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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:30:51 PM EDT
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Looking at a transferrable commercial marked (no 02 model designation or US property markings). Lower is only marked "CAL .223" Serial number is AL01535X, which falls just outside of 601 range but before 602 production. Barrel is marked M and then the VP triangle. Seller claims rifle is all original from 1965. Seems like a 1962-1963 receiver with an early 604 upper slapped on? Interesting that the serial number is only a few digits away from the Colt 608 survival rifles. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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I have never heard of an "unmarked" actual Colt or Armalite lower nor ever one with an "AL" prefix serial number. I do not believe it is a factory Colt or Armalite anything. It's definitely NOT an original rifle. The upper is likely therefore also not an original - but may be made up of surplus or new old stock parts. |
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Here is the lower Attached File There is another "602" with an AL015XXX serial number prefix that was discussed on this forum several years back but it had a different upper Here is the thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/123-501463/?page=1 |
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Quoted: Here is the lower https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/282730/IMG_7109_jpg-1839626.JPG There is another "602" with an AL015XXX serial number prefix that was discussed on this forum several years back but it had a different upper Here is the thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/123-501463/?page=1 Still not a 602. Does it have a partial fence lower like the one you linked? Colt did not run its serials consecutively, so it’s possible that this serial number/receiver was set aside and built into a rifle at a later date for an exec, etc. The gun is more similar to a 604/614 than a 602. It is none of these, however, because it would be marked as such if it was. What makes a 602 a 602 is the engraved “r” and arrow by the rear sight (like the gun you linked) and typically a VP 12 barrel. It’s possible M VP barrels came on late 602s and the raised/forged “r” and arrow might have been on late 602s as well. 602 production for the Air Force basically went straight into 604 production with the adjustments being made, even though both were considered “M16s” |
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Quoted: It doesn’t have an AL prefix, it’s says “Serial 015350”, the i is faint. It’s definitely early, probably an export model 604. There’s a 607 in a European museum with similar markings if I remember right. I wasn’t looking closely, but this was a good observation |
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Quoted: Still not a 602. Does it have a partial fence lower like the one you linked? Colt did not run its serials consecutively, so it’s possible that this serial number/receiver was set aside and built into a rifle at a later date for an exec, etc. The gun is more similar to a 604/614 than a 602. It is none of these, however, because it would be marked as such if it was. What makes a 602 a 602 is the engraved “r” and arrow by the rear sight (like the gun you linked) and typically a VP 12 barrel. It’s possible M VP barrels came on late 602s and the raised/forged “r” and arrow might have been on late 602s as well. 602 production for the Air Force basically went straight into 604 production with the adjustments being made, even though both were considered “M16s” A correction to my above post. After looking again, I think the rifle you linked also has a raised R like the 604/614 and not like the 602 |
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This may not answer anything but worth the read before anyone "jumps the gun" : Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Receiver markings are period correct - "COLT'S PATENT FIRE ARMS" "MFG CO." was correct for receivers produced before and shortly after the renaming of the company in 1964. Tons of later receivers still had those markings because they were produced before the name change, but not shipped or issued until many years or sometimes decades later, but the name changed to "COLT'S FIREARMS DIVISION" after 1964, and then to "COLT'S MFG" in 1990 or so, and sometime after that in the 2000s to "COLT DEFENSE, LLC" |
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There are other things to consider too regarding uppers. Back in about 2010 someone posted an upper that had the port door spring hole, engraved arrow and R, was square forge, but it did not have the 3 flats above the charging handle. I discussed this upper with someone who owns many real deal full auto M16s and more and he referred to this type upper as a transitional 604. No idea if it's hard core info or not. Then we also had a phase here where folks modified 604 uppers. Sanding off the raised R and arrow and having them engraved, filing the 3 flats, even locating and drilling for the port door spring hole. After passing hands, I'm sure some of those will be sold as original 602s. As for the prefix "AL" on the lower above, it looks to be the "al" for the word "serial" but the "i" is faint. |
