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Posted: 3/29/2017 11:31:39 PM EDT
[#1]
"As Good as " .. in what sense ? ( no offense intended )
Accuracy ? .. honestly, that is your barrels decision.... barrels are fussy... So try some of both. Most My rifles prefer the Creedmoor 77gr SMK. As for bullet performance in ballistic gel... they both use the same bullet, so it will overall perform the same. Cost wise... I am pretty sure IMI wins that arena. |
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Posted: 3/29/2017 11:48:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Good point, I will have to try some of the various 77gr OTM rounds and see what my barrels like the best.
In terms of "as good as" I guess I was referring to accuracy and and quality of the ammo. Yes, the barrel will play a part but in general if the Razor Core is close enough to the Mk262 that it is a wash and we are talking about slight differences in barrels making a difference, I would call that a wash. Also the consistency of velocity and SD of the ammo would play a part in the "as good as." I haven't heard any major negatives about the 77gr Razor Core, so at that point it seems it is on par with the Mk262. Unless there is a reason not to consider it? |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 12:07:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point, I will have to try some of the various 77gr OTM rounds and see what my barrels like the best. In terms of "as good as" I guess I was referring to accuracy and and quality of the ammo. Yes, the barrel will play a part but in general if the Razor Core is close enough to the Mk262 that it is a wash and we are talking about slight differences in barrels making a difference, I would call that a wash. Also the consistency of velocity and SD of the ammo would play a part in the "as good as." I haven't heard any major negatives about the 77gr Razor Core, so at that point it seems it is on par with the Mk262. Unless there is a reason not to consider it? Razor Core is nearly the exact same thing as MK262. Terminal performance (effect on living targets) will be the same as they both use use the same bullet and are loaded to apparently almost equal velocities. Razor Core might be manufactured to slightly less stringent standards than MK262, meaning you might not get the exact same accuracy but honestly I bet most shooters wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Yes, Razor Core should be very consistent in its performance and I would trust it to reliably function. Razor Core certainly wins in cost as well. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 8:58:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Short answer, yes.
Concur with bfoosh06, get both, shoot whichever one is better. I've got both for my SPR, but I've only shot Razor Core so far. Since it's giving me sub-MOA accuracy, I'm not in a rush to compare. I'm pretty satisfied thus far. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 10:07:46 AM EDT
[#5]
CBC 77gr shoots better in both of my rifles than the imi. One 18" Douglas SS barrel, and a 10.5fn chf cl.
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Posted: 3/30/2017 10:32:14 AM EDT
[#6]
IMI Razor Core, when I was evaluating which flavor of 262 to stack deep a couple of years back, ran hot & had a much higher SD than BH or CBC. It also shot .25 - .50 MOA looser than BH or CBC through my rigs due to that higher standard deviation. IMI may have tweaked their recipe since then but I would lean towards CBC as it was very comparable in performance to BH.
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Posted: 3/30/2017 10:36:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CBC 77gr shoots better in both of my rifles than the imi. One 18" Douglas SS barrel, and a 10.5fn chf cl. CBC 77gr OTM has been 1 of the 2 most accurate 77gr 5.56 ammo I've tried. It has about the same accuracy potential as the BH 77gr OTM, yet it cost almost half the price, at $0.60/rd. I've also tried Creedmoor 77gr OTM, IMI 77gr Razor, and BH 77gr TMK, and none have performed as good as CBC OTM and BH OTM. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 11:10:41 AM EDT
[#8]
Tranzformer...this might help you weed out the slower 77gr "match" loads...based on its velocity.... or at the very least give you an idea of bullet drop.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/676005_Various-Chronograph-results----16-Middie-and-20-Rifle-.html I also suggest you try some of the linked ammo... 69gr TMK ( better terminal performance ) ... BC slightly higher then the 77gr SMK, and it is launched faster... pretty much a win, win, win... as long as your barrel likes them. Reasonable price. https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/2587/-Rifle-Ammunition |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 2:54:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Thank you guys for all the comments. Probably get a few boxes of each and see what my Ballistic Advantage and Faxon barrels likes the best. I will definitely check out the CBC/Magtech version as well, however I haven't been lucky enough to find any in stock through use of Ammoseek.
Part of the reason I started the thread was I remember the thread on here from last summer talking about some issues with the IMI Razor Core. Some of the later posts in that thread seemed to make it sound that the IMI Razor Core was still GTG and that it was just a small batch or so that had issues. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/696873_Problems_with_IMI_77_gr_razor_core.html |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 3:01:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I also suggest you try some of the linked ammo... 69gr TMK ( better terminal performance ) ... BC slightly higher then the 77gr SMK, and it is launched faster... pretty much a win, win, win... as long as your barrel likes them. Reasonable price. https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/2587/-Rifle-Ammunition The other one I want to try is the Hornady's 68gr OTM. That is one I have also heard good things about. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 3:34:52 PM EDT
[#11]
i shoot IMI 77gr because its the cheapest "best" round. i get about 1.25MOA, goodnuf for me.
