AR Sponsor
Posted: 6/21/2013 12:19:44 PM EDT
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Hey all. A month ago I knew nothing at all about the AR platform. Then I bought a stripped lower "just in case" for a fair price. Now I am happy to say that I have all the parts for the lower half and I am ready to buy top end parts. Just having that lower in my apartment is tough. I have spent a lot of time researching on the Internet but have managed to stack up a few questions before buying more parts. I plan on a 16" barreled upper. For quality, availability, and price reasons I plan on buying my upper from PSA during one of the sales they run all the time. I want a quality AR with good parts but I am a civilian and no mall ninja.
1. I have come across mostly carbine length gas system and some mid length gas system. Web searches seem to all have people saying, "get a mid length." Obviously since both types are still being manufactured there must be advantages and disadvantages to both. What are they? 2. Also if I plan to run troy flip up sights is there an advantage to having the sight on a rail or a gas block? Do these style of front sights hold zero well over time or am I better off with an a2 front sight? 3. I am planning on stocking up on a few dozen mags. I am leaning towards p-mags and already bought 3 of the 3rd gens I found in stock at a local shop. I like the windowed mags so when I see them that is what I plan on buying. A local shop has ten packs of windowed 2nd gens for 140. Should I be waiting for the 3rd gens or are these good to go? Are there better mags I should be buying? 4. Is there anything else I need to know before picking the parts I want or anything you wish you knew before putting together your first AR? Thanks to all in advance for your constructive help! |
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You should try this product called Google. They make this thing called a Search Engine. Its not an engine like a car engine, but... well, it's kind of hard to explain...sort of like, magic. |
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I can help with 1 and 3.....
1. The midlength results in lower gas pressure reaching the bolt carrier (at least on most maufacturer's rifles). This results in gentler shooting. But, a carbine-length is more apt to keep running in adverse conditions (dirty, dry, weak ammo, etc.) due to more gas pressure reaching the bolt carrier. I have both. For home defense I'd choose a carbine (oil tends to drain from your gun, thus it may become dry over a surprisingly short time). For long-range precision shooting I have a midlength. 3. Gen 2 PMAGs are fine, and Gen3 are readily available online at pre-panic prices (look on this forum under AR15->Magazines->magazine deals and availability..... the thread is up to like 647 pages now). For me personally, I have a variety of magazines. Sometimes a particular AR15 won't "like" a certain brand of mags. For example my circa 2008 DPMS hates Gen1 pmags but loves everything else. I tend to buy my mags in 4's, so I'll buy say 4 Gen3 pmags, 4 Gen2 pmags, 4 NHMTG aluminums, 4 D&H, 4 C-products stainless, etc.. this allows me to hedge my bets as magazines are by far the most likely thing to get banned in the future. |
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Quoted: Hey all. A month ago I knew nothing at all about the AR platform. Then I bought a stripped lower "just in case" for a fair price. Now I am happy to say that I have all the parts for the lower half and I am ready to buy top end parts. Just having that lower in my apartment is tough. I have spent a lot of time researching on the Internet but have managed to stack up a few questions before buying more parts. I plan on a 16" barreled upper. For quality, availability, and price reasons I plan on buying my upper from PSA during one of the sales they run all the time. I want a quality AR with good parts but I am a civilian and no mall ninja. 1. I have come across mostly carbine length gas system and some mid length gas system. Web searches seem to all have people saying, "get a mid length." Obviously since both types are still being manufactured there must be advantages and disadvantages to both. What are they? 2. Also if I plan to run troy flip up sights is there an advantage to having the sight on a rail or a gas block? Do these style of front sights hold zero well over time or am I better off with an a2 front sight? 3. I am planning on stocking up on a few dozen mags. I am leaning towards p-mags and already bought 3 of the 3rd gens I found in stock at a local shop. I like the windowed mags so when I see them that is what I plan on buying. A local shop has ten packs of windowed 2nd gens for 140. Should I be waiting for the 3rd gens or are these good to go? Are there better mags I should be buying? 4. Is there anything else I need to know before picking the parts I want or anything you wish you knew before putting together your first AR? Thanks to all in advance for your constructive help! 1. Both are fine, pick which you think you will like more. "Possible reduced recoil and less wear on parts" aside, the Mid-length does offer a longer sight radius, which some like (2 more inches) 2. I personally like the standard front sight block, but that's me. The Troy flip-ups are high-quality, and should hold a zero fine. 3. USGI or Pmags (any flavor or Gen) are good to go. 4. READ, READ, READ! I wished I had found ARFCOM way earlier. 5. Ignore those who tell you to search. We were all noobs once, so don't feel bad for asking a question. Have fun!
