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Posted: 10/20/2012 12:56:23 PM EDT
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Every magazine I own is loaded. AR, AK, FAL, Pistols, all of them. I keep them all loaded because they're only useful if they're loaded. The only time they're not loaded is the time between my firing them empty and reloading them. I've always understood the truth to be that compression and extension (use of the magazine) wears the springs, not prolonged compression.
In the November issue of American Rifleman (page 47), Reid coffield opines that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months." This runs contrary to what I've believed / practiced for years. I have thousands of rounds loaded in magazines...many in ammo cans for semi-permanent storage. Of course I know that just because it's in a gun rag don't make it so. Are there any engineers in here that can weigh in on this topic...again... |
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Quoted:
Every magazine I own is loaded. AR, AK, FAL, Pistols, all of them. I keep them all loaded because they're only useful if they're loaded. The only time they're not loaded is the time between my firing them empty and reloading them. I've always understood the truth to be that compression and extension (use of the magazine) wears the springs, not prolonged compression. In the November issue of American Rifleman (page 47), Reid coffield opines that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months." This runs contrary to what I've believed / practiced for years. I have thousands of rounds loaded in magazines...many in ammo cans for semi-permanent storage. Of course I know that just because it's in a gun rag don't make it so. Are there any engineers in here that can weigh in on this topic...again... With respect, BS! Springs get "tired" from being flexed multiple times, not from being compressed over time. |
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.......So, some of mine are loaded, some are not. Unloaded mags are useful in some circumstances. Same here. I keep 4 AK mags loaded all the time. When I take them out back to the range and empty them, four different mags get loaded up and stashed in the grab pouch. Six AR mags are kept in the same condition, and cycled accordingly. The same applies to several handguns, I keep a few mags loaded for the "just in case" scenario, the rest are empty. But the bulk of my mags are not loaded, and I don't believe it would be detrimental to keep them loaded. |
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Quoted:
Every magazine I own is loaded. AR, AK, FAL, Pistols, all of them. I keep them all loaded because they're only useful if they're loaded. The only time they're not loaded is the time between my firing them empty and reloading them. I've always understood the truth to be that compression and extension (use of the magazine) wears the springs, not prolonged compression. In the November issue of American Rifleman (page 47), Reid coffield opines that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months." This runs contrary to what I've believed / practiced for years. I have thousands of rounds loaded in magazines...many in ammo cans for semi-permanent storage. Of course I know that just because it's in a gun rag don't make it so. Are there any engineers in here that can weigh in on this topic...again... I just read that exact same article and went    "He just made a million readers that much dumber." Seriously, he has no idea what he is talking about. Leave your mags loaded, they are fine.
KingOfTheBumps |
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So who wants to write in and inform Mr. Coffield? I have a lot of respect for Reid Coffield, and I admit that I have not read the article in question, nor would I ever imply that I know even a slight percentage as much as he on these matters, but if he did in fact state, as quoted above, that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and is using that premise to suggest that leaving a magazine "properly" loaded (not overloaded, which is possible with some mags) for prolonged periods will lead to spring failure, then yes, I do disagree with him. There is simply too much evidence gathered over many years of valid testing to prove otherwise. Apparently he went on to say that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months", to which I completely agree, and this has been my practice for as long as I can remember. I've never been a big fan of long term storage of loaded mags. A few on hand for the possible "emergency" yeah, but that's about it. |
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The same BS thinking is pervasive in the military. Any M16s or M4s at my unit in long term storage are placed on fire with the hammer uncocked because they think it makes the springs last longer True. They also think that a weapon cocked and on "safe" is safer than a weapon with the hammer down and not on "safe" . That said the military always stores their mags unloaded and they are loaded as needed. Once you arrive in a combat zone trhey are loaded and not unloadede until used which might be a year or more. |
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I'm running a test at home. I have 2 pmags that have been loaded since 2009. I'll give them a try in 2013. Loaded for 4 years should provide some good info.  Similar tests have been going on since at least as far back as WWII...so far the general consensus is it won't harm the springs at all. Some mags of various designs have had feed lips to spread, cracks form, etc., but the springs seem to hold up fine. Keep us posted as to your results. |
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The springs on every automobile suspension... are ALWAYS in compression from the moment they come off the assembly line. Just sitting there they don't wear out. Constant use from driving over all sorts of roads and terrain, where the shocks and springs compress and decompress, is what wears them out. How many gazillion automobiles out there? THIS should put this question to rest.
