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Posted: 1/20/2023 6:40:57 PM EDT
Krieger AR-15 Barrels: A Quick Look I typically purchase my stainless steel Krieger AR-15 barrels directly from Krieger Barrels, Inc and have them do the chamber, port and finish etc. Krieger utilizes a four land/groove arrangement and it is known by many that Krieger’s single point cut rifling is superb.. Krieger’s 416 stainless steel barrels receive an in-house cryogenic treatment and are twice hand-lapped; once after reaming and again after rifling. The .224” Krieger AR-15 barrels have a land to land diameter of 0.218” which reportedly helps maintain accuracy for longer intervals in between cleaning. I’ve owned 16”, 20” and 24” Krieger AR-15 barrels. I’ve owned Krieger AR-15 barrels with 1:9” twists and 1:7.7” twists. I’ve owned Krieger AR-15 barrels with 223 Remington and 5.56 Match chambers. Every Krieger AR-15 barrel that I’ve owned has produced 10-shot groups with extreme spreads of less than ¾ MOA. 24" barrel . . .  20" barrel . . .  16" barrel . . .                     ...... |
| As always, excellent information, Molon. One quick question: Do they make medium-contour barrels? That 16" SS barrel looks pretty hefty (I'm sure @Micap would love it, though!), but understand that these Krieger barrels are more for accuracy/precision builds than bullet hoses. |
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Great groups....those would tighten up with a higher power scope and trigger...I have a Leupold 45X on my custom .22 10 X3 lug action with a muller eight groove barrel. It's in a Mcmilan straight-line edge stock. Trigger is a little less than 6oz. I know apples to oranges |
Here is a 10 shot group I did while sighting in followed by a 5 shot group once dialed in at 100 yards. Like I previously said it's apples to oranges and the AR platform can't compete with a world class benchrest rifle nor was it ever expected too. The rest, the rifle, the scope, and trigger make it possible. Last pic is my rifle that won the world championship with Bob Barnhart as the shooter that time. I am the one who shot these targets. I didn't post his.  
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Quoted: Here is a 10 shot group I did while sighting in followed by a 5 shot group once dialed in at 100 yards. Like I previously said it's apples to oranges and the AR platform can't compete with a world class benchrest rifle nor was it ever expected too. The rest, the rifle, the scope, and trigger make it possible. When you're done posting completely irrelevant shit, post pics of your 10-shot groups fired from a center-fire semi-automatic AR-15 that "tightened up with a higher power scope and trigger" compared to the groups I posted. ..... |
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Quoted: When you're done posting completely irrelevant shit, post pics of your 10-shot groups fired from a center-fire semi-automatic AR-15 that "tightened up with a higher power scope and trigger" compared to the groups I posted. ..... Your funny! It wasn't irrelevant. I was trying to tell you why not try a higher powered scope and a better trigger and then post YOUR new pics with groups that are better than the last groups you shot ( which are great by the way). I also said from the beginning that it would be apples to oranges but you had to post a Taylor Swift gif so I put up my pics too...and again saying apples to oranges...LOL. You shot great groups that would indeed be EVEN better with a higher powered scope and even a better trigger. I did make a mistake and retested my trigger...it is at 3oz not just under 6oz....instead of being a jackass why don't you try it...you might like the new results...I literally was showing you that a higher powered scope and better trigger would tighten your groups even more... |
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Quoted: Your funny! It wasn't irrelevant. I was trying to tell you why not try a higher powered scope and a better trigger and then post YOUR new pics with groups that are better than the last groups you shot ( which are great by the way). I also said from the beginning that it would be apples to oranges but you had to post a Taylor Swift gif so I put up my pics too...and again saying apples to oranges...LOL. You shot great groups that would indeed be EVEN better with a higher powered scope and even a better trigger. I did make a mistake and retested my trigger...it is at 3oz not just under 6oz....instead of being a jackass why don't you try it...you might like the new results...I literally was showing you that a higher powered scope and better trigger would tighten your groups even more... This is an AR topic, bro. This isn't the place for apples to oranges. Show your centerfire AR15 groups with a high powered scope and light trigger. And I'm pretty sure his testing uses high powered scopes and great triggers. |
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Quoted: This is an AR topic, bro. This isn't the place for apples to oranges. Show your centerfire AR15 groups with a high powered scope and light trigger. And I'm pretty sure his testing uses high powered scopes and great triggers. No shit....if you look at his scopes they are not high powered enough for what he is doing. His groups are impressive and would be even better with a different scope and a different trigger...and most likely a different rest....Everyone in precision shooting knows what a higher powered scope and lighter trigger can do...everyone My Noveske Afghan can compete with those groups...Kreiger makes GREAT barrels. |
