AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/4/2024 12:39:00 PM EDT
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Hello all! First time posting. I am what you call, a newbie. Both on this forum and when it comes to AR-15s. Forgive me, I know these kinds of questions are a dime a dozen, but I'm having some serious difficulty choosing which rifle and would really appreciate the opinions and thoughts of people with infinitely more experience than myself. I am on the market for my first AR-15 and my last. This is going to be my one and only rifle that I'll buy and will keep it for life. I'm not an enthusiast or collector and do not intend on becoming one, therefore this will be it. I want the rifle primarily for self-defense and/or a SHTF scenario. I'm willing to put a fair amount of coin into it since it is for a serious purpose and will be my only one. But, at the same time I don't want to just throw my money away if the quality difference between the two are virtually zero. It's my understanding that BCM is great but LWRC is basically god tier. True? I'm looking at the LWRC ICDIR5B16ML and the BCM M4 CARBINE MOD 0. I found the LWRC on palmettostatearmory.com ($1,723.99) and the BCM on midwayusa.com. ($1,202.40, after 10% off). As you can see, there is one heck of a price difference. My main concern is by far QC, durability, longevity, and overall reliability. Although I have heard mostly good things about BCM, some people also say that their QC is not nearly as good anymore and even that you're just paying for the brand and not actual quality. On the other hand, I've pretty much heard nothing but good about LWRC and seems to typically be thought of as almost as good as KAC, but way less expensive. Which is why I'm leaning towards the LWRC and a bit hesitant to buy the BCM. Is the LWRC really that much better quality and more reliable than the BCM? Like, $500 plus more quality and reliability? Thank you everybody! |
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Welcome fellow member. Your one and only Ar-15 rifle? - good luck with that. God-Tier is in the hands of the shooter. Is LWRC a quality product? Yes, yes it is. Are there other AR-15s that are just as good for a lower price, IMO, yes there are. Consider buying a good quality lower and then spend your cash on different uppers. |
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Welcome to the forum. Since no one has responded yet, I'll give it a shot. Although I have no experience with LWRC, I don't know that I'd characterize them as "god tier". Honestly, if I were getting a rifle from a mfg. that started with "L" I'd get an LMT, having owned several. Probably my favorite AR. I do own a couple of BCM's as well, and think for your purposes they would be more than adequate. In my experience they make a solid, well made and dependable rifle. Maybe take the $$ you save with BCM, upgrade the trigger (either a Geissele or a LaRue) and get a red dot (Aimpoint or Eotech if you can afford it or Holosun if you want to save money). If you were a little more experienced, or good at DIY I'd also suggest looking at a Daniel Defense upper - they can be had w/o a BCG or charging handle from Brownells. Then build your own lower. With some patience you can find a blemished Aeroprecision stripped lower for under $70. Add a Geissele or LaRue trigger, a generic lower parts kit, and the stock buffer and buffer spring of your choice. If you buy stuff on sale will end up costing about what a BCM rifle will cost, but spec'd with parts of your choice. |
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Building a lower is a simple and enjoyable task for just about anybody with opposable thumbs. My son could assemble a lower in 15 minutes with a Bic lighter, pliers, electrical tape, and a couple of screwdrivers. Assembling an upper is more complex as you need a vice, torque wrench, a clamshell Receiver block, and other tools. ARFCOM has a forum on how to build it yourself here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Build-It-Yourself/4/ |
| In general, I prefer BCM, but not in this case. The handguard on that BCM uses Key Mod on the sides and nothing on top. Key Mod which is basically a dead end and losing favor. That LWRC uses a Picatinny rail across the entire top, upper receiver and handguard, and M-LOK on the handguard sides. That's a more popular arrangement than what's on that BCM. There are other BCM rifles I would buy instead of that LWRC, but you didn't ask that question. |
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Quoted: Building a lower is a simple and enjoyable task for just about anybody with opposable thumbs. My son could assemble a lower in 15 minutes with a Bic lighter, pliers, electrical tape, and a couple of screwdrivers. Assembling an upper is more complex as you need a vice, torque wrench, a clamshell Receiver block, and other tools. ARFCOM has a forum on how to build it yourself here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Build-It-Yourself/4/ Both the BCM and LWRC rifles will be reliable, accurate, highly capable weapons. I would have zero concerns trusting my life to either of those tools. |