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The springs on every automobile suspension... are ALWAYS in compression from the moment they come off the assembly line. Just sitting there they don't wear out. Constant use from driving over all sorts of roads and terrain, where the shocks and springs compress and decompress, is what wears them out. How many gazillion automobiles out there? THIS should put this question to rest. Every magazine spring (as well as every other spring in the rifle) is in constant compression too. Even unloaded/uncocked/whatever. Unless one pops the floorplates off the mags to let the springs all the way out to full length, removes the action spring, and pops out the hammer and trigger to let those springs relax as well, there's always something under stress. If it won't kill the mag to leave it assembled and unloaded it won't kill the mag to load it. |
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I hate this subject. So much fail... You all arent all right and hes not all wrong...
Mags are useless unless loaded, so load the ones you may need. Leave them loaded, you dont need to cycle them. Repeated compression of the springs accelerates wear. Leave the rest empty. The car spring... *sigh* i promise you those springs will sag eventually too, even if it just sits there. Put books on a bookcase and its straight, years later its sagging. No one can say having no pressure on the spring vs having lots of pressure on the spring is the same thing. Its not... No way, no how, nope. They will wear out faster. Take 2 rubber bands, leave one loose and stretch one tight... The tight one will dry rot and fall apart first. Guaranteed. Every single time. The catch is, its not enough to matter because youre talking about a time on the mag spring measured in years..... Some of us will be dead and gone before it matters. But as a matter of prudence, keep your shtf stash loaded and the ones for the next mag ban empty and like new for a far away rainy day.... |
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The car spring... *sigh* i promise you those springs will sag eventually too, even if it just sits there. Put books on a bookcase and its straight, years later its sagging. No one can say having no pressure on the spring vs having lots of pressure on the spring is the same thing. Its not... No way, no how, nope. They will wear out faster. Take 2 rubber bands, leave one loose and stretch one tight... The tight one will dry rot and fall apart first. Guaranteed. Every single time.. You cant be serious. Magazine springs are not made of wood or rubber. They will not hold moisture and become pliable, they will not dry rot. The only thing they could possibly do is rust. Your analogy is just really really wrong. Steel doesn't work that way. |
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The car spring... *sigh* i promise you those springs will sag eventually too, even if it just sits there. Put books on a bookcase and its straight, years later its sagging. No one can say having no pressure on the spring vs having lots of pressure on the spring is the same thing. Its not... No way, no how, nope. They will wear out faster. Take 2 rubber bands, leave one loose and stretch one tight... The tight one will dry rot and fall apart first. Guaranteed. Every single time.. You cant be serious. Magazine springs are not made of wood or rubber. They will not hold moisture and become pliable, they will not dry rot. The only thing they could possibly do is rust. Your analogy is just really really wrong. Steel doesn't work that way. Again so much fail. Yes they will attract and absorb moisture and rust as you said...and simply changing the temperature of steel can can completely change its physical properties. It is a black and white explanation. read it. and understand it. Put any substance under pressure and it will react differently than not under pressure. How do you think your girls jewels were made dude? You think coal will become a ruby sitting on your coffee table? The question though, as i said isnt is there a difference.. Because there is and ill only be an ass to anyone who says otherwise, it is simply does it matter... Which i clearly stated in most cases is no. |
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I hate this subject. So much fail... You all arent all right and hes not all wrong... Mags are useless unless loaded, so load the ones you may need. Leave them loaded, you dont need to cycle them. Repeated compression of the springs accelerates wear. Leave the rest empty. The car spring... *sigh* i promise you those springs will sag eventually too, even if it just sits there. Put books on a bookcase and its straight, years later its sagging. No one can say having no pressure on the spring vs having lots of pressure on the spring is the same thing. Its not... No way, no how, nope. They will wear out faster. Take 2 rubber bands, leave one loose and stretch one tight... The tight one will dry rot and fall apart first. Guaranteed. Every single time. The catch is, its not enough to matter because youre talking about a time on the mag spring measured in years..... Some of us will be dead and gone before it matters. But as a matter of prudence, keep your shtf stash loaded and the ones for the next mag ban empty and like new for a far away rainy day.... This. Thank you /thread |
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An unloaded mag is completely useless. Yes While on duty I have 10 mags loaded and ready to go. I don't cycle them. I just keep them loaded. 10 more at home loaded. I have at last count over 200 30rnd AR mags. 180 of those are as stated above empty and therefore useless. That is until I need to load them all.
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Originally Posted By "Absolutely Clueless":
An unloaded mag is completely useless. Really? Then why do you buy them? 
Or are they already loaded when you buy them?
Otherwise, you're spending your hard earned dollars on something "worthless". 