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| You need to read more. People can only provide preconceived ideas/notions. You will learn you need to first experience what you don't like, before you will be able to differentiate what you do like / want. This aspect is unfortunately costly, but most educations aren't free. I did the same thing when I was first getting in to AR's. I would take some time and really think about how you will you using this rifle. The answers should become clear after that. |
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Quoted:
You should try this product called Google. They make this thing called a Search Engine. Its not an engine like a car engine, but... well, it's kind of hard to explain...sort of like, magic. Google has no soul. This site, and the members that contribute to it; do! 
Mid-length v. carbine gas system- In my experience the mid-length gives a more "soft" recoil impulse. The finest shooting ARs IMHO are fixed stock 20" rifles. You ride the recoil and for a longer duration, so to speak. Whereas a carbine's recoil is very abrupt. Naturally, in a world that produced the .40S&W- we have the mid-lengths and they're here to stay. My KACs have mid-length and I like em fine. Also, which I doubt unless you're running full auto- the carbine's short gas system puts more heat into the action. I don't know how much merit this claim has, but it's one I've heard. I personally prefer my BUIS on the rail. Again, my KAC MOD1 has this set-up and another consideration you may want to give is to have them rail mounted and offset at 45 degrees... The gas block mounted sites may be more "durable", but just don't have the flexibility of a rail mounted BUIS. They'll all hold zero equally well in my opinion, but if abuse were a concern; I'd give the advantage to the old fashioned front site post gas block; but repair/replacement isn't as simple and the flip down BUIS is less of a footprint to get snagged, banged or broken. Give-and-takes, there everywhere! Magazines. Here's my take FWIW. The yardstick is the USGI aluminum magazines by Okay (Colt), Center, etc. If a magazines is as good as these- it's good to go. I shouldn't bash my HKs, since I'm going to sell them- but here's what I wish I'd have known... HKs are a fine mag, and I've heard they've had some issues. Are they worse than a USGI? I don't think so. Do they command a premium price of 2-3x that of a USGI aluminum? My answer is no. Which brings us to polymer mags of which you say you're buying and intend to buy MP Pmags w/ windows. Do these works as good as USGI? My answer is a resounding "yes". Do they work better? Yes, again. They don't dent/bend and with the window- they offer a distinct advantage. Best of all, there's a dealer "ineedmoregear.com" in the EE selling gen 2 windowed for $13.49 each with $9.99 flat rate shipping. (I just looked and they were in stock) Why wouldn't you pay basically the same as a USGI AL when you get the Pmags for roughly the same price? Pmag G2 v. G3. I'm happy with the G2, but since I believe that if MP came out with a newer version, there had to be a reason. I believe I've heard that the opinion is that the G2 is more robust than the G3 as the G3 may be lighter to save on load-out weight. I can't comment on this angle. The G3 definitely has more (better) texturing for grip. Aside from that, the main difference I see is the G3 has a raised "shelf" on the back rib. This contacts the bottom of the mag well when you slam it home. I'm thinking this is to avoid the feed lips being slammed into the bottom of the bolt carrier causing damage and/or to save the mag catch from impact if the bolt is locked back and you slam the mag home... So personally I'll take either/or, but won't pay much of a premium for G3 over G2. As to you're item #4... AMMO. Lot's of ammo. There are very few "sub-par" parts manufacturers. Before you purchase any item based on name recognition, reviews or etc- ask yourself, "am I really going to take advantage of whatever feature "X" product is offering?". I've heard salt bath tests referenced as though it's a must have thing in a finish, and I'm in Montana.  Get an AR, then lots of ammo. When you have enough ammo, shoot it all up in practice. Then kick yourself for not purchasing twice the amount you thought you needed and replace with an equal or greater stash. THEN start tricking out your current AR or looking for your second one. (Which you really must have a minimum of 2, so get buying)
