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Posted: 11/7/2011 2:34:07 PM EDT
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I am interested in a 308 AR-type rifle, and I want to stay on the "budget" end of the market. Any suggestions?
Also, please help me understand what types of mags the various brands use. Do the rifles that use G3 and FN mags function reliably? I think I heard that RRA had some trouble with the FN mags in the beginning. Thanks! |
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Quoted:
I am interested in a 308 AR-type rifle, and I want to stay on the "budget" end of the market. Any suggestions? Also, please help me understand what types of mags the various brands use. Do the rifles that use G3 and FN mags function reliably? I think I heard that RRA had some trouble with the FN mags in the beginning. Thanks! Armalite pattern and don't look back. |
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DPMS rifles are about as budget as you're gonna get a factory .308 AR without building your own from new/used parts.
New DPMS mags work great and you can always use Pmags too. They take AR15 trigger groups and (I think) AR15 stocks & buffer tubes. The Orracle (16" carbine) and Classic (20" Hbar rifle) will be the cheapest - both are under $1000 The AP4 is basically the Orracle with a freefloat tube or quadrail and standard FSB - but a tad more expensive. The TAC20 is basically the Classic with a freefloat quadrail - also a bit more expensive. From most all accounts, freefloated DPMS .308 rifles are very accurate, sub-moa reports are not uncommon. Also, by most accounts, the triggers are pretty bad so prepare to replace it with a better trigger group (or match trigger kit). |
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I've owned and continue to use Armalite's, DPMS/Knight's, and FN Mags in the .308 AR's. So far, I like the PMAGs the best in the DPMS/Knight's pattern rifles.
I would build it yourself. That's the only way I do them now, and not in .308, unless you are counting on a .308 logistics chain for some reason. What are your intended purposes for the rifle? Hunting, long-range, SHTF car-buster? Budget? |
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See what ARMALITE does for a Thanksgiving Day Sale.
They normally put up the # U10A4BF @ $650 
and you can build a complete lower for $390 or buy one at $420. I've never met a AR-10A4 {yepper, double handlapped chrome-lined chamber and bore} that didn't shoot under 1" 5 shot groups at 100yds. I'm on my third A4 since the summer of '99. |
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If I was just getting ready-made parts for a hunting rig, I would get a Tactical Machining complete lower, and a DPMS 20" .260 Rem lightweight upper.
The .260 Rem will smoke the .308 all day long. There is shelf ammo available for .260 with many hunting loads, but I only reload for hunting and precision rifles. |
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Budget guns in the 308 are not a good idea.
Buy used, and replace parts. That will be your cheapest option. And as others have stated, go with Armalite. You can get a complete rifle for around 1200$ give or take. Depending on how hard you look. Or piece it together like I did. But you end up spending more this way because you buy the stuff you want, rather than being given something and adapting. Armalite makes great stuff. They have something special coming out on the 11th this month. No idea what, on their website it just says 11-11-11 "Watch for It." Could be a sale, or something new. Anyways, I would stay away from the budget DPMS rifles. Takes too much to make a good gun. Its possible sure, but not the best in anyway. Armalite would be a great option. Or build a DPMS frankengun. You would save some dough that way. |
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Quoted:
Budget guns in the 308 are not a good idea. Buy used, and replace parts. That will be your cheapest option. And as others have stated, go with Armalite. You can get a complete rifle for around 1200$ give or take. Depending on how hard you look. Or piece it together like I did. But you end up spending more this way because you buy the stuff you want, rather than being given something and adapting. Armalite makes great stuff. They have something special coming out on the 11th this month. No idea what, on their website it just says 11-11-11 "Watch for It." Could be a sale, or something new. Anyways, I would stay away from the budget DPMS rifles. Takes too much to make a good gun. Its possible sure, but not the best in anyway. Armalite would be a great option. Or build a DPMS frankengun. You would save some dough that way. As the three month owner of a DPMS, I have to agree with this. I bought it because I have had good experience with a DPMS 223 rifle, and there are a lot of good reviews on here. After putting a trigger in it, I could have had an Armalite for the same money, which I found out later. High dollar ammo gets 2 moa at the best, usually 3 or 4. Can't pull out a live round without lots of force, and doesn't always go fully into battery, with factory, surplus or reloads. All of that should be solvable with a new barrel, but I'd almost rather start over with an AR10. The 19 rd mags work ok, my two 10 rounders don't, PMags do. Yes, there are 1 MOA DPMSs that work perfect off the shelf, and there's no shortage of them in "Is DPMS any good" threads. There are also crap boxes, and you can't tell which is which until you buy it. Seems like Armalite gives you a better chance at a good gun. |
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I know lots of guys like the Armalite rifles, but I am going to ask anyway, what is the standard that is used with the M110? Isn't it a DPMS style upper and lower, and not an AR10 style with the angle interface at the rear? I only ask because eventually, milspec becomes the trickle down standard...usually. Which means that mags, etc will be built along that standard.
