really liked the night shoot, cooler and less pressure. As for myself, I thoroughly enjoyed the drills and the opportunity to wring out my Bushy M4gery, with Aimpoint ML2. Did well even out to 200yards, as long as the dot was dialed down to where it was barely visible. It would cover the entire thoracic cavity area on the target at that range, but centering it on the neck like a reverse lolipop kept things in the zone. I've taken the free subgun there as well, expected to shoot more than we did but what can you expect for free... When I was there for the 4-day class I paid for the opportunity to put 300 rounds full auto from an M16 out the side of a helicopter in their 'sniper canyon'. The ride alone was worth the $$, and for a civvy from a non-NFA state the trigger time was an added bonus. FS seems to do a huge amount of pistol training for people from CA and western states. Most folks in my class had AR15's, with a few M1A's and one AR10. Optics need to be flexible from 5 to 200 yards, the guy with the Hubble telescope on his M1A had issues with the closer ranges and night shoot. I'll be going back with some friends next year, maybe use my A4 this time. Girlfriend stays home. |
Have you taken a course at FS with that BAR-10 before this time? |
Good Job on going out and getting trained!
What were you doing on the 2nd day?
I'll bet this instructor spends most of his time with standard scopes and firing longer ranges. For CQB pushing the scope out makes more sense.
How about at 400y? I can't imagine using the large aperture at that range.
I don't care for the Badgers - they have a tendancy to keep sticking me in the ribs when using a 1 point or 3 point sling. Personally I prefer the PRI if I'm going to use an extended latch (right now I only have it on my 20" - carbines have the stock latch till I get enough PRIs to do all the carbines).
They are good for getting a more positive grip when using gloves and/or optics mounted near the rear.
I use the Wilderness mag pouch (as recommended by the cadre of FIRE Institute). You can store magazines with the bullets pointed forward or back. Personally I have the bullets pointing forward (as taught by FIRE) Lift magazine, rotate hand, slam magazine into the well. Pretty fast and easy and the forefinger goes along the front of the magazine. The figer directs the mag (just like swapping handgun magazines) and can check the capacity of the magazine.
This is always an interesting discussion. One of the reasons why I went to a single point on my carbines was so I could quickly remove it should I not want/need to have it. However there was a great discussion on 3 Point slings and weapon retention in mid October on [email protected] after a course taught by Steve Tarani & Randy Caine at FIRE Institute was completed. I've worn my 3 point loose enough, and the fact I use a short (Sully) stock allows me to get into prone with a 2 point, I've also not had problems getting into prone with a single point.
Good to know - thanks for your comments and insight on the course. |
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Front sight is okay but I avoid those guys like a plaque. The owner is a Scientologist and he runs his shop like those Scientologist. I heard too many people with horror stories about their Gold, Platinium package going south. Most of the notible trainner has left the school and went else where, all the Trainners at FS are clones of the owner. they train from one book written by the owner. |
AJNTSA. 
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Chessman - Thanks for the great review. I took the 4-Day Practical Rifle with a Remington 700 ADL in .308 with a 2x7 scope that I kept at 2x the whole time. It was fun punching big 30 caliber holes in the target while everybody punched puny .22 caliber holes.  I graduated but didn't get distinguished graduate - I need a good bit more practice to be at that level. In 2005 I should be taking the 4-day Select Fire M-16. Gun is provided by them and I think they run it with M4's with iron sights. |
I stand corrected! Thanks, the class was a blast (pun intended). |
The 2nd day was spent zeroing our rifles from a rested position. We established a 50/200y zero. This took a long time with 40 students. While one relay was shooting, the other relay was introduced to malfunction clearances. The latter part of the day was instruction on house clearing.
At 400 the iron sight users switched to the small aperture. With my old eyes I could barely see the targets. The 3-MOA dot on my AP pretty much covered the entire target, so I held the top of the dot at the top of the head and seemed to make the hits (at least that's what the instructor was telling me.) Good feedback on the Tac latches and mag pouches. Thanks! |
You have to ask those embarressing questions, don't you?  I had -12 after the shooting portion, but lost the DG on my type-2 malfunction clearance miscue. Bummer. Shot that score with a 10-inch upper too. (BIG SIGH) |
Why yes, I have! June 19-20 Skill Builder July 5-6 Skill Builder September 17-20 4-Day Practical Rifle September 25-26 Skill Builder October 8-11 4-Day Practical Rifle November 1-2 Skill Builder November 12-15 4-day Practical Rifle All with the BAR-10. |
Thanks for your informative review!
I've noticed that too on this board. It boils down to personal preference. For me, I found it much faster and easier to pick up the reticle (EoTech/Aimpoint) when the optic was on the receiver than when on the handguard. Also, the weapon was more manueverable with the less weight up front. One optic doesn't weigh that much, but when combined with a SureFire, VFG with extra batteries, etc. the weight really adds up quick (especially on a SIR system!!)
I have my spare mags on my left side, bullets pointing to the rear (I'm a northpaw). It is just natural to me to pull out and rotate the open end of the mag towards the target, continuing the upwards sweep to the magwell. Others like flipping the mag (bullets foward) sideways to insert. When my wife enrolled at a class at ITTS, I took her shopping for BladeTech kydex pouches for her Glock. You can insert the mags either way in the pistol mag pouch, and the counter cluck (clerk) insisted that she insert with bullets foward. When we got home I had her try both ways and she too found bullets back much faster and more natural. Again, personal preference.
Then he'll post photos of it and you on those step aerobics stands. 
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