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My .02 worth would be a PSA M4 and start there. You will learn what you like and don't (it's a hands on thing). With so many options it can be confusing to choose a one and done rifle. Plus, when you do decide to upgrade to something which better suits your taste, the old trusty M4 will always be your friend. Just my 2 cents worth and welcome to ARF. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the thoughts. Would you say putting together an AR 15 would be a reasonable task for someone with no AR 15 building experience? Or is it a pretty big undertaking? To do it right you'd need a set of specialized tools, or have a gunsmith do the work for you. In your situation I wouldn't bother, just buy a quality gun and don't look back. Even something like the new Smith & Wesson Sport III (not I or II) would work just fine for you. Take the money you'd save and spend it on training, light, optic, and ammo. Be careful who you take advice from here, enthusiasts are always trying to bring more people into the fold. |
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Quoted: In general, I prefer BCM, but not in this case. The handguard on that BCM uses Key Mod on the sides and nothing on top. Key Mod which is basically a dead end and losing favor. That LWRC uses a Picatinny rail across the entire top, upper receiver and handguard, and M-LOK on the handguard sides. That's a more popular arrangement than what's on that BCM. There are other BCM rifles I would buy instead of that LWRC, but you didn't ask that question. Gotchya. Yeah, I have been reading that M-LOK generally seems to be preferred. Ok, I'll bite. What BCM rifle would you prefer over that LWRC? Would it be the Recce 16 by chance? |
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For the price of the LWRC, I’d get a Geissele Super Duty at the next sale… Memorial or Independence Day. I’ve been a Geissele fan since well before Bill started losing customers. Otherwise, the BCM is a great gun at that price . BCM is my go-to for most of my general build parts… stripped uppers, hand guards and furniture. |
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Welcome to the forum! Don't get too hung up on brands. There's certainly entry level stuff and gucci stuff but they're not all guaranteed to be indestructible. I think you're falling into the same trap all of us do thinking that this will be your only AR15 but if that's the case and it's a one and done rifle then if I had to sell all of my ARs and keep only one, my decision would be extremely easy. Daniel Defense BLOCK II SOCOM Upper 14.5 P&W Surefire 3 prong/4 prong/SFMB with a Daniel Defense BCG. Put it on any milspec lower you want. They go on sale at brownells all the time, https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/rifle-parts/rifle-receivers-parts/m4a1-stripped-socom-upper-receiver-14.5in-5.56/?sku=100040692 Tried and true manufacturer of military issued barrels and rail systems and Battlefield Vegas claims that the DD BCG handles the most rounds of any other BCG that they've used. I love my Geisseles, LMTs (no longer own), Colts, FNs but my DD SOCOM Upper is by far my favorite. |
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Quoted: LWRC is high quality, but I don't think I'd call them "God tier". BCM makes as good product for the price. As others have suggested there are a lot of options in that price range. I'd take a good look at Daniel Defense. Colt is mid at best these days. I have a 21 6920 and it's one of my better ARs but I agree that I'd take a DD M4 over it. |
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Quoted: Gotchya. Yeah, I have been reading that M-LOK generally seems to be preferred. Ok, I'll bite. What BCM rifle would you prefer over that LWRC? Would it be the Recce 16 by chance? Yes, I'd buy a BMC Recce 16 over the two guns in the first post, it's good to go as is. The BMC PNT trigger is just as good as an ALG ACT, a very smooth single stage trigger. After a couple years' experience, you could consider something like a Geissele SSA-E trigger if you wanted to move on to a two-stage trigger. |
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Quoted: Yes, I'd buy a BMC Recce 16 over the two guns in the first post, it's good to go as is. The BMC PNT trigger is just as good as an ALG ACT, a very smooth single stage trigger. After a couple years' experience, you could consider something like a Geissele SSA-E trigger if you wanted to move on to a two-stage trigger. I might consider that gun, but I cannot find it in stock anywhere. |
