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Posted: 10/15/2014 3:21:34 AM EDT
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I've been reading over posts on building an AR pistol, and here's what I've come up with. Now I should note that this is more for clarification and pricing things out to see what it'll cost me and figuring out feasibility.
-Barrel length shorter than 16" from tip of the threads to the receiver. -Barrel length does not include muzzle device, unless muzzle device is permanently fixed. -Overall length must be within 26", or it will fall under "firearm" instead of "pistol", but will NOT be subject to NFA. -CANNOT have a stock fixed to the lower receiver. -The Sig SB15 brace does NOT constitute a stock. -CANNOT have a vertical foregrip or it will constitute a Any Other Weapon (AOW) and thus be subject to NFA. -A Magpul Angled Forgrip (AFG) IS permissible and will not make the pistol an AOW. -Classified as a pistol, doesn't require CLEO signoff, and not subject to NFA. I priced things out, and found that PSA had the best deals that I could find: PSA blemished stripped lower: $49.99 PSA lower pistol kit: $99.99 PSA 14.7" CHF Mid-length Lightweight - Unpinned - Without BCG or Charging Handle: $279.99 PSA bolt carrier group and charging handle combo: $99.99 Sig SB15 brace: $129.99 Primary Arms Microdot: $119.99 Total estimated cost: $780 Now to get "fancy", and totally unnecessary: YHM 9.200" Smooth Forearm (A-frame cutout): $154.00 Total estimated cost: $934 Now there is a chance to get a PSA pistol lower with a SB15 brace for a little less, which shaves off about $10. Factor in shipping and transfer fees, and it's likely going to be right under $1,000. |
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Quoted: I've been reading over posts on building an AR pistol, and here's what I've come up with. Now I should note that this is more for clarification and pricing things out to see what it'll cost me and figuring out feasibility. -Barrel length shorter than 16" from tip of the threads to the receiver. There is no Federal law that lists a maximum length for pistol barrels. An AR pistol can have a 2" or 200" barrel if you so choose. -Barrel length does not include muzzle device, unless muzzle device is permanently fixed. Correct. This is also the method used for measuring overall length (OAL). -Overall length must be within 26", or it will fall under "firearm" instead of "pistol", but will NOT be subject to NFA. Not quite. If the OAL is under 26", it is a pistol and cannot have a VFG installed. If a "pistol" config build (basically anything with no stock) is over 26" OAL, it can have a VFG added. Adding the VFG reclassifies it into the "firearm", and removing it would return it to a "pistol". OAL alone has no barring between "pistol"/"firearm" classification (see answer to first question above). -CANNOT have a stock fixed to the lower receiver. Correct. -The Sig SB15 brace does NOT constitute a stock. Correct, the ATF has stated this in plain language. They have also stated that it is NOT illegal to actually "shoulder" the SB15 on a pistol. -CANNOT have a vertical foregrip or it will constitute a Any Other Weapon (AOW) and thus be subject to NFA. Correct, unless the OAL is over 26", then adding the VFG makes it into a "firearm", which is NOT subject to NFA restrictions (see answer to your 3rd question). -A Magpul Angled Forgrip (AFG) IS permissible and will not make the pistol an AOW. Correct. -Classified as a pistol, doesn't require CLEO signoff, and not subject to NFA. Correct, however, some states do have other specific requirements for what is and isn't considered a "pistol". Always double check your state laws to be sure. Federally, you are good-to-go. Sounds like a cool build, almost like an M4-gery clone with a true 14.5" barrel without going the SBR route.  |
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D_Man, thanks for the clarification
I was looking at building an M4-rgery without having to deal with the paperwork, but was also looking at trying to keep things at cost. I actually looked for a 10.5" barrel, it cost $50 more than the 14.7" barrel. It doesn't seem like a big price difference, but it's enough of a price difference to note. It might be useful to have that extra 4" of barrel length for added velocity as well. |
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Extra velocity never hurts. The 10.5" barrels and uppers are in high demand since they are probably the most popular length used in both SBR builds and pistol builds (usually people looking to clone the Mk18 rifle without the NFA hassle), thus they can demand a higher price and are usually sold out quite quickly. The 14.5/14.7" barrels are some of the least sought after since many people just add the extra 2 inches or so and do a full rifle, so they can usually be found at lower cost. ETA: Damn nice price on that 14.7" midlength upper too.  |
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I'm rather fond of the 14.5/14.7" length, but that's just me. I'm sure if I got to handle a 10.5" more I'd fall in love with it.