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Quoted: This may not answer anything but worth the read before anyone "jumps the gun" : https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/182845/1_jpg-1839891.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/182845/2_jpg-1839892.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/182845/3_jpg-1839893.JPG For what it’s worth, coming from someone who studies these rifles heavily, I have problems with this article and think it is flawed. Most of the issues being described in the last column of the first page were issues with the XM16E1 in the 1965-1966 timeframe, when the Army was screwing around with the Technical Data Package ALOT, including with the load data of the cartridge. Furthermore, the 601 was very successful in its field trials with SOF units during Project AGILE (1963 I believe). That’s why the military continued to pursue the platform. Additionally, the article alludes to the fact that the author thinks that ArmaLite manufactured the Model 601s (the 601 does have an ArmaLite roll mark on the side, but it also has “Colt” and the Colt horse and globe logo). It appears he believes this one rifle is the “missing link” between ArmaLite manufactured Model 01s and Colt manufactured Model 02s, but this simply isn’t the case. Colt began production with the Model 01... that’s why it’s the Model 01. When we discuss “Transitional AR-15s” we are primarily discussing XM16E1s of 1965-1967 because a lot of changes were made in that window. It does appear the rifle in the article could be a “transition” between the 601 and 602 but we know the changes between those models were very few other than small changes like barrel markings, rollmarks, the furniture, and maybe the rifling twist depending on when you believe the 1/12 twist was introduced into all production rifles. I don’t even think this is the case though because 602s retained chrome bolt carriers through production, for example. He says the rifle retains its “original and obsolete Model 01 buffer.” That’s not really a profound discovery because the edgewater buffer was in use long after this rifle was produced, so there’s no “transition” there. Same thing with the stock, where he’s talking about the fact that it doesn’t have a trap door. The trap door wasn’t introduced until 1971. He also talks about “simulated wood finish.” There is no such thing. The material was Bakelite and it was brown and had a grain to it. There is nothing that says it was developed to look like wood, but those who don’t know just assume that is the case. It was the prolific composite material of the day. They also didn’t get rid of the chrome because it was “reflective” but because the “flashy chrome” would flake off. I understand there’s better info today than when this article was written but I don’t think that makes it free from criticism. There’s no doubt that the rifle being discussed is interesting (and I wish there were more pictures of it) but this article is flawed. In my opinion, using what we know today (that Colt would set serial numbers aside to be built as executive guns and tool room guns later), this rifle was one of a few similar “parts guns” or “one-off” builds (left column, last page) made at Colt using later parts than what would be expected for that serial number. Put differently, serial numbers 14,500 through 14,999 were built in 1965 on 1965 era receivers. Colt’s military production run rifles (601s and 602s) were were well past serial number 50,000 by the end of 1964. The rifle/rifles in question in this thread may also be the same, and I see nothing to indicate that they aren’t original. However, they are not a 601, 602, 604 or 614, as they would be marked as such. It might be identical in every fashion, but in my opinion, the marking is what makes it what it is. Just like with the XM4 program. In my research, Colt had two internal codes (RO720 and RO729) for otherwise identical rifles other than name and markings. Colt is weird like that and that’s why I find solving these mysteries so interesting. |
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My 2 cents are that it’s some tool room or test lower. I have a couple unmarked lowers that are factory colt that were used in the tool room. These lowers had no need to have a model as they were never supposed to leave. Is this rifle by chance a recent acquisition from the past 3-5 years out of the collection of John Koeysian? He had a ton of out of the ordinary rifles that were test rifles and unmarked so they made no sense and I consider them 1 off rifles so wouldn’t put them in normal timelines. Still unique but not a typical 601, 602, 604...... |
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Quoted: My 2 cents are that it’s some tool room or test lower. I have a couple unmarked lowers that are factory colt that were used in the tool room. These lowers had no need to have a model as they were never supposed to leave. Is this rifle by chance a recent acquisition from the past 3-5 years out of the collection of John Koeysian? He had a ton of out of the ordinary rifles that were test rifles and unmarked so they made no sense and I consider them 1 off rifles so wouldn’t put them in normal timelines. Still unique but not a typical 601, 602, 604...... ^^^ |
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