i tried 69 razor and had worse accuracy, barrel preference i am guessing. the most accurate round i have tested was the winchester supreme match77gr BTHP ammo. think it was around .7-.8ish |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 3:38:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I, too, would recommend CBC/Magtech 77gr OTM over other 77gr offerings. CBC 77gr OTM has been 1 of the 2 most accurate 77gr 5.56 ammo I've tried. It has about the same accuracy potential as the BH 77gr OTM, yet it cost almost half the price, at $0.60/rd. I've also tried Creedmoor 77gr OTM, IMI 77gr Razor, and BH 77gr TMK, and none have performed as good as CBC OTM and BH OTM. Right now, and for some time this ammo is nearly impossible to find, and when you do it is in 1000 round lots. The price is good enough and around $600, but if you aren't in for a 1000 or the $600, as far as I can find, you are out of luck. This is a common thing in rifle forums. Don't think I'm picking because many have done the same. It isn't as bad here as in some places that have to rely on the bulk of ammo from imports, and the particular recommendation hasn't been imported since 2002 or some such. I'm waiting for the CBC quantity sizes to get smaller and have been for some time now. Hopefully soon. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 5:56:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one is doubting what your experience is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but, Right now, and for some time this ammo is nearly impossible to find, and when you do it is in 1000 round lots. The price is good enough and around $600, but if you aren't in for a 1000 or the $600, as far as I can find, you are out of luck. This is a common thing in rifle forums. Don't think I'm picking because many have done the same. It isn't as bad here as in some places that have to rely on the bulk of ammo from imports, and the particular recommendation hasn't been imported since 2002 or some such. I'm waiting for the CBC quantity sizes to get smaller and have been for some time now. Hopefully soon. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 6:52:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bought 550rds of CBC 77gr about 3 weeks ago from buds for roughly .62 shipped(it was the last they had) . Have 1k on the way for .60 shipped from the place that starts with a b and ends with an h. I have several other 1k cases that were purchased at the .56 shipped mark in the past. **Also when I ordered from buds there were two other vendors selling per 50rd box that had it in stock in the mid .60 range. You just have to know where to look. Maybe some one can help me out here, the last import of the CBC 77gr was 3-4 months ago IIRC. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 6:59:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why so secretive about Botach? |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 7:21:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am under the impression that you cannot mention their name here on this forum... But I don't believe their name is banned, there was a thread on them just 2 weeks ago on here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/711030_Botach-tactical-AR-tools-www-botach-com.html |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 7:30:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they were banned as a vendor due to their poor customer service and responding to customer issues. But I don't believe their name is banned, there was a thread on them just 2 weeks ago on here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/711030_Botach-tactical-AR-tools-www-botach-com.html |
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Posted: 3/31/2017 11:19:27 PM EDT
[#18]
For me it was a little bit less accurate, slightly more velocity, and a little cheaper than BH262.
I use them both depending on what I'm doing. Just watch the velocities I had a box of the IMI go 2875fps+ out of my 18" barrel. That's insane, and unsafe IMO. I haven't had it happen but the one time. YMMV. |
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Posted: 4/1/2017 8:12:13 AM EDT
[#19]
In my opinion and experience with my guns....as far as accuracy goes.
#1...Black Hills 77gr (Mk262) #2...CBC (MK262) #3...IMI Razor Core (MK262) A few guns like the IMI Razor Core but most will group it closer to 2". My rifles tend to shoot the BH the best, especially the .223 pressure version. I would rather lose 100 FPS and gain .5" in accuracy. I wish that I had bought CBC to stack rather than the IMI. |
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Posted: 4/1/2017 11:00:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For me it was a little bit less accurate, slightly more velocity, and a little cheaper than BH262. I use them both depending on what I'm doing. Just watch the velocities I had a box of the IMI go 2875fps+ out of my 18" barrel. That's insane, and unsafe IMO. I haven't had it happen but the one time. YMMV. i recall a thread here about over pressure with 77gr .....and that lot of 55gr. |
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Posted: 4/2/2017 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#21]
I have purchased three 1,000 round lots of CBC 77grain with three different powders and they all shoot to same poi, same accuracy and same velocity to within a few fps. Ive hit a 36 inch diametr target at 1220 yards with it and routinley shoot at 1000 with it. If you want more accuracy and less velocity the 77 TMK loaded by Creedmoor sports is fantaistic at 1000 (5x8 inch ES) for 6 shots. It is closer to 70 cents a round delivered but still a good vakue. It takes about 1.5 MOA more elevation than the CBC at 1000 despite what G1 BC suggests. Its real world G7 is about 0.192 whicle the SMK is 0.190. Not sure about bullet set back or weather proofing on the TMK because the bullet is seated past the ogive. If you can live with that and slightly higher price and lower velocity, go for it. Creedmoor was a good company to deal with. Tracked shipment and asked if I was satisfied with it and their website.
