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Posted: 12/23/2016 8:56:31 PM EDT
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I've been thinking about getting an AR style 308 and not sure which way to go. I did consider alternatives like a PTR 91 or M1A and while I wouldn't mind having either I've settled on an AR type for my first .308. This rifle will be used for longer range target shooting (600-800 yrds or so) and possibly an alternative to my 30-06 for deer/elk hunting.
Locally I've been able to find a few from smaller companies such as Adams Arms, Diamondback and Civilian Force and also looked at some online options like Live Free. I've also been thinking about the M&P 10 and DPMS options. All are in the same price range, have their pluses and seem nice but the M&P seems the "safer" option as it's a major company and I have found lots of positive reviews. The downside to the M&P is that you pay a bit for that name. It comes with basic furniture and all the smaller names come with better features and often free float aluminum rails. However, they also seem more or less like what I could build myself from parts. However, I don't want to build and just want one that is good to go out of the box. Granted, I'll likely upgrade a few things. If you have an AR style 308, can you share what you have and why you chose it over other options. Thanks. |
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I say build so you get what you want
Aero has some great deals on upper, lower and handguard combos. If you want accuraccy, that barrel and bolt will matter and then you are talking dollars when looking at JP etc. If military grade accuracy is acceptable, plenty of barrels and very good prices. You get the trigger you want, accessories etc. build....no question about it |
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I may explore building one someday, but for now that's not what I'm interested in. I keep coming back to the M&P because of all the good press and reviews I've found. Seems to be a lot of consensus around it being reliable, having good accuracy and reasonable weight.
This guy seems convinced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JPnPFp2G44 |
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I elk hunt with mine, a 16" DPMS gen 1 with a 1x4 optic. It works very well, but is a pig to carry after a few days. I still prefer it over my lighter bolt guns for elk, unless we are hunting the elk when they are down and long shots rule.
I have two of the dpms 308s, the one above and a 20" that they called the infantry model. As a former infantryman, that would have been a beast. Like 13 lbs empty. My experience with them has been mixed, they are extremely accurate, the 20" gun has always been 100% reliable, but the 16" had lots of issues feeding early on. I still won't try any of my surplus S African ball in it, which sucks cause I have a pile of it. It will lock up tight on chambering it, but I have settled on 165 gr accubond handloads for hunting and a Speer 165 for range work. I just got stuck on these dpms guns cause my local guy always had them cheap. I'm going to see how the small frame 308s play out in the next year or so, and probably sell both dpms and get a lighter one. I really think a 20" bbl would be ideal, with no muzzle device it will only be 2.5" longer than my 16" and still at least a pound lighter. Hell, I might end up with that dpms gen 2 light hunter unless somebody else has a similar offering for under 2k. |
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Work bought me a DPMS LR308 for anti-sniper, so when I bought one, I bought the same thing. That was back when the only platforms were the AR-10 from Armalite, the DPMS, or the SR-25 which was way out of cost range for my department. I think LaRue came out about the same time, but it was a bit later as well, and the cost was higher than my department wanted to spend.
