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Posted: 12/19/2013 7:52:10 AM EDT
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Although I am a long time owner of firearms, I am new to reloading. I decided to reload as a hobby. I have the Lee Classic Hand loader for .223 Remington (not the press). I am using Federal Brass that was once fired from my AR-15 to do the reloads. For this reload I used IMR 3031 with Nosler Armageddon 55 grain bullet with CCI #41 Primers. I started loading 22 grains of powder with .5 increments all the way up to 24 grains. I have bushmaster AR-15 (top and bottom) with 1:9 twist.
Yesterday as I was firing my reloads at the range, I started off with 22 grains. I found out the OAL of the ammo was over 2.260 which did not allow me to put the reloaded ammo into the magazine. I was only able to put one directly into the chamber, and one into the magazine. Of course I closed the bolt and then put the magazine so that I would not get a double feed. The very first 2 shots of 22 grains fired off with no problems. So I tried the next 2 rounds of 22 grains. As I tried to close the bolt, the bolt would not fully close. I used the forward assist and it would not still budge! The live round was stuck! I carefully separated the top and bottom and got my cleaning rod and started tapping gently. It wouldn't budge, so I started hitting it more violently while a friend tried pulling the charging handle. I broke my 3 piece cleaning rod but finally after battling for 5 minutes the live round came out and the force of me slamming the rod made the bullet go completely into the brass. I checked the brass and there seems nothing wrong with the brass. No dents, no scratch markings. What is causing this? Is it the long OAL of the reload? I am guessing this is due to resizing the brass. What did I do wrong? Since I am using a hand loader, I do not lube my casing. Can this be the cause? I read somewhere that not bumping the shoulder far enough causes this problem. What does that mean? Is this the main cause? How can I prevent this? Is there a technique to hand loading (not using the press) to get it right? Can someone please explain this to me in an elementary way 'cause I am such a newbie to reloading. Thanks in advance! |
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You need to get a reloading manual and read it.
You are NOT ready to reload at all, because you don't understand reloading principles. You should have never loaded a single round. Seriously... the best advice I have for you is to get a reloading manual, or several, and READ them. If you don't understand the shoulder dimensions, and you "find out" your COAL without setting your COAL, then you have zero business reloading until you get properly educated. This is not "trial and error" business. 
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Quoted:
You need to get a reloading manual and read it. You are NOT ready to reload at all, because you don't understand reloading principles. You should have never loaded a single round. Seriously... the best advice I have for you is to get a reloading manual, or several, and READ them. If you don't understand the shoulder dimensions, and you "find out" your COAL without setting your COAL, then you have zero business reloading until you get properly educated. This is not "trial and error" business. agree entirely. Those little handloaders should come with warnings to only be used by experienced loaders. I have heard of way too many accidents involving those and new loaders. |
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Where to begin.
First off this probably needs to be in the reloading forum as that's most critically where you need assistance. Quoted:
I found out the OAL of the ammo was over 2.260 which did not allow me to put the reloaded ammo into the magazine. I was only able to put one directly into the chamber, and one into the magazine. This is bad, if the round can't fit correctly into the magazine you shouldn't try to feed it from a magazine. Of course I closed the bolt and then put the magazine so that I would not get a double feed. The very first 2 shots of 22 grains fired off with no problems. So I tried the next 2 rounds of 22 grains. As I tried to close the bolt, the bolt would not fully close. I used the forward assist and it would not still budge! Never use the forward assist to force closed the bolt carrier/bolt. And I should add, never use it to force the bolt closed. Hopefully that's clear. The live round was stuck! I carefully separated the top and bottom and got my cleaning rod and started tapping gently. It wouldn't budge, so I started hitting it more violently while a friend tried pulling the charging handle. I broke my 3 piece cleaning rod but finally after battling for 5 minutes the live round came out and the force of me slamming the rod made the bullet go completely into the brass. Almost certainly you could have just "mortared" the rifle and saved yourself a lot of trouble, barrel and crown damage, etc. I checked the brass and there seems nothing wrong with the brass. No dents, no scratch markings. What is causing this? Is it the long OAL of the reload? I am guessing this is due to resizing the brass. What did I do wrong? Since I am using a hand loader, I do not lube my casing. Can this be the cause? This is why it needs to be in reloading probably. A little extra OAL probably shouldn't do this, so its probably a sizing issue. I read somewhere that not bumping the shoulder far enough causes this problem. What does that mean? Is this the main cause? How can I prevent this? Is there a technique to hand loading (not using the press) to get it right? Can someone please explain this to me in an elementary way 'cause I am such a newbie to reloading. Thanks in advance! I'm not a reloading guru but sounds to me like you need some work on your sizing technique and some testing with a sizing test gauge. |
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Quoted:
You need to get a reloading manual and read it. You are NOT ready to reload at all, because you don't understand reloading principles. You should have never loaded a single round. Seriously... the best advice I have for you is to get a reloading manual, or several, and READ them. If you don't understand the shoulder dimensions, and you "find out" your COAL without setting your COAL, then you have zero business reloading until you get properly educated. This is not "trial and error" business. Meh, what's the worst that could happen? 