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Quoted: if you look at his scopes they are not high powered enough for what he is doing. His groups are impressive and would be even better with a different scope and a different trigger...and most likely a different rest....Everyone in precision shooting knows what a higher powered scope and lighter trigger can do...everyone. My Noveske Afghan can compete with those groups Obtuse much?  |
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Quoted: Here is a 10 shot group I did while sighting in followed by a 5 shot group once dialed in at 100 yards. Like I previously said it's apples to oranges and the AR platform can't compete with a world class benchrest rifle nor was it ever expected too. The rest, the rifle, the scope, and trigger make it possible. Last pic is my rifle that won the world championship with Bob Barnhart as the shooter that time. I am the one who shot these targets. I didn't post his. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/10shot-2680494.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/5shot-2680496.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/Benchrest-2680498.jpg please stop |
 Waiting in line be like |
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Quoted: Here is a 10 shot group I did while sighting in followed by a 5 shot group once dialed in at 100 yards. Like I previously said it's apples to oranges and the AR platform can't compete with a world class benchrest rifle nor was it ever expected too. The rest, the rifle, the scope, and trigger make it possible. Last pic is my rifle that won the world championship with Bob Barnhart as the shooter that time. I am the one who shot these targets. I didn't post his. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/10shot-2680494.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/5shot-2680496.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57815/Benchrest-2680498.jpg 1. This is an AR-15 thread, not a bench rest thread. 2. If you have ever followed Molon's posts you would understand he does use a 24X target scope when testing ammo for his articles. He usually cuts and pastes all the specifics, but avoided doing so in this one article. 3. He also uses match grade triggers in his lowers, usually a Geissele trigger. 4. AR-15's are incapable of using a 3 to 6 oz. trigger for safety reasons. 5. AR-15's shoot great but were never designed for bench shooting. It's a combat/law enforcement/personal defense rifle. 6. Try running your BR rifle on a combat rifle course, I'll wait on your times and scores. |
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gqllc - do you have any idea how impressive sub 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups are with an AR15? I really can't think of anyone else who can claim better results and then posts the targets to prove it. I'm happy when I shoot 1 MOA five shot groups. And as someone else has pointed out, with an AR, you really can't put in a sub 1#trigger for safety reasons. Finally, if you're shooting at targets 100 yards away not sure a 35X scope makes much sense either. Personally, find that shooting at black dots that are 1/2" or smaller does more to improve my accuracy than a super high powered scope. Of course, I'd love to see how well your method is working for you. Post some targets. |
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Quoted: gqllc - do you have any idea how impressive sub 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups are with an AR15? I really can't think of anyone else who can claim better results and then posts the targets to prove it. I'm happy when I shoot 1 MOA five shot groups. And as someone else has pointed out, with an AR, you really can't put in a sub 1#trigger for safety reasons. Finally, if you're shooting at targets 100 yards away not sure a 35X scope makes much sense either. Personally, find that shooting at black dots that are 1/2" or smaller does more to improve my accuracy than a super high powered scope. Of course, I'd love to see how well your method is working for you. Post some targets. Of course I know how impressive it is....I never said it wasn't....not once. I use Bartlein barrels in my precision AR and they shoot similar to Kriegers If Molon is chasing the tightest groups he can possibly do which it looks like he is then even though his groups are amazing he can tighten them up even more. There is always room for improvement. BUT I NEVER EVER SAID HIS GROUPS WERENT AMAZING......He could use a better rest system. A better tuned trigger, and higher powered optics. When I went to a super high power scope (45X) my groups tightened up dramatically. Now all my friends are using 60X and more. Nothing I said isn't common knowledge. If Molon isn't chasing tightest groups then I stand corrected...When you talk to some of the worlds best shooters (not me) I tend to listen to what thy have to say and decide for myself what I want to do next. "In addition, there’s no doubt that high magnification lets you aim more precisely, no matter what the distance. Even at 100 and 200 yards, short-range benchresters are using 40X, 50X, and even 60X power scopes. This allows you to position your cross-hairs with extreme precision — something you need when you’re trying to put multiple shots through the same hole". Molon is clearly bench resting his AR and doing a great job but make no mistake he is bench resting. https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/01/worlds-highest-magnification-rifle-scope-march-8-80x56mm/ |