Since then, so many individual companies have come out with option, like the lowers that take G3 mags and FAL mags. When I decided to go with a shorter build to be more portable than the LR-308, I ended up building my own using mostly Alexander Pro-Fab parts for the receivers, and then tailoring the rest the way I wanted to, only because the DPMS pattern was what I already had and was familiar with. If I had to get into them all over again from the beginning, I would probably go with the GII version, even though parts are proprietary, I've never had anything but good customer service from DPMS, so I wouldn't hesitate to buy something company specific. On the other hand, I've never had anything bad with Armalite either, and have owned several of their AR15 line, and now that they have the versions that use regular PMags, I wouldn't hesitate to go with one of them either. I just think the DPMS is still a bit cheaper. I know my Alexander build was under 800 all told. |
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SR25 DPMS format for compatibility. I have a Remington R25 (DPMS actually) it is a fantastic shooter and takes AR15 FCGs just fine (dropped a G SSA-E in mine) They are loud AF with a brake, just saying and heavy compared to an AR15. There really isn't such a thing as SR25/DPMS compatibility, unless we're vaguely talking about mags. The ArmaLite Inc. AR10 uses SR25 pattern upper. They actually used an SR25 upper when they did the testing with their M14 mag lower receiver in the mid-1990s. The Remington R-25s are built from parts sourced from the same place as DPMS LR-308, but the have lightening cuts in the rail on the upper, use Remington barrels, and some other unique specs from Remington. The ArmaLite Inc. guns are better engineered in pretty much every way, especially looking at the BCG and sprung firing pin. |
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I may explore building one someday, but for now that's not what I'm interested in. I keep coming back to the M&P because of all the good press and reviews I've found. Seems to be a lot of consensus around it being reliable, having good accuracy and reasonable weight. This guy seems convinced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JPnPFp2G44 We need a warning before we get tricked into clicking on a Nutnfancy video please. |
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It sounds like the entry level Armalite would be perfect for you. If you want to upgrade someday, rails and furniture are easy to swap, the rest should be good to go forever, or untill you get your next AR-308. I don't know much about the Armalite options other than they tend to be a bit pricier. I was under the impression they are a somewhat different format as well. The DPMS type seem to be more upscaled AR15s while the Armalite AR10 is more a "full sized" model. Of course, I'm not fully versed in these so that's mostly a generalization based on comments here and there. If anyone can clarify that would be great. |
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On the M&P 10, unless things have changed, and I haven't heard anything different, you may have an issue if later down the road you want to change the barrel length or caliber. Last I knew, S&W doesn't sell replacement barrels for that rifle, even to the original owner. I think there's a way to use another barrel and the M&P barrel extension, but I'm not up on the details that requires. The M&P 10 barrel/extension is apparently proprietary.
Many other quality big AR's allow you to buy other factory barrels and/or aftermarket barrels that drop right in. This may not seem like a big deal to you right now while you're buying a new rifle. However, people often find they'd like to try something else out on their existing platform in the way of a caliber change or barrel length. I have one Armalite that I did a caliber change and obtained a factory barrel. On another Armalite I changed the barrel length with a factory barrel. Many other companies allow the same swapping capabilities. On the M&P 10 I'd check closely to make sure they still don't adhere to the "no barrel sale" rule. I would not buy a big caliber AR from anyone who would not sell an owner a barrel option. This is the beauty of the AR platform...the ability to mod and easily change the gun...especially the barrel. |
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From what I recall, they changed their tune a long time ago. I think the bad mouthing on all the boards was catching up to them.
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On the M&P 10, unless things have changed, and I haven't heard anything different, you may have an issue if later down the road you want to change the barrel length or caliber. Last I knew, S&W doesn't sell replacement barrels for that rifle, even to the original owner. I think there's a way to use another barrel and the M&P barrel extension, but I'm not up on the details that requires. The M&P 10 barrel/extension is apparently proprietary. Many other quality big AR's allow you to buy other factory barrels and/or aftermarket barrels that drop right in. This may not seem like a big deal to you right now while you're buying a new rifle. However, people often find they'd like to try something else out on their existing platform in the way of a caliber change or barrel length. I have one Armalite that I did a caliber change and obtained a factory barrel. On another Armalite I changed the barrel length with a factory barrel. Many other companies allow the same swapping capabilities. On the M&P 10 I'd check closely to make sure they still don't adhere to the "no barrel sale" rule. I would not buy a big caliber AR from anyone who would not sell an owner a barrel option. This is the beauty of the AR platform...the ability to mod and easily change the gun...especially the barrel. |
