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Posted: 10/28/2016 7:40:43 PM EDT
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Evening, everyone! Just thought I'd introduce myself - built up the first AR I've ever owned over the last month, and I immediately had one of those 'I'm gonna like this' moments the first trip out to the range. Looking forward to lounging around here.
Rifle in question. Had a page on what exactly went into it, but the character limit made short work of that, so feel free to ask. Took it out to the range and fired ~200 rounds through it so far, been busy lately so I haven't had much time. Functions flawlessly, which surprised me being that I've never even owned an AR before let alone ordered one in piece-by-piece. Accuracy-wise, though, it doesn't shoot for crap right now (as expected, to be honest)... probably a 4" group at 100 yards with Federal factory loads. Haven't gotten around to getting reloading supplies yet because I still haven't really settled on a caliber. Barrel is one of MidwayUSA's AR-Stoner branded .223 20" Stainless HBAR barrels... it certainly looks nice, but I wasn't banking on $100 of barrel being too accurate. The BCG is whatever came with the same AR-Stoner side-charge receiver; the receiver itself is exactly what I was looking for (I think it's a Bear Creek rebrand?) and is milled beautifully, but the BCG leaves a bit to be desired and so I've been watching for something to replace it with. Eisenach and Young Mfg both appear to have units which will work dimensionally with the upper. I'm just gonna fire off questions here: Any thoughts on how long it takes for a new barrel to settle into how it's going to be shooting reliably? Any recommendations for a reasonably priced 6.8 SPC barrel and/or quality barrel mfg's in general? What should be the first steps in getting group sizes down in terms of work on the rifle itself? Looking forward to it! Much appreciated, - M |
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4" seems like a lot at 100 yards with a stainless 20" barrel. I would make sure that everything looks right in terms of not over or under torquing the barrel. I would also make sure that you have the rifle shooting fundamentals down in terms of breathing, trigger pull, etc. Does it have a stock trigger? Are you using a scope or irons?
Edit: If that was my barrel with a free floated hand guard and a decent trigger, I would at least expect 2-3 with factory cheap ammo. I would expect 1 or under with a good trigger/glass and good marksman fundamentals down. |
Nikon ProStaff 2-7x32 (inexpensive but still pretty nice), and a stock trigger group from an Anderson lower parts kit. Lapped the surfaces on a sheet of glass (If you're ever about to sh*tcan a printer/scanner, scrap the glass out of it. It works great for things like this.  ) and some fine sandpaper and it's a respectably smooth ~5lbs. Been shooting for years, though admittedly mostly handguns and the milsurp rifle collection... I'm sure inexperience is a part of it, but definitely not 3" worth of it. Barrel nut was torqued to what I'd call 40 ft-lbs then worked back and forth a few times until a gas tube hole lined up.
I'll go dig out the best target it shot last range trip and stick it up here. Might have been closer to 3-3.5", but definitely nothing I'd go around showing people and going 'look at this'. I'm going to go throw some more lead downrange tomorrow and see if it does any better... I know I was literally cleaning the machining scrap out of this barrel when it came to me in a tube, it must have been rifled and sent right out the door. |
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Another first post asking why your home brew 1st AR isn't as accurate as you'd like... At least you're not a 13-er.