Theoretically. |
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Quoted:
I know lots of guys like the Armalite rifles, but I am going to ask anyway, what is the standard that is used with the M110? Isn't it a DPMS style upper and lower, and not an AR10 style with the angle interface at the rear? I only ask because eventually, milspec becomes the trickle down standard...usually. Which means that mags, etc will be built along that standard. Theoretically. I think the SR25 has a pattern more like Armalites. I may be incorrect, but it was to my understanding an SR25 upper will not fit a DPMS lower, and vice verse. But all the parts swap out. Armalite has much more good rifles. DPMS is all about mass production. Which my dad has a DPMS AR15 and it shoots just fine. All he has ever shot has been Wolf and other cheap crap from the gun show. No failures for the entire time he had that rifle. But, their 308 is a different story. You have too good of a chance to get a lemon from DPMS. Sure it can be fixed easily like most AR platforms, but its just the hassle involved. I think Armalite makes rifles on par with KAC. Say what you will, the SR25 is way over priced and does not perform that much better than Armalites. Their BCGs are similar, but the SR25 has a much better barrel standard. Nothing that cant be swapped on the Armalite and still have enough for extra goodies to equal the price of the SR25. KAC has the cool factor behind it, which is fine because they can back up their coolness with reality. But still over priced goods. Buyer beware. You get what you paid for. My only advice, DO NOT buy sight unseen. Always inspect first. If you can. ETA: There will never be a standard in the 308 world. If anything, it would become the FAL or M14 style. Those are used more widely than the SR25 style. |
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I don't even buy them off the shelf anymore. The big boys get a build from scratch using a Bartlein barrel, but that isn't economical. There are some great barrels available from Tactical Machining and Fulton Armory though.
I've posted here before about all the sources of parts for the big AR's. The TM lowers are the best deal, and a great-looking lower-nicer than DPMS, at almost half the price. Armalite has the best bolt carrier group between the two, since they have a spring-loaded firing pin, and a balanced lug design. Armalite bolt carrier groups will fit in DPMS-pattern rifles. The Rock River guns are nice as well, but the receivers are much longer, so you don't have the charge handle options you do with the standard-length receivers from Knight's/Armalite/DPMS, and if you get a PRS, you have to cut the cheek piece even more to work with the RRA LAR-8 charge handle. |
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If you look you can find a new Armalite rifle or carbine with forward assist between $1200 and $1300. It is a fine base weapon and parts are readily available.
The other side of this argument leans toward rifles that use the 308/7.62mm PMAG magazine. Perhaps false economy to use the cheapest available (though it seems in ready supply and dependable) magazine for rifles and carbines that may retail for $1000 or more than the basic Armalite rifle and carbine. A Remington R-25 / DPMS AP-4 seems like a good deal, price-wise, for a basic gun. I don't know whether or not parts are available but with Remington behind it the mass-produced gun has the potential to be around a while. The Larue has exceptional back-end customer service. The Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) MWS is a well-executed design with the minor weight penalty for the barrel-change capability. Not sure what the LMT's parts availability is. The Knight Enhanced Military Carbine seems the nicest of the recent KAC 7.62 rifle/carbine systems. KAC products are expensive in relation to all others. I have absolutely no idea what their current commercial customer support record is as far as parts and service. They have the experience of many government contracts behind them, and their production base is aimed at keeping their number 1 customers happy (as it should be). Anything else requires a trusting soul willing to guess whether the manufacturer will stand behind their product. Some have the potential to succeed spectacularly, while others may survive on the fringes. Armalite gives you the opportunity to buy multiple upper receivers to customize as you wish (I can't stand having orphan receivers in the gun safe but it's nice to know I can build my own if I want to). Not sure how many competitors will even sell you their base bare upper and bolt carrier group so you can be your own mad scientist and hot rodder. |
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Quoted:The other side of this argument leans toward rifles that use the 308/7.62mm PMAG magazine. Perhaps false economy to use the cheapest available (though it seems in ready supply and dependable) magazine for rifles and carbines that may retail for $1000 or more than the basic Armalite rifle and carbine.
I don't think the reason most people choose the Pmag because it is the cheapest. (But $190 for ten mags sure as heck beats $350-$450... even if the stck costs $1000+) It's nice that they're cheap, but I'd buy the Pmags even if they were the same price as metal/factory mags. I suspect most .308 AR shooters would too. Heck, look at the AR15 platform and the popularity of pmag there... nearly 50% more expensive and it's still the magaine of choice! IMO, in any AR pattern rifle they simply feed the smoothest/best compared to straight/bent steel or aluminum mags... regardless of whose name is stamped on the floorplate. The combination of constant curvature and slick polymer walls & follower makes them the smoothest mags for .308 or 5.56 ARs. And they're lighter too! The DPMS/SR25 pattern rifle's ability to accept a Magpul magazine is not false economy... its a benefit that allows the use of a superior magazine. |
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The DPMS/SR25 pattern rifle's ability to accept a Magpul magazine is not false economy... its a benefit that allows the use of a superior magazine. The 308 PMag is superior to none. The AR15 PMag is not really superior, just very well made and properly executed. They still fail, they are not perfect. The magazine is still the weakest link in these rifles, no matter what name is on it or what material is made from. Its a pretty well known fact which three308 mag designs are the best. That would be the M14, FAL, and HK91. These are the most durable, most reliable, and most combat proven 308 mags out there. I dont think MagPul can match that ever in the 308. UNLESS, they make a FAL, M14, or HK91 style mag, then just maybe. 
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| If building a .308 AR on a budget, I believe the best option is to buy a DPMS pattern upper and lower (from TM or similar), and build it. That way you get a nicer receiver than from DPMS, with winter trigger guard, for less money. And you get the benefit of using the DPMS/Knights pattern mags (including Pmags). Like it or not, that mag has become the standard (largely due to being accepted by both the British and U.S. military). And by building it, you won't be wasting money on the parts that you will replace anyways (like triggers and pistol grips). |
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