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To follow up on my suggestion that you think about building your own lower - I consider myself pretty inept when it comes to building/putting together pretty much anything. But I've probably put together 6-7 lowers over the years, all of which have run without issue. Yes, you will probably send a detent pin flying a couple of times. And there are a couple of steps that can be a bit of a PITA. But with even the most rudimentary set of tools and a little patience, it's not only doable, but will help you understand how your AR is put together. And although it can sometimes be hard to know what you want when you're just starting out, one of the great things about AR's is the degree to which they are customizable. Of course, I also shoot lefty, so the ability to set things up so that they are ambidextrous/lefty friendly is a big plus. Still I think even if you are a righty dropping in a quality trigger is a worthwhile upgrade. Same with ambi. safeties and charging handles. And I agree with at least one other posters, buying a Daniel Defense upper from Brownells is one of the best deals going right now ... particularly if you wait until they are on sale and can combine it with a discount code. I've picked at least one up for under $700. You can then add the charging handle of your choice and a Toolcraft or Microbest BCG (which you can also find on sale if you look around) and you're going to have a solid upper with a barrel that will last you 10,000 plus rounds. If this will be your only rifle/upper I'd go with a 14.5" barrel and then pin and weld a flash hider to get you to 16". This will be the best compromise between velocity/distance and maneuverability. And once you're at 16" you don't have to worry about the NFA or deal with the whole pistol brace uncertainty. Of course, the simplest and easiest approach is to just buy a BCM rifle. Or, as another poster has pointed out, a couple of times a year Geissele sells blemished rifles at extremely competitive prices. So that might also be a good value proposition, particularly since they will come with a Geissele trigger (which is probably the best after-market trigger for an AR). Bottom line, you have a lot of potential choices, all of which will yield you a solid rifle that you can depend on. |
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Quoted: I might consider that gun, but I cannot find it in stock anywhere. A couple alternatives... Buy the BCM M4 CARBINE MOD 0 and just live with the Key Mod rail or change out the rail to a M-LOK rail. Buy a complete upper only from BCM, many variations are in stock at the moment, and buy a complete BCM lower when one becomes available. When I bought mine the only BCM upper available had no rail, I added a Geissele M-LOK rail later. I bought the complete BCM lower from a local dealer that had it in stock. A Picatinny quad-rail works very well too, and this is in stock. https://www.primaryarms.com/bcm-mid-16-mod-2-16in-mid-length-ar-15-rifle-quad-rail Troy Industries is excellent too: https://www.primaryarms.com/troy-industries-5-56-nato-m4a4-w-gen-2-socc-rail-16in |
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My main concern is by far QC, durability, longevity, and overall reliability. LWRC doesn't offer anything over BCM in regard to the above concerns. BCM's website sales are geared toward buying a complete upper and a complete lower since there are so many combinations that offering them each as complete rifles is more trouble than it seems to be worth. Buying the upper and lower separately also saves money on the 11% federal excise tax on firearms. I absolutely would not recommend building anything in your position. However, putting a complete upper on a complete lower is just popping the two takedown pins that you would for normal cleaning of the rifle, so that isn't too complicated for a new rifle owner. |
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Quoted: LWRC doesn't offer anything over BCM in regard to the above concerns. BCM's website sales are geared toward buying a complete upper and a complete lower since there are so many combinations that offering them each as complete rifles is more trouble than it seems to be worth. Buying the upper and lower separately also saves money on the 11% federal excise tax on firearms. I absolutely would not recommend building anything in your position. However, putting a complete upper on a complete lower is just popping the two takedown pins that you would for normal cleaning of the rifle, so that isn't too complicated for a new rifle owner. Agree 100% |
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I have lots of LWRC and BCM product. In fact I have a LWRC with custom serial number, factory SBR. The old guys from the original company were great (Darren and Jesse) but they moved on and the company is now run by a large number of ass hats who I would not piss on if they were on fire. They are corporate sleaze is not interested in a filthy consumerike you. For instance... I talked to a number of the new corporate guys at the NRA show. LWRC has changed hands, been renamed and restructured and simply is not the same company it was before. I examined I understood this already (and I probably known more about the company history than any of them). I explained that I bought my LWRC with a LIFETIME warranty. That even though the company changed names and had a brw warranty policy, the old execs told me I could get warranty work or pay for an upgrade to my piston system no problem. I explained I knew that there was no requirement for them to honor a thing then or now... however, I had a failure of the ORIGINAL piston system with a dovetail key strike area and I wanted to upgrade to their one piece tombstone system, which meant a new carrier, piston, etc. I explained I knew this could be retrofitted because I discussed with VP Jesse, who moved on as product developer for Aero Precision. I explained I was willing to pay for any work or parts necessary, would pay for parts and I stall myself, or