Where did you learn how to assemble the rifle? What tools did you use? Have you tried other ammo? Improper assembly, out of spec parts, loose barrel nuts & rails or scope mounts can all cause accuracy issues. Also, most non-match ammo is 2-3 moa but don't perform the same in all rifles. Stainless barrels should settle in within 100 rds and many people don't believe there is any break-in period in a barrel. As for 6.8 info, there's a whole 6.8 SPC forum you know. ARPerformance and Black hole weaponry (I think) are 2 of the better 6.8 barrel makers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted:
Another first post asking why your home brew 1st AR isn't as accurate as you'd like... At least you're not a 13-er. Where did you learn how to assemble the rifle? What tools did you use? Have you tried other ammo? Improper assembly, out of spec parts, loose barrel nuts & rails or scope mounts can all cause accuracy issues. Also, most non-match ammo is 2-3 moa but don't perform the same in all rifles. Stainless barrels should settle in within 100 rds and many people don't believe there is any break-in period in a barrel. As for 6.8 info, there's a whole 6.8 SPC forum you know. ARPerformance and Black hole weaponry (I think) are 2 of the better 6.8 barrel makers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile What an incredibly rude and abrasive way to approach someone asking for help. There is a section for 6.8 info. He almost definitely did not know that what with the fact that he just joined and introduced himself. Which section are you referring to? When you scroll through the sub forums I don't believe there is a section dedicated to 6.8. There is an AR Variants section found HERE Why would you bother visiting this section for AR Basics if you are just going to be a dick? ----------------------------------- Northern Wing. Welcome to the forum and interesting looking rifle right there. You have a lot of questions and a lot of reading to do it seems. Looks like you jumped the gun on some of your parts and are already thinking you want to replace them. People around here have a term thrown around buy once cry once. Some people misinterpret it to mean you must by the very best item money can buy. That isn't really the case. It means you should buy the item that fits your needs the best which may cost more. We have a healthy equipment exchange that you may be able to recuperate some of your money but when you start with a barrel costing 100 bucks it is hard to sell it used. Just looking at the rifle mixed with the fact that you said you are used to mil surp rifles makes me think you probably need to consider adjusting your scope further back. I am sure you are able to make it work as is and everyone is different but many new AR shooters think they should contort their body around the gun when in reality the modern sport rifle series really lends it self well to the concept of working for you. If you shoot a surplus rifle you have little control over length of pull and eye relief but with an AR you do. Be sure you are able to comfortably get a natural point of aim with the rifle. Im sure you know this but I will cover it in case someone reading doesn't. Get behind your rifle and get on target. Take a few normal breaths then close your eyes for a few breathing cycles. When you open your eyes the reticle should still be on target or very close. If not you are muscling the gun into position. Its very easy to determine you are battling the ergonomics of the gun when you pull it off target with your eyes closed. You asked about barrels settling into accuracy. This is all over and considering you have a relatively low grade barrel to start it could be in your first few groups out to hundreds of rounds. If you were pulling steel out of the barrel when it arrived I would doubt they put a lot of time and energy into quality control. 6.8 stuff. I don't shoot 6.8 and can't direct you on that. It might be smart to sit and figure out why you want a 6.8 in the first place. You should really go through the list of what you want to do with the gun and how you expect it to do each of those things. Then you need to consider how much you want to pay to do it. You said you reload but do you want to be able to buy factory loads in abundance? What range do you hope to primarily shoot? How can you tighten your groups? Well it depends on where you are starting. Group improvement is on a curve. A huge amount of improvement can be made with a coach and proper ammo. If you are shooting 4 inch groups at 100 you could cut that in half with a shooter that is used to the AR trigger with a round the barrel likes. In terms of replacing parts one of the biggest improvements you can make that will be long lasting is your trigger. The AR market is flush with extremely high quality triggers. The difference in pull between a quality trigger and the 'stock' milspec offerings is huge. The other change would of course be your barrel which you already said you were looking into. This go around read a whole bunch and try to look at why you are doing everything. Confirmation bias is a big deal with the AR crowd. There are a lot of echo chamber threads on this forum where a few dozen people all parrot that product X is the best. Many of them rarely shoot and are trying to get validation for a thing they purchased. There are some incredible barrels out there in the 20 inch length that can shoot really well. When you do end up getting one go into the hometown tab on the forum and find your state. Ask and see if anyone local has an upper receiver lapping tool and a torque wrench that will help you properly install your barrel. Enjoy your new rifle. |
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I said a "forum" not a section of this forum, i.e. www.68forums.com which is dedicated to the 6.8 caliber as you might've guessed. Op waltzs in here and supplies almost no technical background on his abilities or problem and asks for help. Since he admits this is his first rifle and first build of an AR, it is entirely appropriate to request info on his background and build procedure. It's great that he can polish a trigger with a plate of glass from a scanner but that says nothing about how his upper is assembled.