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gqllc - not going to get into a pissing contest with you, so let's just say we agree to disagree on this. While I suppose the statement that "there's always room for improvement" is theoretically true, as a practical matter there's a point where that statement becomes almost meaningless. So yeah, unless you are shooting 100 shot groups through a single hole, any 5 or 10 shot groups can theoretically be improved upon by a more accurate barrel, better, ammo, better technique, etc. But you are going to start bumping up against the limits of what you can achieve with a projectile being launched through a rifled barrel long before that. No AR is so perfect that with the right ammo it is capable of .00001 MOA. No hand loaded ammo is so consistent that is can achieve no variation in the point of impact if shot through the right barrel. And no shooter is so absolutely perfect that he is able to completely take himself out of the equation. In my experience, having seen an awful lot of people posting their 5 or 10 shot groupings, shooting sub .5 MOA 10 shot groups out an AR is approaching the limits of what an AR, ammo and a shooter are capable of. In other words, as a practical matter, there really is no room for improvement, or at the very least the incremental room for improvement is so small as to be essentially meaningless. In particular, I think you are operating from the basic fallacy that bigger is always better. If a 20x scope is good, a 40x scope must be better, and a 400x scope better still. And really at some point even you must acknowledge that this is no longer true. Would anyone want to use a 4,000x scope if such a thing were available. How about a 400,000x scope? Just imagine how precisely you could aim then. How about a trigger that breaks at 1/10 oz? As someone who has spent a fair amount of time shooting from the bench, I find that a 20x scope is all I really need to consistently place the crosshairs in the same spot time after time. I suppose if I have a 60x scope, I could eliminate a couple of hundredths of an inch variation in where I'm putting the crosshairs, but isn't that a pretty meaningless improvement? Won't a 1 mile variation in wind speed between my first and last shot have more of an impact on my groups? BTW - the link you posted spends most of its time talking about long distance shooting, i.e. 500-1500 yards. And certainly, if you're shooting for groups at 1000 yards, I don't disagree that a 40x or maybe even a 60x scope will improve those groups. Of course a 40x scope at 1000 yards is analogous to using a 4x scope at 100 yards. |
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Quoted: I learned something today. Thanks OP. I too have also learned that I need to stop reading after Molon's OP. Molon is great for this site, those trying to one up with oranges vs apples or argumentative of him yet don't do the reviews he does to provide a valid counterpoint, not so much. |
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My Krieger service rifle barrel is a 1 moa barrel. 1:7.7 twist. I have a lot of other barrels that were cheaper and shoot better, sometimes it's the luck of the draw. It is impossible to make any claims about barrel quality when you are dealing with a sample of one. I own Bartlein, Krieger, Wilson, Wilson Combat, Noveske, Lothar-Walther, Hart, Douglas, Shilen, Lilja, Pac-Nor, Shaw and a couple other's I can't recall. Every single one of them have been "acceptable". I require 1 moa at a minimum. I can work with 1 moa out to any reasonable distance. I own several factory rack grade chrome lined barrels that shoot .75 moa, again, the luck of the draw. Match grade bullets make all the difference in the world. Hornady's 55 grain FMJ/SP offerings are the cheapest good bullets on the market, but getting 1 moa, or better, probably will not happen. 52/53 grain match bullets really shine at 100 yards regardless of twist rate. 68 to 77's are needed for mid-ramge or further. |
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Quoted: Sell them even better if he had a 100x scope and a negative 3 oz trigger on there. Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for another great post Molon. Those pics sell Krieger barrels better than any gimmick could Sell them even better if he had a 100x scope and a negative 3 oz trigger on there. 
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Quoted: Thats it? I was expecting better groups. That's it on my sample of one. I have not fine tuned loads for this particular upper. After extensive testing across numerous rifles, I have settled on 24.5 grains of Varget and 69 grain SMK's seated 2.250" as my reference load. It "averaged" the best groups across a wide variety of 2.23/5.56 rifles, achieving 1 moa or better from virtually every rifle I tested it in. The testing was extensive and included everything from a 26" bolt action to a 16" Colt H-BAR, this Varget load shot better than any other powder combination "on average" than anything else I tried. I tried a lot. I bet I shot close 2000 rounds trying various powder combinations and shooting 10 round groups. I own more than a few rifles in this caliber. I wanted to develop a load that would work well in any of them. Could the Krieger do better? I'm betting I could get smaller groups if I wanted to develop a load just for it. As already stated, I spent most of one summer load testing various powder combinations using the 69 grain SMK and ended up settling on the 24.5 grain Varget load as a keeper. 52/53 grain match bullets have been the most accurate from all my rifles, but, once you get past a couple hundred yards the wind plays hell with them. 75/77 grain bullets have better long range ballistics, but I could never get them to shoot better than the 69's. |
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