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I don't know much about the Armalite options other than they tend to be a bit pricier. I was under the impression they are a somewhat different format as well. The DPMS type seem to be more upscaled AR15s while the Armalite AR10 is more a "full sized" model. Of course, I'm not fully versed in these so that's mostly a generalization based on comments here and there. If anyone can clarify that would be great. On your observation about the Armalite price, I'd say the M&P 10 is the pricier rifle. I see about $1750 MSRP on a Magpul Moe equipped furniture M&P 10...no free float handguard. The Armalite A-Model with a non-free float handguard is about $1049 MSRP. For $1750 in an Armalite, and probably another quality brand or two, you can get a better equipped rifle with very nice furniture. |
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On your observation about the Armalite price, I'd say the M&P 10 is the pricier rifle. I see about $1750 MSRP on a Magpul Moe equipped furniture M&P 10...no free float handguard. The Armalite A-Model with a non-free float handguard is about $1049 MSRP. For $1750 in an Armalite, and probably another quality brand or two, you can get a better equipped rifle with very nice furniture. Good point. I was looking at their 18" barrel options and those are all more and similar to the M&P MSRP but the street price for the M&P is about $1300 and I can't find an Armalite in stock except the entry level DEF10 which is about $900-1000 street price. The Armalite has a slower twist. Most I've looked at are 1:10 and the Armalite is 1:11.25. What is the impact of the slower twist? |
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Good point. I was looking at their 18" barrel options and those are all more and similar to the M&P MSRP but the street price for the M&P is about $1300 and I can't find an Armalite in stock except the entry level DEF10 which is about $900-1000 street price. The Armalite has a slower twist. Most I've looked at are 1:10 and the Armalite is 1:11.25. What is the impact of the slower twist? You ask a good question about twist pros/cons. With both of my Armalite 1:11.25 .308 barrels, they shoot 168g Federal match ammo with amazing accuracy, so I suspect any diminishing accuracy issues could only appear at notably heavier bullet weights...like maybe 175g or higher. Not saying it will, but I've only gone as high as 168g. Frankly, I don't think the big caliber AR platform is that great a candidate for really heavy bullets anyway, and I'd be leaning toward a bolt rifle if accuracy with big, heavy bullets were my priority. I reload, and there are so many excellent choices in components and over-the-counter ammo for the .308 in the 150g-168g weight range that I wouldn't worry much about it. Look...I'm not necessarily promoting the Armalite as your only option. Windham and some others offer some great options at a more competitive price. On your observation of the Armalite DEF10, be aware that there's little difference between the basic foundation of the rifle...uppers, lowers, barrel, etc...between the DEF10 and the $2000-plus versions. You get better furniture and usually a two-stage or better trigger on the more expensive models. Many like the flexibility the DEF10 gives you in that you get basically the same rifle as the $2000 version, but then you get to choose the handguard and any other more preferential elements of the rifle...and probably still come in at a lower price. The same applies to some of the other brands available like the Windham and others. Buy the basic rifle and then pimp it out to your needs/preference. The critical parts of the rifles are uppers, lowers, barrel, and buffer system. Armalite and some others offer the same foundation components in those critical areas which allows you to pick your favorite add-ons. Again however, I suggest you make darned sure that S&W will sell you a barrel if you go that route. |
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Again however, I suggest you make darned sure that S&W will sell you a barrel if you go that route. So this is something I'm still unclear about. My understanding is that many of the AR10 style platforms use a fair amount of proprietary parts. I'm not clear on how a barrel can be proprietary. Is it because the receiver is different? It would seem like that part would be pretty standard. As long as the diameter was the same, slide new barrel in. If anyone can clarify this that would be great. Whether Armalite, S&W, and maybe others, is it not possible to use an aftermarket barrel? I guess my sticking point in the M&P is I like the idea of an 18" barrel - not too long, not too short. I've also heard good things about the 5R rifling. I'm also unclear on how the Armalite A and B series differ especially given the big price jump. All I see is a different trigger. Mag compatibility is confusing too. Do pmags not work in Armalite? |