would certain take a thing they would give under warranty or LE discount but I wanted to retrofit because I had a one of a kind LWRC M6 Commando and wanted to keep as many of the parts the same as the original since it was my rookie LE patrol rifle, it had sentimental value, etc. The LWRC guys basically told me to pound sand and my only option was to buy a whole new rifle AR retail. That I could buy a new upper bur it would have no warranty, etc. Because they had no legal obligation. I explained I knew they had no obligation but when gun companies buy out other companies, they often help old customers just because they are great companies... for example, my buddy had a custom straight pull bolt receiver for a 10-22 he bought from a company. Volquartsen bought out that company and all the rights and design to make their own straight pull bolt guns built off those same receivers. My buddy had an accuracy issue with his gun made by the old company, which Volkquartsen had ZERO responsibility to do anything about. They said they would check it out and fix it and contact him with a bill since only they worked with those receives anymore. He sent it in and Volquartsen found the receiver was out of spec, replaced it free of charge, and shipped it back to him. I told them it was a similar situation and I was 100% wiling to pay whatever to upgrade the upper. They told me they would not do anything for me because "they don't have to" and "it's a different company" and all that same crap and told me if I was lucky I could "maybe" buy at retail a new upper... but buying a short barrel piston that works with my old rifle might be an issue as those are only sold on factory SBRs and they were unwilling to accept my SBR shipped from out of state. So you know what? F- those guys and their overpriced rifles. BCM on the other hand is a great product. Their uppers are thermal fit and my top forged forward assist uppers for builds, their entire product line is full milspec at a minimum. They have really great product ideas and design. I would personally consider Daniel Defense to be above BCM by a tiny but in some areas a bit, but I only buy DD barrels for builds due to everything else being too much money... though I also have bought rails, uppers, etc. My advice? Buy a BCM. Buy a DD if you have extra cash burning a hole in your pocket. Don't buy LWRC. They could care less about the peon consumers like you and me. If you want Gucci, also consider Q or KAC, etc. Just not LWRC. |
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I love my LWRC rifle so I am biased. But just an FYI, the rifle can be had much cheaper than the link you provided. $1378 here after you email for price |
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Quoted: I have lots of LWRC and BCM product. In fact I have a LWRC with custom serial number, factory SBR. The old guys from the original company were great (Darren and Jesse) but they moved on and the company is now run by a large number of ass hats who I would not piss on if they were on fire. They are corporate sleaze is not interested in a filthy consumerike you. For instance... I talked to a number of the new corporate guys at the NRA show. LWRC has changed hands, been renamed and restructured and simply is not the same company it was before. I examined I understood this already (and I probably known more about the company history than any of them). I explained that I bought my LWRC with a LIFETIME warranty. That even though the company changed names and had a brw warranty policy, the old execs told me I could get warranty work or pay for an upgrade to my piston system no problem. I explained I knew that there was no requirement for them to honor a thing then or now... however, I had a failure of the ORIGINAL piston system with a dovetail key strike area and I wanted to upgrade to their one piece tombstone system, which meant a new carrier, piston, etc. I explained I knew this could be retrofitted because I discussed with VP Jesse, who moved on as product developer for Aero Precision. I explained I was willing to pay for any work or parts necessary, would pay for parts and I stall myself, or would certain take a thing they would give under warranty or LE discount but I wanted to retrofit because I had a one of a kind LWRC M6 Commando and wanted to keep as many of the parts the same as the original since it was my rookie LE patrol rifle, it had sentimental value, etc. The LWRC guys basically told me to pound sand and my only option was to buy a whole new rifle AR retail. That I could buy a new upper bur it would have no warranty, etc. Because they had no legal obligation. I explained I knew they had no obligation bu5 when gun companies buy out other companies, they often help old customers just because they are great companies... for example, my buddy had a custom straight pull bolt receiver for a 10-22 and Volquartsen bought out that company to make their own straight pull receivers built off their specs. My buddy had an accuracy issue with his gun, which Volkquartsen had ZERO responsibility to do anything about. They said they would check it out and fix it and contact him with a bill. He sent it in and they found the receiver was out of spec, replaced it free of charge and shipped it back to him. I told