HTH Sly |
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Quoted:
You should try this product called Google. They make this thing called a Search Engine. Its not an engine like a car engine, but... well, it's kind of hard to explain...sort of like, magic. I have googled. A lot. Your first link doesn't address my question. I know this because I read it last week. It addresses a 14.5 inch barrel not a 16 and what people prefer about mid length vs carbine length not the advantages and disadvantages of both. Your second and third links were not helpful either as I asked about if a rail mount or gas block mount for a front sight holds a zero or if one is better than the other vs a regular A2 post. A review of this sight doesn't answer the question. I already read the reviews. Third, the 3rd gen p-mags have some improvements that I am already familiar with since I already googled this. I was looking to learn from people who have both and can compare them or suggest a different type of mag. Your 4th link I have already thoroughly reviewed as well. My questions were based on specifics to gaps in my researching as of thus far. Your sarcastic attitude is not helpful in the least bit. Please do not "contribute" to this thread anymore as it is not appreciated. |
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Quoted:
I can help with 1 and 3..... 1. The midlength results in lower gas pressure reaching the bolt carrier (at least on most maufacturer's rifles). This results in gentler shooting. But, a carbine-length is more apt to keep running in adverse conditions (dirty, dry, weak ammo, etc.) due to more gas pressure reaching the bolt carrier. I have both. For home defense I'd choose a carbine (oil tends to drain from your gun, thus it may become dry over a surprisingly short time). For long-range precision shooting I have a midlength. 3. Gen 2 PMAGs are fine, and Gen3 are readily available online at pre-panic prices (look on this forum under AR15->Magazines->magazine deals and availability..... the thread is up to like 647 pages now). For me personally, I have a variety of magazines. Sometimes a particular AR15 won't "like" a certain brand of mags. For example my circa 2008 DPMS hates Gen1 pmags but loves everything else. I tend to buy my mags in 4's, so I'll buy say 4 Gen3 pmags, 4 Gen2 pmags, 4 NHMTG aluminums, 4 D&H, 4 C-products stainless, etc.. this allows me to hedge my bets as magazines are by far the most likely thing to get banned in the future. Thanks for this. I was unaware that the carbine length would make for a more reliable rifle in the face of neglect or poor conditions. That is important to me. This makes me lean toward a carbine length. |
It's OK, I overlook the little things.
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Quoted:
4. Is there anything else I need to know before picking the parts I want or anything you wish you knew before putting together your first AR? Thanks to all in advance for your constructive help! 4- Buy the highest quality BCG, these are the parts that fail. How will it be used? Figure out what type of shooting you enjoy or will be able to do and then build your AR(and optic) based on that. If your ok with not having the "latest and greatest" accessories you can build an AR using last months "latest and greatest" products for a lot cheaper by buying in the EE. For example, everyone wants a aimpoint T1, cost $600+, you can buy a like-new comp M2 with mount for $300 in the EE. |
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I have googled... *** SNIP***... as it is not appreciated.
Whoa. Before your thread gets derailed, the links provided show me that though the comments may seem cutting, I'm pretty sure they were tongue-in-cheek. E-mails and text on a screen doesn't convey context too well, but your words are crystal clear... Sly |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You should try this product called Google. They make this thing called a Search Engine. Its not an engine like a car engine, but... well, it's kind of hard to explain...sort of like, magic. Google has no soul. This site, and the members that contribute to it; do!