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So this is something I'm still unclear about. My understanding is that many of the AR10 style platforms use a fair amount of proprietary parts. I'm not clear on how a barrel can be proprietary. Is it because the receiver is different? It would seem like that part would be pretty standard. As long as the diameter was the same, slide new barrel in. If anyone can clarify this that would be great. Whether Armalite, S&W, and maybe others, is it not possible to use an aftermarket barrel? I guess my sticking point in the M&P is I like the idea of an 18" barrel - not too long, not too short. I've also heard good things about the 5R rifling. I'm also unclear on how the Armalite A and B series differ especially given the big price jump. All I see is a different trigger. Mag compatibility is confusing too. Do pmags not work in Armalite? Yes, only the B-models don't use SR25 style P-mags. You'll probably want to choose the A-models, and the DEF10 is an A-model. B-models are the older version that use what is arguably a better M14 style steel mag, but many desire the more common and available SR25 style P-mag. Yes, there is a good deal of proprietary component issue with many AR10 type platforms. Still, those manufacturers and many aftermarket suppliers offer options and availability of barrels and such. I'm guessing for liability and/or some kind of marketing issue, S&W does not or at least did not sell their barrels to the public. The M&P10 is a very good rifle, so don't take my caveat as a slam to the gun. It's just that some of us would never buy an AR10 platform firearm that didn't allow a reasonable barrel swap option. This may not be an issue for you. Just being informed let's you know all the pros/cons. Perhaps this post will settle whether S&W has changed their position. Frankly, I hope they have. |
Armalite def10 with some upgrades and an Slr rail. Really nice rifle at a good price point. I spent a lot of money on it after I bought it, but I knew what I wanted going into it. It also has a lifetime warranty. There are just too many variables in the ar10 world for me to build one. If you buy the armalite you know it will run like it should, then you can upgrade it as your budget allows. |
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http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/honeybadger489/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-07-01%2018.43.02_zpspupczesp.jpg Armalite def10 with some upgrades and an Slr rail. Really nice rifle at a good price point. I spent a lot of money on it after I bought it, but I knew what I wanted going into it. It also has a lifetime warranty. There are just too many variables in the ar10 world for me to build one. If you buy the armalite you know it will run like it should, then you can upgrade it as your budget allows. Okay, you guys have me seriously thinking about the DEF10. I still don't see why the A-Series Carbine (A10A4CBF) is nearly $500 more than the DEF10. |
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Okay, you guys have me seriously thinking about the DEF10. I still don't see why the A-Series Carbine (A10A4CBF) is nearly $500 more than the DEF10. They use crappy furniture and triggers in the DEF10. The other has better trigger, and Armalite branded furniture. Why that costs 500$ more, i don't know. But the DEF10 uses the exact same barrel, bcg,and receivers. Just a lower quality LPK and furniture. I think it may skip a QC check as well. Their claim is streamlining shipping and manufacturing. ETA: Mine has been good for 800rds now. New years it'll get another few hundred. |
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They use crappy furniture and triggers in the DEF10. The other has better trigger, and Armalite branded furniture. Why that costs 500$ more, i don't know. But the DEF10 uses the exact same barrel, bcg,and receivers. Just a lower quality LPK and furniture. I think it may skip a QC check as well. Their claim is streamlining shipping and manufacturing. ETA: Mine has been good for 800rds now. New years it'll get another few hundred. Thanks for the info. How's the accuracy on yours? I've been reading the DEF10 is more a defensive rifle with 3-4 MOA accuracy but a few claim it's better. EDIT: A couple more quick questions. Why is the FSB rail .01" lower than the receiver? Seems like it would be harder to properly sight or need a special sight. Is there some value to having it lower? |
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I have a DPMS GII Hunter (formerly Lite Hunter) 20" barrel small frame .308 rifle. I've been very happy with it, so happy that I just bought another, to modify heavily. It's light, fairly compact, well balanced, handles well, packs well on long hikes, it's accurate and reliable. |
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Nice. I guess that means a magpul handguard fits. Is that a midlength? Did you have to modify it at all? Is it this one? https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-mlok-hand-guard-mid-length-ar15-m4 Any idea if this one will fit? https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-sl-hand-guard-mid-length |
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I recently bought a DPMS G2 because when I looked at whats out there, its the best and most updated AR 10 available. Everything else is just big, heavy and clunky in comparison. Add in the small upgrades like titanium firing pin, integrated trigger guard, completely redesigned bolt, monolithic gas key, flared magwel, etc, etc, and its a hell of a value.
When I ran the numbers, the way I looked at it, I could have it rebarrelled, worked over by a pro, slap on whatever specific parts I want, and STILL end up cheaper than the 'better' options out there. What I CANT do is take a known name like Armalite, etc, and reduce the size, weight and handling. Yeah, the Gen I has lots of lightweight options but guess what, most of those I can also use on my G2 and end up even lighter and handier. However, no major rework was necessary, as mine works 100% out of the box and gets outstanding groups. The only change really 'necessary' has been an adjustable gas block, but I find thats the case for virtually every AR (IMO). |
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If you are buying a production gun, LMT and no looking back. If you are buying on a budget, Armalite, DPMS, Wyndham.
