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Posted: 3/24/2007 4:59:04 PM EDT
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Rock River Stripped lower and a Model 1 CAR kit. shot some custom loads today (less than the suggested max) 5 shots of each load (3 loads) first group of five - 1 double tap second group of five - ok third group of five - full auto (4 shots) I put the gun away after that. anybody else ever have this problem? what should I look for? thanks for any help I will probably call Mod 1 next week gonzo |
That could be the cause of your problem. Did you try it with some full-power factory ammo? Have you ever shot it before, or is it brand new? If it's something wrong with the internals, I don't have the knowledge to correct it, but see if you can eliminate ammo as a variable first, by shooting some reliable factory rounds (Remington UMC, Winchester White Box, Federal American Eagle, any of those, or any military 5.56). |
You were smart to "put the gun away" shooting full auto in a semi equipped sear kit is very dangerous. It sounds like your disconnector is malfunctioning. Check it twice over and call the manufacturer. If you have fired it before without any problems then I suspect the disconnector is too soft and wore down to the point of malfunction. Now if the disconnector is not locking the hammer back them it would just fly forward once it clears the bolt. The danger is that bolt must rotate and lock before the hammer is allowed to strike the firing pin. Again this is very dangerous. Give it careful attention. constitutionlvr is right, it is a Federal Offence and will earn you a long prison stay and large fines. Have it fixed by a professional gunsmith before you fire it again. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be here shortly to explain it in more detail. |
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Conman (and everyone else) Thanks for the replies I didn't want to tear into things until I half ass new what I should be looking for. Tore down to the disconnecter, and sure enough the spring was upside down (fat side up), so I turned her around and put her back together. It might be a couple of days before I get out again, but I'll let you know how it goes. Gonzo |
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I love it when people who admittedly don't know that much come in and diagnose the problem. He didn't build a rifle with the intention of building an automatic weapon. He said he ordered the standard CAR kit from Model 1 Sales, not an M16 kit and he's acknowledged that something was wrong, which is why he's here. He wants to know how to fix it and didn't ask for advice on the legality of a post-86 MG build. Gonzogun, have you performed a function check on the lower? Do this: -Place the safety to fire. -Pull the trigger and hold to the rear, the hammer should fall -Continue to hold the trigger to the rear, reset the hammer, and release it -Release the trigger with a slow, smooth motion until the trigger is fully forward The hammer should not fall and you'll hear a click as the hammer is caught -Pull the trigger, the hammer should fall. If everything checks out ok, then it's your ammo or your form. |
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Check Just did a "Function Test" as you described. Seems to be just fine I might get out tomorrow and run some ammo through it. Thanks Lawman for the comment. obviously I was not trying to build a full auto AR Hence the question mark in the title. I thought that I may have done something wrong or I had some bad parts. Believe me, it scared the hell out of me when I shot a 4 shot burst. Hopefully the disconnecter spring was the solution to the problem. Thanks again everyone. This is my first AR, and the help is appreciated Gonzo |
That kinda rubbed me wrong as well, i feel the same. Was gonna say something  Thx Lawman 
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Can you point out where someone said he deliberately tried to build a full auto? I don't see it in this thread. He was simply made aware of two things: 1. Full auto is illegal and hence his rifle requires immediate attention. (Regardless if he "tried' to build a full auto or not, if his rifle fires full auto and he gets caught with it then he is liable and will have a whole lot of explaining. Even if he “gets off” it’s still a hassle he does not need) 2. That any semi which fires full is a dangerous rifle which must be fixed. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in these posts and I hope the community keeps our members aware of danger and federal law.