Also, someone on another forum found this at Primary Arms. Radical Firearms 10.5", quad rail, and Sig brace: $599.99. All it needs is an optic and I'd be set. |
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Quoted:
I'm rather fond of the 14.5/14.7" length, but that's just me. I'm sure if I got to handle a 10.5" more I'd fall in love with it. Also, someone on another forum found this at Primary Arms. Radical Firearms 10.5", quad rail, and Sig brace: $599.99. All it needs is an optic and I'd be set. How do you get a 14.5" on it? I've got a 9.5 and OAL is 25", what am I missing? I've got a flash hider but that's only an inch-ish. 
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Quoted: How do you get a 14.5" on it? I've got a 9.5 and OAL is 25", what am I missing? I've got a flash hider but that's only an inch-ish. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/sea2summit1/DSC_0029_zps38374dd4.jpg Quoted: Quoted: I'm rather fond of the 14.5/14.7" length, but that's just me. I'm sure if I got to handle a 10.5" more I'd fall in love with it. Also, someone on another forum found this at Primary Arms. Radical Firearms 10.5", quad rail, and Sig brace: $599.99. All it needs is an optic and I'd be set. How do you get a 14.5" on it? I've got a 9.5 and OAL is 25", what am I missing? I've got a flash hider but that's only an inch-ish. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/sea2summit1/DSC_0029_zps38374dd4.jpg |
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They're referencing barrel length, not overall length... Quoted:
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I'm rather fond of the 14.5/14.7" length, but that's just me. I'm sure if I got to handle a 10.5" more I'd fall in love with it. Also, someone on another forum found this at Primary Arms. Radical Firearms 10.5", quad rail, and Sig brace: $599.99. All it needs is an optic and I'd be set. How do you get a 14.5" on it? I've got a 9.5 and OAL is 25", what am I missing? I've got a flash hider but that's only an inch-ish. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/sea2summit1/DSC_0029_zps38374dd4.jpg Yes but if I put a 14.5 on mine I would bust 26" OAL by several inches and I don't have any "excess" stuff on there for length. Wondering how people are fitting a 14.5 and keeping it a pistol. |
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Quoted: Yes but if I put a 14.5 on mine I would bust 26" OAL by several inches and I don't have any "excess" stuff on there for length. Wondering how people are fitting a 14.5 and keeping it a pistol. Quoted: ...Snip... Yes but if I put a 14.5 on mine I would bust 26" OAL by several inches and I don't have any "excess" stuff on there for length. Wondering how people are fitting a 14.5 and keeping it a pistol. |
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The "firearm" distinction only comes into play if you slap a VFG on it. Pistols can have any length BBL or OAL unless your state has specific laws against it as mentioned. Most don't have anything on the subject, but places like Cali get screwy with the definitions.