I keep several mags loaded in each platform I have here, be it rifle or pistol. All the rest are kept empty. If I need to load them quickly, well that's what stripper clips ands peed loaders are for. (That's actually why they call them that.)
I just went in and looked over most of my empty mags, and for the life of me they just don't look "worthless" for some reason. Nope, they simply look empty, or more like "unloaded". But they do look quite valuable....at least to my untrained eye. If I lived in an area where I felt I need more than six or eight loaded rifle mags, I think I'd be more interested in looking for a new area to live than "how long can I keep my mags loaded".
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| In respect to springs, I would be more concerned about excess heat (which is not likely) in a magazine, stretching beyond its design limits (probably not possible unless you took it out and did it intentionally), or compression beyond its design limits (again, something hard to do unless you try to do it). |
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Springs are designed to work within a certain tolerance range of motion/compression. They dont "load"... as is.. the pressure on the spring is not much "harder" with 30 rounds loaded, as it is with 20 rounds loaded... or no rounds loaded. The spring was designed to compress & "work" within a certain range. Take it out of this range by overloading, or stretching the spring, and you kill it.
What degrades the steel, over time, is fatigue from cycling the spring. The magazine spring is already compressed... just sitting there in an unloaded magazine. If you want a REAL analogy... go to the local gun store, pick up a 40 year old shotgun off the rack.. or a 80 year old.. and try the mag spring with your finger. Still got pressure? Compressed for all these years??? Yup.. the vast majority do. What fails.. and caused this "myth"... is bad spring design or manufacture.... bad/cheap materials used which could not hold spec.... and the occassional feed lip issue. Bad design would be sharp corners for fatigue to set in (rectangular design), versus a coil, which has not point to focus fatigue. A modern, high quality magazine and spring design... fully loaded... will last just as long, and retain just as much power, and the same magazine unloaded. Oh.. and older car springs, made from older materials, may sag... after decades of use. Never seen a brand new 40 year old car we could test... but most of my antique cars have great original springs. Low milage cars usually do. and yes.. I used to make springs on Shinko machines... |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The car spring... *sigh* i promise you those springs will sag eventually too, even if it just sits there. Put books on a bookcase and its straight, years later its sagging. No one can say having no pressure on the spring vs having lots of pressure on the spring is the same thing. Its not... No way, no how, nope. They will wear out faster. Take 2 rubber bands, leave one loose and stretch one tight... The tight one will dry rot and fall apart first. Guaranteed. Every single time.. You cant be serious. Magazine springs are not made of wood or rubber. They will not hold moisture and become pliable, they will not dry rot. The only thing they could possibly do is rust. Your analogy is just really really wrong. Steel doesn't work that way. Again so much fail. Yes they will attract and absorb moisture and rust as you said...and simply changing the temperature of steel can can completely change its physical properties. It is a black and white explanation. read it. and understand it. Put any substance under pressure and it will react differently than not under pressure. How do you think your girls jewels were made dude? You think coal will become a ruby sitting on your coffee table? The question though, as i said isnt is there a difference.. Because there is and ill only be an ass to anyone who says otherwise, it is simply does it matter... Which i clearly stated in most cases is no. A spring which is properly designed for the application, which includes coatings/meterials/manufacturing proccess, will not degrade or sag or loose strength until it has reached it's cyclic limit. This means it can't be over compressed or decompressed, the coatings must be suitable to prevent corrosion and the material must be properly selected to retain the desired properties for the application. Automotive valve springs are an excellent example to look at and there's tons of reasearch out there on it. Wes (Who's been shooting 3 Colt 1911\3 Kimber 1911\4 Willson Combat 1911\8 Glock\12 AR15\5 10-22\3 870 shotgun mags that are kept loaded since 2003. Those mags have have all had over 500 rounds through each...most of the AR15 mags are in the 1000+ range each. Hell some of my 10-22 mags have been constantly loaded since 1992!) |
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There is more to this subject than to say it doesn't harm or weaken the spring to keep the mag loaded. There are many types of steel used to manufacture springs and they all have different properties, strengths and weaknesses. IF the spring in your mag is of the proper material for the application then yes it shouldn't weaken by being compressed for a long time. I recently unloaded 3 P12 Para Ordnance mags that had been loaded for at least ten years. I noticed as I was pushing the rounds from the mags unloading them that the last 2-3 didn't have the same pressure pushing them up as the rest. I removed the springs and compared their length to some new springs and they were about 20% shorter. Would they still function? Well I put them back together and loaded them up to find out. Two of the three were fine but one stovepiped with two rounds to go. Was it the spring? Most likely since this gun doesn't usually have this type of malfunction. I replaced the springs with new ones to be safe. Notice the Properties of springs steels and the columns for Fatigue and Strength in the link below. Not all mag springs are made of the best type of spring steel for the application, some are used because they cost less. I trust my Colt mil spec and my PMags to be just fine to leave loaded...not so sure about a few ProMags and other "off" brand mags I own to do the same. http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/support-files/spring_materials_typical_properties0001.pdf While I do agree it's fine to leave them loaded, there are exceptions and it's not possible to say that it's fine for all mags since they may or may not have the best springs in them. |
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Din't know where these people get their info, just cause they have 25 years of experience and say "I am a professional gunrighter" they know everything there is to know. Call BS on them. Makes me kring when i hear this stuff. Keep them loaded! Not worth a nickle if they aren't. Replace springs if necessary, just part of maintenance. Springs loose power from work stress, not from sitting. If they do they wern't any goods to start with!