I'm also trying to jolt some interest in this topic to help the Op - I've been watching this thread for a few days waiting for someone familiar with these barrels to chime in but there haven't been any takers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I said a "forum" not a section of this forum, i.e. www.68forums.com which is dedicated to the 6.8 caliber as you might've guessed. Op waltzs in here and supplies almost no technical background on his abilities or problem and asks for help. Since he admits this is his first rifle and first build of an AR, it is entirely appropriate to request info on his background and build procedure, not wax poetically for 3 paragraphs to stroke your own ego while avoiding the topic at hand. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Linking to other firearms websites is generally not allowed on the site which is why I thought you meant on here. Op didn't waltz anywhere. He registered on a forum. Hundreds of people do that every day. Many of them see GD or someone being crass and decide they don't need to log in for that. |
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What an incredibly rude and abrasive way to approach someone asking for help. Quoted:
What an incredibly rude and abrasive way to approach someone asking for help. I agree. The guy is new, everyone is at some point. Quoted:
Where did you learn how to assemble the rifle? Give him a chance, he might not have considered posting information like that. |
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What should be the first steps in getting group sizes down in terms of work on the rifle itself? Can we get some more information on your build and what ammunition you're using? Pictures are nice too. I've always found I get the most out of my rifle past about 200 rounds, around the same time I become accustomed to the rifle. |
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Actually, wait a hot minute:
Op, have you ever polished triggers before? Mil-spec trigger surfaces are case hardened and the depth of the hardening can vary. If you polish thru the hardened layer the trigger may become gritty or a bit unpredictable which would impact your accuracy. Hence, polishing mil-spec AR triggers is generally a touchy proposition. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Federal factory loads. To me, standard 55 gr rounds are pure training rounds, to be fired to develop weapon handling skills. I can burn through 2-4 thousand rounds of that stuff in a week of training. If you're looking at improving accuracy, you may consider starting with your ammunition, provided everything else with your rifle is good to go. Quoted:
Barrel is one of MidwayUSA's AR-Stoner house brand .223 20" Stainless HBAR barrels, 1:8. This is a budget barrel. A $100 barrel versus a $300 barrel versus a $500 barrel will show differences. You know this. Moving on. Quoted:
BCG What exactly is your issue with the BCG? I'm sure you know that the parts of a rifle function together to perform the job. You can have a $2000 rifle and a $2 spring could throw off its performance. You could pour money on this project searching for an answer, money better saved to buy more guns. If you don't mind, throw up your parts list, tell us how you put it together and where you learned to do that. There is a big difference in doing it and doing it right. There is a lot of combined knowledge here. I think Krusty was trying to get this across but was a bit grouchy in his approach. |
Erm, well, I wasn't really expecting to come back to this. Let me sift through things and comment as much as I can here. 
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Another first post asking why your home brew 1st AR isn't as accurate as you'd like... At least you're not a 13-er. ... As for 6.8 info, there's a whole 6.8 SPC forum you know. ARPerformance and Black hole weaponry (I think) are 2 of the better 6.8 barrel makers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
Another first post asking why your home brew 1st AR isn't as accurate as you'd like... At least you're not a 13-er. ... As for 6.8 info, there's a whole 6.8 SPC forum you know. ARPerformance and Black hole weaponry (I think) are 2 of the better 6.8 barrel makers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile - Actually, I didnt. I'm not asking why it isn't accurate - it has a sub-par barrel, average trigger, and I'm inexperienced. I was just looking for opinions on what to do first while I introduce myself. Quoted:
Northern Wing. Welcome to the forum and interesting looking rifle right there. You have a lot of questions and a lot of reading to do it seems. Looks like you jumped the gun on some of your parts and are already thinking you want to replace them. People around here have a term thrown around buy once cry once. Some people misinterpret it to mean... ... Enjoy your new rifle. Thanks! I did run this pretty cheap since it was my first build and I'm fully prepared to scrap a few things now that I have a better idea of what I'm doing, the barrel unfortunately being one of them. It was a good learning experience. I'll have to check out the classifieds around here to see what all's for sale. I don't mind the rough welcome from a few people... I'm a computer hardware (read electrical) engineer by trade and so I've certainly made my rounds around the internet. Maybe I could have grabbed a better barrel out of the gates, but I figured I'd rather learn on something cheap and wait a bit to buy something really nice than grab something more middle-of-the-road and feel bad about ditching it later anyway. Just my thought process. 2000-character limit is killing me, by the way. |