I say build one as you get what you want and unless you are buying an LMT, you will probably swap triggers, handguards etc etc. You will never really get away from the added weight vs an M4 as the platform needs to be beefier plus, weight really isn't a concern and is overhyped. The m4 platform is unique in it's weight regarding history of battle rifles. I put together an aero build and she's not heavy, reliable through 2k rounds with every type of ammo I could put through it and accurate enough. I'm buying a jp upper or just getting the barrel/bolt/gas block and then building an upper for a precision toy on the same lower. build is always better imho |
| Well, all things considered the Armalite DEF10 seems like the way to go. I can find it for around $900 and I don't feel it needs much in the way of upgrades outside maybe a magpul stock and handguard. Seems a good place to start. Down the road I might look for something more long range oriented and maybe do a build for that. Right now I want sometime simple and ready to go. I still kind of like the M&P but not sure it's worth the $400 or so premium. I looked at a DPMS locally and it seemed nice but was fairly heavy compared to others they had and had a quad rail which seems like it might be a cheese grater with a 308. |
| I've owned a def10, maten, and now have a sr25. I'll be honest with you and say that the def10 is the way to go for starting out. You get a quality rifle with a great reputation and history behind you. You get the plus of the sr25/dpms mags with the def10 as well as the availability of parts over the S&W MP10. If you have a particular handguard that doesnt fit armalite rail heights (i.e. KAC), you can always get a Genesis CNC upper receiver and slap it on your Armalite lower. Viola, SR25 clone-city at a fraction of the price (these parts working together has been verified by Genesis for those wondering). |
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Well, all things considered the Armalite DEF10 seems like the way to go. I can find it for around $900 and I don't feel it needs much in the way of upgrades outside maybe a magpul stock and handguard. Seems a good place to start. Down the road I might look for something more long range oriented and maybe do a build for that. Right now I want sometime simple and ready to go. I still kind of like the M&P but not sure it's worth the $400 or so premium. I looked at a DPMS locally and it seemed nice but was fairly heavy compared to others they had and had a quad rail which seems like it might be a cheese grater with a 308. If you looked at a DPMS and it was heavy, you didn't look at a DPMS GII. They make covers for the rails, to make the unused portions of the rails much less likely to chew on you. |
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The Armalite has a slower twist. Most I've looked at are 1:10 and the Armalite is 1:11.25. What is the impact of the slower twist? Originally, 7.62MM rifles (the M14, etc.) had 1:12 twists for 150gr bullets. Match shooters wanted heavier pills, so they went to 1:10. Eventually, it was found that 1:11.25 stabilized pills up to 180gr, and were more accurate. Most barrels intended for serious accuracy are now 1:11.25 twist. One good thing about the M&P is that it's a 5r bbl, while the others have traditional lands. |
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Originally, 7.62MM rifles (the M14, etc.) had 1:12 twists for 150gr bullets. Match shooters wanted heavier pills, so they went to 1:10. Eventually, it was found that 1:11.25 stabilized pills up to 180gr, and were more accurate. Most barrels intended for serious accuracy are now 1:11.25 twist. One good thing about the M&P is that it's a 5r bbl, while the others have traditional lands. Thanks for the info. There is a lot to like about the M&P but I don't know if it's worth the price premium. I'm really torn and since no one has either the M&P or Armalite locally I'm going to have to order sight unseen and hope for the best. |
| Well, I ended up ordering the M&P. I actually tried to order the DEF10 from gunprodeals but the order wouldn't go through and their customer support wasn't any help. I then tried to do a price match on Bud's but they didn't get very close. Even with free shipping was still going to be over $100 more wth their CC fees. I was getting annoyed and decided maybe it was a sign that I should just go with my first choice. I'm not really worried about barrel replacement issues and apparently S&W is willing to address this now if it was an issue. I ordered from grabagun so we'll see how they are. |
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Well, I ended up ordering the M&P. I actually tried to order the DEF10 from gunprodeals but the order wouldn't go through and their customer support wasn't any help. I then tried to do a price match on Bud's but they didn't get very close. Even with free shipping was still going to be over $100 more wth their CC fees. I was getting annoyed and decided maybe it was a sign that I should just go with my first choice. I'm not really worried about barrel replacement issues and apparently S&W is willing to address this now if it was an issue. I ordered from grabagun so we'll see how they are. Congrats on your purchase! I love my M&P10 and it has performed flawlessly. |
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