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Posted: 4/2/2017 11:01:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
was that from lot 229F? i recall a thread here about over pressure with 77gr .....and that lot of 55gr. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For me it was a little bit less accurate, slightly more velocity, and a little cheaper than BH262. I use them both depending on what I'm doing. Just watch the velocities I had a box of the IMI go 2875fps+ out of my 18" barrel. That's insane, and unsafe IMO. I haven't had it happen but the one time. YMMV. i recall a thread here about over pressure with 77gr .....and that lot of 55gr. It was only one box that did it though. Every other box from that lot has been fine for me. |
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Posted: 4/3/2017 1:42:34 AM EDT
[#23]
My MK12 Mod 0 Douglas SS barrel really likes the IMI 77gr.OTM it has the best results for me over the 77gr.OTM from CBC-Black Hills-Federal FC262
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Posted: 4/6/2017 10:28:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Out of my barrels from best to worst in group size
1. CBC 77gr 2. IMI 77gr 3. BH MK262 The CBC stuff is just plain amazing, even out of my chrome lined barrels. |
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Posted: 4/6/2017 1:29:07 PM EDT
[#25]
at what distance is the cbc/magtech 77g (or all mk262 variant ammo) "sniper" ammo effectively leathal compared to m855 and m193?
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Posted: 4/7/2017 3:23:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
at what distance is the cbc/magtech 77g (or all mk262 variant ammo) "sniper" ammo effectively leathal compared to m855 and m193? |
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Posted: 4/7/2017 2:28:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
650 m or so with 18" barrel... that was the design requirement if i remember correctly for th mk262 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
at what distance is the cbc/magtech 77g (or all mk262 variant ammo) "sniper" ammo effectively leathal compared to m855 and m193? According to to this 77gr Ammo Test, even with the more reliably fragmenting Nosler bullet, it says the max reliable fragmentation distance is 300m with a 16" barrel. Many people reported that SMK bullet has a higher required fragmentation velocity than the Nosler. With the current SMK, the distance would be shorter than 300m. Not saying the 77gr OTM/Mk262 is not a good round, as I use it as my primary defensive round, however, I think it won't be as effective as other rounds. |
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Posted: 4/7/2017 2:53:07 PM EDT
[#28]
bullet performance at distances over 200 yards has to be a moot point in the civilian SHTF world. that is what we are talking about here right?
IMO, if you are pinned down with inbound fire and return one and hit a bad guy, i doubt anyone will be closing that distance to engage you further. that hit should provide ample time to escape or hit other BG's. so in my play book... accuracy counts MORE at 200, 300, whatever distance because hits count and misses dont. |
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Posted: 4/7/2017 4:24:02 PM EDT
[#29]
I killed 15 wild dogs in Iraq in 2004 with Mk262. Sizes ranged from 50lbs to 175lbs. All were one shot kills. No rounds exited the carcass. Dumped all the energy in the body. Ranges from 2 feet to 150 yards.
77gr OTM are very effective in my opinion. |
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Posted: 4/8/2017 11:09:49 PM EDT
[#30]
I have both the Mk262 from Blackhills and the IMI RazorCore 77gr and 69gr OTM. I order all through Midwayusa and have enjoyed it when they go on sale. It's far easier to buy IMI 77gr OTM in cans of 200 when they go on sale.
My thought is the IMI feels a little, tiny bit hotter. Pretty much all IMI ammo feels hotter/louder than their counter part. Most peculiar is their M193 lineup making a rather thunderous sound than the Federal counterpart. It's hard to say what is good or bad here. I just wait for the sales and pretty much order a few here and there. If it were up to me, I'd say go with choice rather than restricting to a single brand. |
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Posted: 4/9/2017 7:48:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Out of my barrels from best to worst in group size 1. CBC 77gr 2. IMI 77gr 3. BH MK262 The CBC stuff is just plain amazing, even out of my chrome lined barrels. |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 5:06:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Maybe this is comparing apples to oranges, but how does Prvi 75gr BTHP compare to Razor or other offerings?
Or the 77gr OTM from Fiocchi or PMC? |
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Posted: 4/10/2017 6:06:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe this is comparing apples to oranges, but how does Prvi 75gr BTHP compare to Razor or other offerings? Or the 77gr OTM from Fiocchi or PMC? interestingly enough, at longer ranges it seemed to do better, more in line with imi razor 77gr. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:06:33 AM EDT
[#34]
I shoot IMI 77gr Razorcore, Black Hills 77gr SMK MK262 and Black Hills 77gr TMK out of my 18 inch AR and 24 inch bolt gun.
Quick Summary: IMI is about 50 fps faster and groups are about .25 larger. Bolt Gun 24" IMI 2900 fps ~.75 MOA Black Hills MK262 2857 fps .5 moa or less (depending on lot, some shoots around 1/4 moa) Black Hills TMK 2900 fps same as MK262 Gas Gun 18" IMI 2785 fsp ~1-.75 moa Black Hills MK262 2737 fps ~.75-.5 moa |
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