Quoted:
Every magazine I own is loaded. AR, AK, FAL, Pistols, all of them. I keep them all loaded because they're only useful if they're loaded. The only time they're not loaded is the time between my firing them empty and reloading them. I've always understood the truth to be that compression and extension (use of the magazine) wears the springs, not prolonged compression. In the November issue of American Rifleman (page 47), Reid coffield opines that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months." This runs contrary to what I've believed / practiced for years. I have thousands of rounds loaded in magazines...many in ammo cans for semi-permanent storage. Of course I know that just because it's in a gun rag don't make it so. Are there any engineers in here that can weigh in on this topic...again... |
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While I do agree it's fine to leave them loaded, there are exceptions and it's not possible to say that it's fine for all mags since they may or may not have the best springs in them. Undoubtedly, but then again, if one has any question about the quality of the magazines, then said person bought the wrong magazines. AR mags of known good quality are cheap enough that it makes less than no sense to buy something that could well be iffy. New springs are inexpensive enough and easy to refit. Or just get new mags and be done with it. |
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Quoted: Din't know where these people get their info, just cause they have 25 years of experience and say "I am a professional gunrighter" they know everything there is to know. Call BS on them. Makes me kring when i hear this stuff. Keep them loaded! Not worth a nickle if they aren't. Replace springs if necessary, just part of maintenance. Springs loose power from work stress, not from sitting. If they do they wern't any goods to start with! Quoted: Every magazine I own is loaded. AR, AK, FAL, Pistols, all of them. I keep them all loaded because they're only useful if they're loaded. The only time they're not loaded is the time between my firing them empty and reloading them. I've always understood the truth to be that compression and extension (use of the magazine) wears the springs, not prolonged compression. In the November issue of American Rifleman (page 47), Reid coffield opines that "springs will lose their strength over time if left in a compressed state", and that "the prudent course of action is to ratate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months." This runs contrary to what I've believed / practiced for years. I have thousands of rounds loaded in magazines...many in ammo cans for semi-permanent storage. Of course I know that just because it's in a gun rag don't make it so. Are there any engineers in here that can weigh in on this topic...again... What do you base you expertise on? Are you a metallurgist? Have you conducted studies on this subject to know for certain that your opinion is absolutely correct? Just wondering. And why would a guy like me that owns 70+ AR mags need to keep them all loaded? If I ever need to fire 2100 rounds in one fight then it was was hell of a day and I must have some real good cover. And I would be in a fixed position since I couldn't carry that many with me. I keep ten loaded since I doubt I would ever need more than 300 rounds without any time to reload them and I can carry that many. |
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I can only offer anecdotal evidence; my AR mag timecapsule story. I have three Colt 20 rd mags (AF contract from 1968) that my grandfather gave me in 2003. They were in an unopened package that he sent to himself that was date stamped 1970. He bought them at a gun shop while on business travel, and sent them to himself because he did not want to take them on the airplane. He ended up never using them because his SP1 ended up stolen when he got back home. Anyway, he was giving me some gun stuff, saw the box, cracked it open, and all three mags were loaded with 20 rounds of ball ammo with 1970 headstamps. The mags had to have been loaded for 33 years. Not only was the ammo still good, all three mags fed the ammo flawlessly. I have since used the mags numerous times, and frequently leave them loaded for extended periods. I have never had an issue with these or any other mags I leave loaded to include the mags I keep loaded for my issued M4 (they have been loaded in between qualifications for the past 3 years), and my pistol magazines. I know there are some that feel uncomfortable with it, but I am convinced storing mags loaded does not weaken the springs.