"If everything checks out ok, then it's your ammo or your form." Are you KIDDING ME? Your telling this guy his ammo or his form are the cause of Full-Auto fire? If the function check is ok how do you figure his ammo is responsible for full auto fire? I've used all type of ammo in my rifle from handloads to surplus to steel cased wolf. I've never had it go auto on me. My form never caused my M4 to go full auto either. That makes no sense to me! Can you explain? Eddited To Add: -------------------- I just coulden't resist this comment "I love it when people who admittedly don't know that much come in and diagnose the problem." Lawman734 I do admit that there are people on here who are more knowledgeable then me, but you are obviously not one of them. When you make a comment like "If everything checks out ok, then it's your ammo or your form." it speaks volumes of your knowledge of the internal workings of the AR-15. His ammo made his semi rifle shoot in full-auto mode? His form did?  gonzogun No one here said you did anything wrong. constitutionlvr and I simply made you aware of the harsh penalties Federal Law carries. Getting caught with a Full-Auto is not a light matter and it's not a hassle you need, on top of which it's dangerous. That is why I stated that you were smart to put the rifle away and that you should get it fixed before you shoot it again. Plain and Simple YOU DID THE RIGHT THING! Now I know it's comforting when someone like Lawman734 comes in sais "you did nothing wrong, just do a Function Test". But you would be wise not to take the advice of someone telling you it's your Form or Ammo that is the cause of Full-Auto fire. That is just absurd. Nothing funnier to me then a member coming in, insulting others and then dispenses dumb advice, what a sketch. I see you are new to the forum so Welcome to Ar15.com. Keep in mind that It’s actually conman who got it spot on with the disconnector spring. He is the type of knowledgeable member you would want to get advice from. |
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Frag, thank you for your meaningless post. Am I kidding you? No-I am spot on with what I say in doing a function check to ensure the proper assembly and functioning of the lower. If the disconnector spring is upside down and was forced in the wrong way, it'll show up in a function check and he should see the disconnector stick and not catch the hammer. If the disconnector is soft and is now out of spec-it'll show up in the function check. He should also see that all the parts engage each other without slipping. So how the fuck am I kidding you by saying to do a function check on the rifle? I have by no means said that being caught with a Post-86 MG is a light matter. I meant what I said in that the first posts thrown out were the potentional consequences of being caught with one. You and Harco were the first to suggest something to fix the problem (both incidently which would be caught in the function check you scoffed at). I think he's aware of the legal issues considering he was asking how to fix it as opposed to going "hey guys, look what I did to make my rifle go auto". By him posting here and acknowledging that there was something wrong with the rifle and asking how to fix it, I think he's aware that there is something wrong and he doesn't want any issues. He asked how to fix the rifle not for the legality of Post-86 machine guns. As for form, I meant firing form-he didn't say what his experience is with AR's and the M16. It's possible that he is unintentionally causing a bump fire with the weapon. By doing steady, deliberate trigger pulls to the rear and holding it from shot to shot he can check there also. As for ammo causing full auto fire. It's uncommon, but he did say that he was shooting reloads. Some primers are known for having very thin cups (Winchester primers are the first that comes to mind), it is possible that the inertia of the firing pin hitting the primer could do this causing the rifle to slam fire-dangerous, you bet but still likely. This is a possibility that can be verified with a good ol' box of factory white box Winchester ammo. I would check everything in that order. If a function check revealed no problems, then I'd be test firing it again with factory ammo using good firing form (if that's indeed a problem). If the function check passes and nothing is binding, then it is obviously an outside source. Yes, you were correct in that a semi that shoots on auto is dangerous and needs to be checked. Yes, what Conman said can potentially cause the problem. Doing a function check of the lower will catch that. If the disconnector is too soft and worn (which is a possibility with M1S), it'll be caught in the function check as well. So Frag, am I kidding you?? Get real and read up some more before openly critisizing someone saying that they have no clue what I'm talking about when it's quite obvious it's the other way around. |
+1...I knew exactly where you were coming from. Good answer and explaination. Evidentally, some people THINK they know everything........ |
Once again, as before, the communication process has broken down! - Can you point out where I said doing a Function Test is the wrong thing to do? - Can you point out where someone said he deliberately tried to build a full auto? I don't see either in this thread. You need to read my posts twice over to understand them. To suggest I disagree with the function test is simply to manipulate the conversation. I agree with the function test and I commend you for suggesting it and YES the malfunctioning disconnector issue would have shown up in the test. What made me laugh (nearly spat my coffee all over my computer screen) was this comment "If everything checks out ok, then it's your ammo or your form." To suggest his ammo or his form is the cause of his rifle shooting in full-auto mode is farfetched at best. Look, this guy installed a Model 1 CAR Kit in a RRA stripped lower and is shooting hand loads. That by itself should make you understand that he is no rookie. To bump fire an AR to the point of near Full-Auto you need to be doing it from the hip with your thumb in your belt loop and trust me there is NO MISTAKE about it. You KNOW you are bump-firing it. The bottom line is this: Ammo or Form are not the cause of his Semi rifle shooting in Full-Auto mode, it is a mechanical issue with the internal workings of the lower. Plain and simple. That’s why I ask “Are you kidding me?”