For example, if you built an M16 clone with a 20" barrel but never put a stock on it, it would still legally be a pistol. |
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Quoted:
I'm rather fond of the 14.5/14.7" length, but that's just me. I'm sure if I got to handle a 10.5" more I'd fall in love with it. Also, someone on another forum found this at Primary Arms. Radical Firearms 10.5", quad rail, and Sig brace: $599.99. All it needs is an optic and I'd be set. on a pistol i'd just go for some fixed sights personally, tritium sights maybe even, but anything else is overrated i think, but maybe that's just me. |
| The OAL is a PA thing that's more specific to me, from what I understand. I'm brand new to the concept of an AR pistol, so I'm still figuring out what the maximum length I can have for a barrel and still keep it under 26" overall. I'm not opposed to a 10.5" barrel, I was just hoping to get the extra velocity from the added barrel length. |
| if you want the added length i think you're better off with building a midlength/carbine rifle, the reason for pistols is compactness. with an 11.5 inch barrel mine fits straight through a door frame sideways. the 16inch mid length with the stock fully collapsed is about 2-3 inches too wide. as far as velocity goes, it's a pistol. do you intend to shoot it more than a 100 yards often?, because again, if you do a pistol isn't the best solution, out of a 10.5-12.5inch barrel i wouldn't worry about a 100 yard shot, and i certainly wouldn't worry about it not having enough velocity in a self defense situation, within a 100 yards. |
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I wasn't planning on shooting past 100 yards with it, but it would be nice to be able to. Again, I saw the 14.5/14.7" barrel being the cheapest option from PSA until the link from Primary Arms was pointed out to me, and that was my first thought. I don't have an issue trading off some of that velocity for the added maneuverability. I've already got an AR with a collapsible stock and 16" barrel, so I've got that as an option for shooting deeper, and the AR pistol idea is more for fun (and for the 'because I can' factor).
Curious, what is the feasibility of using an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel for home defense duty? I understand rifle rounds are loud as hell indoors, and that it will suck if I had to fire one inside. No, I don't plan on kicking down doors and clearing rooms with high speed low drag tacticool gear while yelling "get some". I'm just wondering what the pros and cons are in terms of additional noise, muzzle flash, maneuverability, (over)penetration, and terminal ballistics from an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel compared to a .40S&W from a 4.2" barrel. Again, just looking at the feasibility. |
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i'm sure with practice 150 yards is totally doable, probably more, but killing stuff at those distances may be an issue. how important is that to you?
at the distance most homes have for shooting i wouldn't want to get hit with a 10.5inch 5.56 30 feet from the barrel there's probably still enough velocity to fragment, certainly still enough to kill someone, so for home defense i'd call it very feasible, just loud. as for comparing, it's a hard direct comparison http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html 5.56 reliably fragments at 2500 fps. i'd get the primary arms deal and wait for these to get back in stock and call it a day, just add a sling when you get a chance. http://www.rogtac.com/optics-sights/magpul-mbus-pro-combo.html |
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.... How do you get a 14.5" on it? I've got a 9.5 and OAL is 25", what am I missing? I've got a flash hider but that's only an inch-ish. <a href="http://s29.photobucket.com/user/sea2summit1/media/DSC_0029_zps38374dd4.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/sea2summit1/DSC_0029_zps38374dd4.jpg</a> I believe you must be counting the flash hider to get that 25" with standard length buffer tube and 9.5" barrel. Which doesn't figure in if not permanently installed - OS |
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I wasn't planning on shooting past 100 yards with it, but it would be nice to be able to. Again, I saw the 14.5/14.7" barrel being the cheapest option from PSA until the link from Primary Arms was pointed out to me, and that was my first thought. I don't have an issue trading off some of that velocity for the added maneuverability. I've already got an AR with a collapsible stock and 16" barrel, so I've got that as an option for shooting deeper, and the AR pistol idea is more for fun (and for the 'because I can' factor). Curious, what is the feasibility of using an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel for home defense duty? I understand rifle rounds are loud as hell indoors, and that it will suck if I had to fire one inside. No, I don't plan on kicking down doors and clearing rooms with high speed low drag tacticool gear while yelling "get some". I'm just wondering what the pros and cons are in terms of additional noise, muzzle flash, maneuverability, (over)penetration, and terminal ballistics from an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel compared to a .40S&W from a 4.2" barrel. Again, just looking at the feasibility. If your plan on going with the 14.7" barrel why non just have the A2 flash hider pinned and put it on a rifle lower? A pinned A2 would bring you to 16.1" and be peferctly legal for a rifle lower, that is why you see so many 14.5" and 14.7" with the right muzzle break pinned they make them legal to use on rifle lower. If you going to make a pistol than make a pistol and use an upper with barrel that is 12.5" or less. A 10.5" heck even a 7.5" has more than enough velocity to use at HD distances. I use my 11.5" pistol for deer hunting. Granted the longer you go the less muzzle flash and noise will be created. My 11.5" isn't terrible but definitely louder than my 14.7" pinned rifle or 16" rifle. Edit: Here is a PSA 10.5" I realize it is $50 more than the Primary Arms one, but the barrel is top quality, and probably worth the $50 premium http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/2109/category/4231/ Here is another option comes with a free BCG and you can save $10 on a BCM charging handle in the drop down menus. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-11-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-11.htm or if it were me the light wieght http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-11-5-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-car-11lw.htm The cons I see with the Radical firearms upper are Phosphate barrel, and SOCOM contour. SOCOM contour is between M4 and HBAR, it is heavier that M4 or lightweight, IMO keeping the weight down helps a pistol feel more compact. The other issue is no chrome lining or melonite in a cheaper barrel, not that you will ever shoot it out in your lifetime, but I prefer some kind of coating on lining of my barrels. |
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Damnit, RougeSpear, this is why AR's are going to bankrupt me.