them it was a similar situation and I was 100% wiling to pay whatever to upgrade the upper. They told me they would not do anything for me because "they don't have to" and "it's a different company" and all three same crap and told me if I was lucky I wcould "maybe" get a new upper but buying a short barrel upper might be an issue. So you know what? F- those guys and their overpriced rifles. BCM on the other hand is a great product. Their uppers are thermal fit and my top forged forward assist upper for builds, their entire product line is full milspec at minimum. They have really great product ideas and design. I would personally consider Daniel Defense to be above BCM by a bit, but I only buy DD barrels for builds due to everything else being too much money... though I also have bought rails, uppers, etc. My advice? Buy a BCM. Buy a DD if you have a ton of extra cash burning a hole in your pocket. Don't buy LWRC. They could care less about the peon consumers. If you want Gucci, also consider Q or KAC, etc. Just not LWRC. This is interesting because I actually had the opposite experience with LWRC. I had my barrel break loose from the barrel extension and called them about it, to which they said I would have to send it in for warranty work. I explained that I lived close enough to drive to their shop in Cambridge Maryland and they said "drive down, park around back, and give us a call when you get here." They rebarrelled the gun for me while letting me tour their facility and play with some of the stuff in there. They didn't have to let me drive to their shop and get the work done but they did and that really carried a lot of weight with me. But as you can see, everybody's experiences can be different |
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Quoted: LWRC doesn't offer anything over BCM in regard to the above concerns. BCM's website sales are geared toward buying a complete upper and a complete lower since there are so many combinations that offering them each as complete rifles is more trouble than it seems to be worth. Buying the upper and lower separately also saves money on the 11% federal excise tax on firearms. I absolutely would not recommend building anything in your position. However, putting a complete upper on a complete lower is just popping the two takedown pins that you would for normal cleaning of the rifle, so that isn't too complicated for a new rifle owner. I must be looking in the wrong spot because I'm having a hard time finding complete lowers on BCMs website. Do you see any? That was another question I had, how does the 11% federal excise tax work exactly? I mean does it come out during the sale or is it something you have to pay at the end of the year? |
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Quoted: I love my LWRC rifle so I am biased. But just an FYI, the rifle can be had much cheaper than the link you provided. $1378 here after you email for price Wow! How can they sell it for so cheap? Is this a legit well known site? |
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Quoted: I must be looking in the wrong spot because I'm having a hard time finding complete lowers on BCMs website. Do you see any? That was another question I had, how does the 11% federal excise tax work exactly? I mean does it come out during the sale or is it something you have to pay at the end of the year? Quoted: Quoted: LWRC doesn't offer anything over BCM in regard to the above concerns. BCM's website sales are geared toward buying a complete upper and a complete lower since there are so many combinations that offering them each as complete rifles is more trouble than it seems to be worth. Buying the upper and lower separately also saves money on the 11% federal excise tax on firearms. I absolutely would not recommend building anything in your position. However, putting a complete upper on a complete lower is just popping the two takedown pins that you would for normal cleaning of the rifle, so that isn't too complicated for a new rifle owner. I must be looking in the wrong spot because I'm having a hard time finding complete lowers on BCMs website. Do you see any? That was another question I had, how does the 11% federal excise tax work exactly? I mean does it come out during the sale or is it something you have to pay at the end of the year? You "pay" the tax as it's baked into the cost of the firearm. A full rifle isn't always more expensive than the parts found either, all comes down to what sales you find and where you're buying it from. |
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Wear and tear is inevitable. I would never run a gun as my primary that takes non standardized parts. Imagine theres a ban on new production and 7 years down the road the rail on the LWRC breaks. I wouldn’t consider LWRC anywhere near “god tier”. That’s more KAC, Geissele, LMT MRP stuff. I also hate fluted barrels. Attached File LWRC isn’t even remotely bad, but I think the BCM is the better buy. |
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Quoted: My advice? Buy a BCM. Buy a DD if you have extra cash burning a hole in your pocket. Don't buy LWRC. They could care less about the peon consumers like you and me. If you want Gucci, also consider Q or KAC, etc. Just not LWRC. Damn. Ok, that definitely gives me second thoughts about LWRC. If that's their attitude towards their customers, then who knows if their quality is anything like it used to be. That's too bad. Thanks for the input. |