If you take a paperclip, which has little to no tempering, it can hold papers together with a slight amount of tension for a very long time. It can only weaken if you flex it back and forth. This will eventually cause it to break. I don't think a spring is any different. Under compression, it is static and cannot fatigue unless it is repeatedly compressed and decompressed. |
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My only argument to this debate is,.......................
What good is an unloaded magazine? If somebody comes to do some plundering at your residence at 0330 (yes, plundering, they are pirates) and you grab an AR, AK, etc.. and throw in an empty mag in and they fire at you, well, atleast you have a good club I guess. Seriously, loaded mags are fine and dandy. My AR is always loaded. Complete 30 round Pmag and an open bolt. One slap of a bolt release and I can get a job done. Only issue you can run into is if a child or whoever of the same IQ, gets into that stuff and does damage. Well, look after your shit and make sure its somewhere nobody will mess with it but still close if you need it. Yar, that be my 2 gold doubloons. 
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What good is an unloaded magazine? If somebody comes to do some plundering at your residence at 0330 (yes, plundering, they are pirates) and you grab an AR, AK, etc.. and throw in an empty mag in and they fire at you, well, atleast you have a good club I guess. I don't think anyone is advocating the practice of keeping all their mags empty....that's just silly. Keep enough loaded to handle any foreseen need, but keeping every mag owned loaded full time is not necessary. Like I said, I keep a half dozen or so AR mags loaded, and four AK mags loaded, as well as some for the handguns. But all the rest are stored high, dry, and empty. Quoted:
Seriously, loaded mags are fine and dandy. My AR is always loaded. Complete 30 round Pmag and an open bolt. One slap of a bolt release and I can get a job done. In my opinion, this is a very bad practice. If that weapon falls or is dropped even slightly on the buttstock, it will chamber a round....not a safe condition at all. Much safer to chamber the first round and keep the safety on. |
| I know that I have had a Magazine from a Sig Sauer pistol that I have always left loaded for years.... but haven't shot in some time. Went out and fired it the other day, and the slide wouldn't lock back after the last round fired. Found that the magazine spring was not strong enough to activate the slide lock. This magazine had probably 200 rounds fired from it in the past... so something happened to the spring while remaining loaded all these years. |
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I know that I have had a Magazine from a Sig Sauer pistol that I have always left loaded for years.... but haven't shot in some time. Went out and fired it the other day, and the slide wouldn't lock back after the last round fired. Found that the magazine spring was not strong enough to activate the slide lock. This magazine had probably 200 rounds fired from it in the past... so something happened to the spring while remaining loaded all these years. FWIW, I had the same issue, then I noticed that due to my big hands, my thumb was keeping the slide lock down. You may want to run that same mag and pay attention to your thumb location. People tend to pay more attention to those small details when diagnosing an issue than they would if they were just running the gun. |
| Mags that are not still New in Package, are loaded. Yes I live in the sticks, but you cant really see driveway from inside house to much, and you cant see who is walking to front door. Within a short distance, there is 500 rds loaded in Pmags ready to rock and roll. They have been loaded since the day I bought them and the last time I found a deal was back in 2009. |
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My only argument to this debate is,....................... What good is an unloaded magazine? If somebody comes to do some plundering at your residence at 0330 (yes, plundering, they are pirates) and you grab an AR, AK, etc.. and throw in an empty mag in and they fire at you, well, atleast you have a good club I guess. Seriously, loaded mags are fine and dandy. My AR is always loaded. Complete 30 round Pmag and an open bolt. One slap of a bolt release and I can get a job done. Only issue you can run into is if a child or whoever of the same IQ, gets into that stuff and does damage. Well, look after your shit and make sure its somewhere nobody will mess with it but still close if you need it. Yar, that be my 2 gold doubloons. THe discussion is about long term storage of multiple magazines. I think anyone here can figure out that mags for defense or duty need to be loaded
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.....I think anyone here can figure out that mags for defense or duty need to be loaded....... I would like to think the same, but apparently I'd be wrong in that assumption......... Unless they're deliberately missing the point, which could be the case I suppose.....but who knows? I think the general consensus is keeping quality mags loaded indefinitely poses no risk of damage to the springs. This has been demonstrated repeatedly by manufacturer testing as well as user testing over many, many years. If you're using inferior mags then who knows, but stick with known quality and it should be fine. And if the "empty mag is useless" crowd really believes this diatribe, then they shouldn't buy empty mags. .
Or empty firearms for that matter, which should be considered equally "useless". That should make them feel much better. .
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