Can you give me a quick down and dirty on how pinning the flash hider makes owning a 14.7" completed upper legal without it requiring a tax stamp? Also, it'd still be cheaper to get the Radical Arms 10.5" completed pistol. If I got the PSA 10.5" upper and got a good rear sight, it'd put me around $675, and then I can throw on a rail if I wanted to later for another $154 (because why not?). I will admit, that's not too much more (minus the rail), and the rail isn't necessary, so that's a pretty good option. Plenty of ways to skin this cat, which is why AR's are awesome and a bitch at the same time. |
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.... Can you give me a quick down and dirty on how pinning the flash hider makes owning a 14.7" completed upper legal without it requiring a tax stamp? . Because a "permanently" attached muzzle device (to ATF specs) counts in both legal barrel length and legal overall length. A 2" barrel becomes a legal 16" one with addition of a 14" permanently attached muzzle device/extension, if you wanted to do that for whatever bizarre reason. - OS |
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Damnit, RougeSpear, this is why AR's are going to bankrupt me. Can you give me a quick down and dirty on how pinning the flash hider makes owning a 14.7" completed upper legal without it requiring a tax stamp? Also, it'd still be cheaper to get the Radical Arms 10.5" completed pistol. If I got the PSA 10.5" upper and got a good rear sight, it'd put me around $675, and then I can throw on a rail if I wanted to later for another $154 (because why not?). I will admit, that's not too much more (minus the rail), and the rail isn't necessary, so that's a pretty good option. Plenty of ways to skin this cat, which is why AR's are awesome and a bitch at the same time. Because if you pin and weld, silver solder, or weld the muzzle brake to the barrel it becomes part of the barrel and therefore part of the legal length. I guess if you want a 14.7" just pin the muzzle device on, and save yourself building another lower if that is the route you want to go. If you want to go the pistol route, I would highly recommend either the PSA or BCM uppers, the barrels they use are far superior to the Radical Firearms barrels. I am also unsure of what rail they use, but when you consider a decent rail is the $100-200 range, I want to question the quality of their rail a bit, when you also consider the $120 sig brace, I mean they are cutting corners somewhere to build a $600 pistol, particularly when they have markup, and Primary Arms has a mark up, and then there is the 17% tax on completed firearms. That said from the range reports they seem like great pistol, but for me I usually like my firearms to be trust worthy if I need them when SHTF. Its hard to beat a $600 pistol though, even if some of the parts are not the best. |
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I hadn't thought of proportions (obviously), but that seems like a really long muzzle device. It also seems like it negates the point of trying to go for a shorter barrel.
I really like PSA's stuff, and if I can swing the extra cash, I'd go for it. It really depends on how much I have to cut costs down when I do get around to making this. It's hard to beat a completed 10.5" AR pistol for $600, but it'd be nice to know it's from a manufacturer I've already had good experience with. I'm going to try to keep that option open, and we'll see where things stand down the road. |
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