Mid-length v. carbine gas system- In my experience the mid-length gives a more "soft" recoil impulse. The finest shooting ARs IMHO are fixed stock 20" rifles. You ride the recoil and for a longer duration, so to speak. Whereas a carbine's recoil is very abrupt. Naturally, in a world that produced the .40S&W- we have the mid-lengths and they're here to stay. My KACs have mid-length and I like em fine. Also, which I doubt unless you're running full auto- the carbine's short gas system puts more heat into the action. I don't know how much merit this claim has, but it's one I've heard. I personally prefer my BUIS on the rail. Again, my KAC MOD1 has this set-up and another consideration you may want to give is to have them rail mounted and offset at 45 degrees... The gas block mounted sites may be more "durable", but just don't have the flexibility of a rail mounted BUIS. They'll all hold zero equally well in my opinion, but if abuse were a concern; I'd give the advantage to the old fashioned front site post gas block; but repair/replacement isn't as simple and the flip down BUIS is less of a footprint to get snagged, banged or broken. Give-and-takes, there everywhere! Magazines. Here's my take FWIW. The yardstick is the USGI aluminum magazines by Okay (Colt), Center, etc. If a magazines is as good as these- it's good to go. I shouldn't bash my HKs, since I'm going to sell them- but here's what I wish I'd have known... HKs are a fine mag, and I've heard they've had some issues. Are they worse than a USGI? I don't think so. Do they command a premium price of 2-3x that of a USGI aluminum? My answer is no. Which brings us to polymer mags of which you say you're buying and intend to buy MP Pmags w/ windows. Do these works as good as USGI? My answer is a resounding "yes". Do they work better? Yes, again. They don't dent/bend and with the window- they offer a distinct advantage. Best of all, there's a dealer "ineedmoregear.com" in the EE selling gen 2 windowed for $13.49 each with $9.99 flat rate shipping. (I just looked and they were in stock) Why wouldn't you pay basically the same as a USGI AL when you get the Pmags for roughly the same price? Pmag G2 v. G3. I'm happy with the G2, but since I believe that if MP came out with a newer version, there had to be a reason. I believe I've heard that the opinion is that the G2 is more robust than the G3 as the G3 may be lighter to save on load-out weight. I can't comment on this angle. The G3 definitely has more (better) texturing for grip. Aside from that, the main difference I see is the G3 has a raised "shelf" on the back rib. This contacts the bottom of the mag well when you slam it home. I'm thinking this is to avoid the feed lips being slammed into the bottom of the bolt carrier causing damage and/or to save the mag catch from impact if the bolt is locked back and you slam the mag home... So personally I'll take either/or, but won't pay much of a premium for G3 over G2. As to you're item #4... AMMO. Lot's of ammo. There are very few "sub-par" parts manufacturers. Before you purchase any item based on name recognition, reviews or etc- ask yourself, "am I really going to take advantage of whatever feature "X" product is offering?". I've heard salt bath tests referenced as though it's a must have thing in a finish, and I'm in Montana. Get an AR, then lots of ammo. When you have enough ammo, shoot it all up in practice. Then kick yourself for not purchasing twice the amount you thought you needed and replace with an equal or greater stash. THEN start tricking out your current AR or looking for your second one. (Which you really must have a minimum of 2, so get buying)
HTH Sly This is a very helpful detailed post and thank you for that. I was planning on a co-witness setup vs the 45 degree offset. Also I didn't think that the shorter gas system could cause more wear and tear on the parts of the rifle. I wish ammo wasn't so expensive but I do plan to practice my marksmanship whenever possible. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
4. Is there anything else I need to know before picking the parts I want or anything you wish you knew before putting together your first AR? Thanks to all in advance for your constructive help! 4- Buy the highest quality BCG, these are the parts that fail. How will it be used? Figure out what type of shooting you enjoy or will be able to do and then build your AR(and optic) based on that. If your ok with not having the "latest and greatest" accessories you can build an AR using last months "latest and greatest" products for a lot cheaper by buying in the EE. For example, everyone wants a aimpoint T1, cost $600+, you can buy a like-new comp M2 with mount for $300 in the EE. I was unaware the bcg was a weak link. Is there one you would recommend? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
4. Is there anything else I need to know before picking the parts I want or anything you wish you knew before putting together your first AR? Thanks to all in advance for your constructive help! 4- Buy the highest quality BCG, these are the parts that fail. How will it be used? Figure out what type of shooting you enjoy or will be able to do and then build your AR(and optic) based on that. If your ok with not having the "latest and greatest" accessories you can build an AR using last months "latest and greatest" products for a lot cheaper by buying in the EE. For example, everyone wants a aimpoint T1, cost $600+, you can buy a like-new comp M2 with mount for $300 in the EE. I was unaware the bcg was a weak link. Is there one you would recommend? The BCG is the "heart" of the rifle. I've only recently heard of some bad pills concerning BCGs due to the overwhelming demand. Stick to the "ABC" manufacturers or boutique types that have a known reputation for quality and stand behind their products. Sly |
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This is a very helpful detailed post and thank you for that. I was planning on a co-witness setup vs the 45 degree offset. Also I didn't think that the shorter gas system could cause more wear and tear on the parts of the rifle. I wish ammo wasn't so expensive but I do plan to practice my marksmanship whenever possible.
An absolute co-witness has its appeal which is what my Aimpoint in a Larue M68 mount with the KAC buis affords me... But, but... I'm still considering 45 degree offset, I just don't know why!
Sly |
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