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Does everyone here agree that LMT is of higher quality than LWRC and BCM? Would this be a decent LMT rifle? https://www.primaryarms.com/lmt-defender-l-5-56-ar-15-rifle-30-round-16in How would you all say it compares to a DDM4v7? |
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I guess I'm always perplexed that new owners are fixated on "tiers." I think you're too fixed on the following: 1) Brands 2) If it has all the configuration you like. The benefit of the LWRC is that you get a fully ambi lower that can be fitted with any upper out there. However, the disadvantage you have is that the upper is proprietary in some ways, if I'm not mistaken because the upper is one piece so changing barrels or adding a rail option will be much more difficult. The BCM is your standard rifle. It's right handed only but you get a pretty standard AR15 upper and lower that you can swap out to your fancy in terms of barrel changing or adding a different handguard. Both will last you an equal amount of time in terms of being your "one and only" assuming you don't ever want to mess with it and you keep it as factory as possible. Of course this depends on how much you shoot and how hot you get the gun but bot For new owners, the most likely things you'll change out are triggers, handguards, and stock. Most uppers will accept standard optics and mounts so that's not a super huge factor in terms of choices as they are all pretty much the same length and height. |
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Quoted: Does everyone here agree that LMT is of higher quality than LWRC and BCM? Would this be a decent LMT rifle? https://www.primaryarms.com/lmt-defender-l-5-56-ar-15-rifle-30-round-16in How would you all say it compares to a DDM4v7? BTW, Primary Arms routinely has 10% off sales, one just ended a couple days ago. If you’re not in a hurry wait for a sale. If you just want to get it over with just buy it. LMT is excellent and combat proven manufacturer. I would not hesitate to buy it if that’s in your budget. DD is also excellent. I’m not a fan of their styling so I never bought one. I will disagree with the idea there aren’t tiers or tiers aren’t important. There is junk, good, better and best. I’m firmly in the better camp, though an LMT 308 has got my attention. You’d be better served spending money on training and ammo than a top tier gun you don’t know how to shoot well. There’s really nothing wrong with a Colt 6920 for most people. From the sounds of what you want to use this for a 6920 would be fine for you too. |
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I own, or have owned, AR's from LMT, DD and BCM. All are very solid and well made rifles, and all would serve you well as a general purpose/SHTF/home defense rifle. Based on my personal experience I would say LMT is slightly "better" than DD, which is slightly "better" than BCM. But with even minimal maintenance all will be reliable and durable guns that will last you many years unless you are a pretty high volume shooter. One thing I would advise you when budgeting for this gun is to leave some extra cash. You will want at minimum of 3-4 30 round mags (although I know lots of people who have way more than that because they are concerned about future bans). I would also strongly suggest you get some kind of optic. A red dot is ideal if most of your shooting will be 100 yards and in. An LPVO or a red dot with a magnifier would be better if you plan to shoot further on a regular basis. And ammo - you're going to want to get lots and lots of ammo. |
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Quoted: BTW, Primary Arms routinely has 10% off sales, one just ended a couple days ago. If you’re not in a hurry wait for a sale. If you just want to get it over with just buy it. LMT is excellent and combat proven manufacturer. I would not hesitate to buy it if that’s in your budget. DD is also excellent. I’m not a fan of their styling so I never bought one. I will disagree with the idea there aren’t tiers or tiers aren’t important. There is junk, good, better and best. I’m firmly in the better camp, though an LMT 308 has got my attention. You’d be better served spending money on training and ammo than a top tier gun you don’t know how to shoot well. There’s really nothing wrong with a Colt 6920 for most people. From the sounds of what you want to use this for a 6920 would be fine for you too. I've considered the Colt 6920, but I have consistently been reading that they are a shell of what they used to be in terms of quality, at least for the civilian market. So, I'd be hesitant to spend $1,000+ when I can spend $200 more and go with BCM who seems to have a much better rep. |