I’m glad we agree on this. It’s just not a hassle anyone would want. I will state again that no one here suggested he deliberately attempted to build a Full-Auto.
You’re right, he didn’t. Nor did we suggest that he did.
Maybe, I still say to get a four round bump fire burst you will probably know what you’re doing. This guy put together a lower parts kit on a stripped lower and is shooting hand loads with different pressures. It’s safe to assume he would know what bump-fire is. Even though it sounds farfetched to me, I could be wrong.
See here is where you make no sense. With a high pressure load the rifle will make the bolt travel rearwards to the point of locking the hammer by the disconnector. With lower pressure loads the rifle will “Short Stroke”. None of which will make the rifle operate in Full-Auto Mode. You need to explain what you mean. I just can’t see that happening.
I agree, I never said doing a function test is the wrong thing to do. I commend you for suggesting it as it is SOP.
Well I still don’t see how it’s the other way around. Your comments on how Ammo or Form would be the cause of Full-Auto fire suggest you do not possess a great deal of knowledge on the internal workings of the lower. It is and was a mechanical malfunction. Funny thing is that I've put together dozens of AR's in different configurations, worked with a master gun smith for seven months and fired countless rounds in all modes over the years and I still openly state there are people who know more than me and I'm always willing to learn. There is no shame in that. Look you started your post with “I love it when people who admittedly don't know that much come in and diagnose the problem” Don’t be a “Sensitive Sally”. If you dish it learn to take it. Cheers m8t, I'll buy you a beer. |
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Fang Have you ever fired a semi auto that slamfired? I have had it happen with my M1 Garand with reloads. I swiched primers to CCI #34s and have no more problems. So yes ammo could be the problem. Also you can get an AR to bump fire from your shoulder. . Gonzogun You did the right thing putting the rifle away till you found the problem and fixed it. |
Not in an M1 Garand. In an Ar-15 yeah more then once but all slamfires were doubles. Never had a 4 round burst, did you? |
Frag, I don't get where you're coming from-I offered the correct course of action for the first step and then offered some alternatives. Once again, if the first course checked out ok-it's still an outside source that needs to be checked so remove as many variables as possible-including the handloaded ammo. I've got over a dozen AR's myself that I have built over the years and don't claim to be an expert either. My first line was a little harsh, but it wasn't directed at you or the one who suggested the disconnector spring-it was the first response regarding the ownership of Post-86 MG's, which is a no shitter or that it's just an ammo problem. The fact is we don't disagree on how to fix the problem, instead your picking apart other things to look at if the first should be ok. I say if the first is ok, then you need to remove the variables-regardless of how laughable they may seem. |
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got out this afternoon and put 30 rounds through it flawlessly. Problem solved....or it appears so. So far, so good. Working on some load development to find a nice accurate load. using a 55gr full metal jacket. By the way, are you guys finding it hard to find bulk .22 cal bullets? Thanks for all of your help. Gonzo |
Good to hear that everything is fixed. What kind of bullets are you looking for? If looking for pulldown bullets-I have no idea as I haven't bought them in a long time, but I haven't had any problem buying 500cnt boxes of Sierra MatchKings, etc. |
Never had a slamfire in an AR. The slamfires I had with my Garand were only doubles also. |
Here's my $.02: I had an AR several years ago that started to double, and got worse quickly, but the problem turned out to be a bad hammer. I've heard of parts referred to as "soft" and that hammer was definitely soft. The disconnector hook was worn down and the face was dented from striking the firing pin and no, I don't do a lot of dryfiring. That said, it was hard to recreate the condition during a function check unless I released the trigger VERY slowly. A new hammer solved the problem and the old one went in the trash where it belonged!!! 
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I won't argue with that. I've seen some people build AR's which were dangerously unsafe. Internet sales of rifles and parts kits are similar to handing a loaded revolver to a chimpanzee. Sooner or later he'll figure out how to get his finger inside that trigger guard.
I do, see below
This is what launched all of this nonsense. When you start your reply with patronizing, belittling and dismissing sentiments then these "arguments" are bound to happened. You say it wasn't directed at me, well I'm glad to hear it. Just a word of friendly advice; You shouldn't direct these comments at anyone at all. If you have something to contribute (and you did with the Function test) then great, post it and help the new guy figure out his issues. In any case all is good on my part. Like I said before I'll get the first beer. |
sheeeshhh talk about slamfires, read this post: Had a SLAMFIRE in the garage tonight!!! Pics and details... Thank God everyone is ok. |
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