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Op, have you ever polished triggers before? Mil-spec trigger surfaces are case hardened and the depth of the hardening can vary. If you polish thru the hardened layer the trigger may become gritty or a bit unpredictable which would impact your accuracy. Hence, polishing mil-spec AR triggers is generally a touchy proposition. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I've done quite a bit of handgun gunsmithing, but not much rifle; I basically only polished it enough to clear the factory finish off of the engagement surfaces, no metal was really taken off. It was what I'd almost call unusable out-of-the-bag, and that's saying something coming from a guy that enjoys an old Yugo M59/66. Quoted:
To me, standard 55 gr rounds are pure training rounds, to be fired to develop weapon handling skills. I can burn through 2-4 thousand rounds of that stuff in a week of training. If you're looking at improving accuracy, you may consider starting with your ammunition, provided everything else with your rifle is good to go. This is a budget barrel. A $100 barrel versus a $300 barrel versus a $500 barrel will show differences. You know this. Moving on. What exactly is your issue with the BCG? My thoughts too - I picked up some 55gr ammo just to verify that it functioned in the first place, and to get used to a new platform. Like I said, when I'm comfortable with everything, I plan on grabbing reloading equipment for whatever round I decide I like the best and will take it from there. Yep, I do know this - I'd rather ruin a $100 barrel than a $500 one. The bolt carrier isn't causing any issues functionally, which is why I've left it alone, but there are a lot more sharp edges and rough machining marks than I'm accustomed to. Maybe I have a lemon. |
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Can we get some more information on your build and what ammunition you're using? Sure thing - just didn't have space up in the original post. Anderson Mil-Spec Stripped Lower AR-Stoner Side Charging Upper + BCG AR-Stoner .223 Wylde 1:8 20" Stainless HBAR Barrel Anderson Lower Parts Kit, Buffer Tube Assy Nordic NC-1 Free Float Handguard Magpul MOE Rifle Stock + 0.8" Pad Magpul MOE Pistol Grip Weaver SPR 1" Scope Mount Nikon ProStaff 2-7x32 Duplex Grabbed the lower from a local gunshop, it was inexpensive but I don't see any problems whatsoever with it. The upper was either going to be an Eisenach side-charger or Midway's house brand; the Eisenach being twice the price of the AR-Stoner (I think this is a rebranded Bear Creek upper?) was a bit hard to swallow and I really didn't want to go all-out until I'm sure I know what I'm doing, so I went with the less expensive option. Like I said, the machining on the upper itself is great. I went with Anderson parts kits just because they were well reviewed and matched the lower. The handguard again is inexpensive, but was exactly what I wanted and so I'm considering the pricetag an added bonus and not the reason I went with it. I have a ProStaff 4-12x40 on my Marlin MR7 30-06, and it's always worked beautifully; they've updated that line to have these gaudy plastic turret caps, though, so when I found one of the older ones on clearance at a local shop I bought it immediately. The barrel really is the only thing I bought fully intending to replace it in a year or so. Everything was assembled with a Weaver torque driver and the proper anti-sieze on the barrel nut. |
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Here is today's best target - it's trying to group American Eagle a bit to the left apparently, but it does appear to be bringing them in a bit. I'd post the older targets if I still had them... It's quite the improvement though. For now, I'll keep shooting her and see how things go - like I said, I completely understand that there are some cheap parts on this rifle, but if something stands out as being underwhelming, it's probably because I plan on replacing it in the future once I have a better understanding of what I'm doing anyway. I really just wanted to say hello to everyone around here and listen to some opinions on what to tackle first. Glad to see all the interest!
I was actually prepared to take a lot of flak for the side-charging upper; I know I've read some really heated debates over them here before. I'm really quite happy with the rifle in general and am definitely going to get my money's worth out of it before anything gets replaced. I'd spent months making sure I had everything lined up before firing off orders to Midway and PrimaryArms, most of what I know either came from over here actually. That's all - wish I could have packed all that into a single post, but I figure I should at least try to answer everything while I'm here. |
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