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Quoted: I own, or have owned, AR's from LMT, DD and BCM. All are very solid and well made rifles, and all would serve you well as a general purpose/SHTF/home defense rifle. Based on my personal experience I would say LMT is slightly "better" than DD, which is slightly "better" than BCM. But with even minimal maintenance all will be reliable and durable guns that will last you many years unless you are a pretty high volume shooter. One thing I would advise you when budgeting for this gun is to leave some extra cash. You will want at minimum of 3-4 30 round mags (although I know lots of people who have way more than that because they are concerned about future bans). I would also strongly suggest you get some kind of optic. A red dot is ideal if most of your shooting will be 100 yards and in. An LPVO or a red dot with a magnifier would be better if you plan to shoot further on a regular basis. And ammo - you're going to want to get lots and lots of ammo. Would the red dot work fine for a rifle with a front sight like the BCM M4 Mod 0? |
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Would a handguard like what's on the BCM M4 Mod 0 work well with a flashlight? Most people here seem to still think BCM is still great, so I'm considering going with the BCM. But my two concerns are the lack of M-LOK and the lack of a cold hammer forged barrel. Theoretically, the M-LOK shouldn't matter if it will allow me to attach a flashlight without an issue. But does the Cold hammer forged barrel really make it that much more durable than the barrel on the BCM Mod 0? At this point, if the BCM recce 16 was available with a 10% discount like it was on Midwestusa, I'd probably go with that, but I can't find it in stock anywhere. One more concern with the BCM mod 0, will that kind of front sight hinder the use of a red dot optic? |
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Quoted: Would the red dot work fine for a rifle with a front sight like the BCM M4 Mod 0? Yes, but the front sight will be in your field of view. While the Mod 0 is functional, it doesn't sound like it's optimal for what you're looking for. If you don't mind waiting a few weeks, Sionics is an excellent value: https://sionicsweaponsystems.com/lawenforcement/sionics-patrol-rifle-three/ Sionics has the same commitment to quality components as BCM, but Sionics rifles are better gassed and more accurate in my experience. |
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To further your answer about red dots - first a quick tutorial. Red dots generally come with a choice of two different mounts. The lower mount will basically put your dot at the tip of the front sight. The higher mount will put the dot above your front sight. In other words, the front sight will still be visible when looking through the red dot but will be about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. For many people this is an ideal set up as it allows you run a red dot, see most of your target without it being obscured by the front sight, and also enables you to install a flip up rear sight and quickly convert to irons if your red dot fails. I have one rifle that's set up this way and it works fine. However, personally, and it is a personal preference, I think having a fold down front sight or no front sight just gives me a cleaner sight picture, is a hair faster on target and is less distracting. Again, I suspect there will be a diversity of opinion on this. Oh, and on the relative advantages of cold hammer forged barrels - that is one of the reasons people like DD, and they do make a great barrel. I believe cold hammer forged barrels have the reputation of holding up to the heat that rapid fire shooting/mag dumps can produce and of generally giving you longer barrel life. However, I believe BCM also offers a couple of uppers with cold hammer forged barrels. And I think there has been some debate about whether a cold hammer forged barrel is really worth the premium in price they command. Given decent maintenance, brass cased ammo and a reasonable firing schedule a regular BCM barrel should give you at least 10,000 rounds before you would need to think about replacing it, and significantly more if you can tolerate a minor deterioration in accuracy. |
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Quoted: To further your answer about red dots - first a quick tutorial. Red dots generally come with a choice of two different mounts. The lower mount will basically put your dot at the tip of the front sight. The higher mount will put the dot above your front sight. In other words, the front sight will still be visible when looking through the red dot but will be about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. For many people this is an ideal set up as it allows you run a red dot, see most of your target without it being obscured by the front sight, and also enables you to install a flip up rear sight and quickly convert to irons if your red dot fails. I have one rifle that's set up this way and it works fine. However, personally, and it is a personal preference, I think having a fold down front sight or no front sight just gives me a cleaner sight picture, is a hair faster on target and is less distracting. Again, I suspect there will be a diversity of opinion on this. Oh, and on the relative advantages of cold hammer forged barrels - that is one of the reasons people like DD, and they do make a great barrel. I believe cold hammer forged barrels have the reputation of holding up to the heat that rapid fire shooting/mag dumps can produce and of generally giving you longer barrel life. However, I believe BCM also offers a couple of uppers with cold hammer forged barrels. And I think there has been some debate about whether a cold hammer forged barrel is really worth the premium in price they command. Given decent maintenance, brass cased ammo and a reasonable firing schedule a regular BCM barrel should give you at least 10,000 rounds before you would need to think about replacing it, and significantly more if you can tolerate a minor deterioration in accuracy. Good info. Thanks. |
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Here's a BCM Recce 16 for sale from a legit seller for $1681 (quad rail). You could change the quad rail to an M-LOK rail if you decide you hate the quad rail. https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/bravo-company-mod-0-223-rem-new?p=1159807 It's labelled .223 at this site but it's also 5.56x45 which is what you want. Some used BCM rifles are available here: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/bcm-rifles.c1649_p1_o6.cfm Also, on the unmentionable big auction site search for bcm recce 16 and some will pop up. |
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The other thing I was considering, which a couple of people here have mentioned. Is to get a BCM complete recce upper. Then getting a complete Areo Precision lower. But, I just don't trust Areo Precision to the degree that I trust BCM so I'm hesitant. Also, would their be any potential compatibility issues between the two? I'm guessing that lowers probably last longer than uppers because they don't see near the amount of wear, right? Would an Areo Precision lower last roughly the same as a BCM lower? What about the warranties? Do they typically still honor the same warranty even if not purchasing the complete rifle? Something like these: https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-standard-16-mid-length-enhanced-light-weight-upper-receiver-group-w-bcm-mcmr-15-handguard/ https://www.primaryarms.com/aero-precision-ar15-standard-complete-lower-receiver Also to clarify, would I literally be able to just snap these together and be done with it or would I still need additional parts? Would this likely be higher end than the BCM M4 Mod 0 rifle? BTW, i really appreciate everyones responses, you've all been very helpful. |
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Quoted: Here's a BCM Recce 16 for sale from a legit seller for $1681 (quad rail). You could change the quad rail to an M-LOK rail if you decide you hate the quad rail. https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/bravo-company-mod-0-223-rem-new?p=1159807 It's labelled .223 at this site but it's also 5.56x45 which is what you want. Some used BCM rifles are available here: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/bcm-rifles.c1649_p1_o6.cfm Also, on the unmentionable big auction site search for bcm recce 16 and some will pop up. Nice, thanks. Do you think that the quad rail would be fine for the purpose of having a red dot and attaching a flashlight? |
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I was looking at the Recce 16 and M4 Mod 0 side by side on the BCM website Recce 16 https://bravocompanymfg.com/bcm-recce16-mcmr.html M4 Carbine Mod 0 https://bravocompanymfg.com/bcm-m4-carbine-mod0.html I see three differences: -Recce 16 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Extension and Mod 0 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension. -Recce 16 has a Mid Length Gas System and Mod 0 has a Standard Carbine Gas System -Recce 16 has MCMR handguard and Mod 0 has a polymer handguard Theoretically, couldn't I just get the M-LOK handguard for the Mod 0 and wouldn't it be basically the same gun? What difference would these other two things really make? -Recce 16 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Extension and Mod 0 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension. -Recce 16 has a Mid Length Gas System and Mod 0 has a Standard Carbine Gas System Now that I look at it, the only difference on this is the word barrel was omitted for the Recce 16, is that even different or did BCM jut forget to put the word barrel? Lol, it might be a stupid question, but does that mean anything? -Recce 16 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Extension and Mod 0 is 16" Standard Government Profile Barrel 1/7 Twist, M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension. |
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Quoted: Nice, thanks. Do you think that the quad rail would be fine for the purpose of having a red dot and attaching a flashlight? Absolutely. There are many red dot and light options that work with quad rails. I run an AimPoint PRO red dot and a REIN 2.0 (REIN 3.0 is the new hotness from Cloud Defensive) light on my Geissele rail. The Geissele has a Picatinny rail on top, M-LOK on the left, right, and bottom. It also has enough Pic rail at the front of the left and right for a light. The tape switch also sits on the top side Pic rail. A simple red dot is fine for in close, say, up to 100 yards. For more distance I like a 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO (low power variable optic). |
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