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My opinion is the brass, even only once-fired, has grown too large for the chamber and the neck is probably touching the rifling. This forces the neck into the bullet and will over-pressure the round.
Based on my experience I have found I must: 1) resize the brass every time to the small spec in the reloading manual 2)after resizing check every round in a case gauge and sort out the ones that need to be trimmed 3) trim those that need it to the small spec 4) spot check the trimmed brass to ensure the trimmer didn't move on you 5) throw away any cases that don't look "right" 6) prime, powder and bullet as per the manual 7) check the oal with a micrometer with the specs in the reloading manual. Semi-autos have no forgiveness for improperly sized brass. If you are not willing to take the proper steps to reload. Don't do it. Don't risk your gun or your fucking life to save $.15 per round. I value my hands arms face and life too much to be cheap and lazy. |
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If you were shooting 80 grain bullets, tehn single load, but why are you running 55's that long? Anyhow, how long is your brass? Did you check, or trim it? The bullet that I got has a polymer tip on it that makes the bullet sharp and longer. I did measure the OAL and it was 2.580. But it was still touching the wall of the magazine. I checked and trimmed, deburred and chamferred all my rounds. |
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Quoted:
You need to get a reloading manual and read it. You are NOT ready to reload at all, because you don't understand reloading principles. You should have never loaded a single round. Seriously... the best advice I have for you is to get a reloading manual, or several, and READ them. If you don't understand the shoulder dimensions, and you "find out" your COAL without setting your COAL, then you have zero business reloading until you get properly educated. This is not "trial and error" business. I did read the manual. It is not the hundred of pages long manual. I got one off online and read it. My question is how come the die did not set the shoulder dimension correctly? |
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Thanks for your help. I do agree that the issue is the resizing of the brass. I thought that is what the die is suppose to do--resize it to the correct specs. Is it a technique problem? Do I need to measure every resized brass, to make sure it is within the ok specs? |
| A lot of those hand loading dies are geared more towards bolt action. Autoloaders are not at all as forgiving as bolt actions when it comes to case sizing. If you wish to reload For a specific caliber you should buy a case gauge so that way you can check each case. |
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1. Use lube. All bottleneck rifle cases require lube or you will stick the case. For small lots I am a fan of imperial wax. Using a handloader has no impact on this.
2. Set the die correctly. They must be set according to manufacturer specs, and most are designed to be turned down fully against the shell plate in order to get a full length resize. Make sure you are using a full length resizing die. I set mine to overcame just a tad, and that would be very hard to do with those cheap hand presses. I recommend spending the $100 and getting a decent single stage bench mount press. I recommend RCBS. Lee leaves a lot to be desired. 3. Get a case gauge. For every caliber you load for. Gauge every single cartridge you load, especially when new. When you have 5 years or more behind you, consider lot gauging. 4. Don't "discover" the OAL. This is as critical of a dimension as all others. You don't "discover" they are a certain length, you SET the length by adjusting your seating die. Max length for magazine is 2.260". Reliable feeding is 2.250". I don't give a damn what kind of plastic tips you are using, that doesn't make a difference. Every bullet has a recommended seating deplth range from the manufacturer, follow it. If you don't have it, call them. Noslers took about 60 seconds to find: http://www.nosler.com/223-remington They tested their load data with 2.260", so I'd recommend 2.250" for that bullet. Get good calipers. All of this is covered in a good reloading manual. I recommend owning at least 3 manuals from different manufacturers. They are good reads and it is good to cross reference data. |
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Man, where to start.
Clearing the round, or a stuck case in the chamber is achieved via pulling down on the charging handle, while giving the butt stock of the gun a hard blow to the ground. As for reloading, until you do a hell of a lot more reading, or find a good mentor, you are not ready to reload yet. An auto loading rifle requires that the cases be full sized, and not just neck sized. So on that note, lets just start with case prep. Cases get tumbled to remove all the old debris so they do not ruin the sizers. Once cleaned, the cases get lubed, then full sized, then thrown back into the tumble to not only remove the lube, but to clean the primer pockets now that the primers have been removed. Next step is to unify trim the brass all to the same length per the guides now that they have been sized, followed by chamfering the fresh cut mouths, then the primer pockets are unifed as well. Again, the cases have to be trimmed for two reasons. The first is that the case stretch over firings, which will cause the to be too long for the chamber, and if the cases are not unified in length, then trying to set the bullet crimp with anything short of a Lee factor bullet crimp die is just going to end up badly. Now primer/power and project choice. The fact that you are using power in the 30/30 range that will cause cycling problems in the autoloader, instead of power more suitable for the 55 gr bullet in the rifle (something with a burn rate around Blc-2), screams that you have not done enough research to load for the rifle yet. Don't get me wrong, I can crack a RCBS reloading book and come up with one of their loads for 223 using 3031 (works fine in a bolt action rifle), but the power will not produce the needed gas pressure to cycle the rifle correctly. To add, the 41 primer is designed for ball ammo that needed a hotter spark/primer to get it going (not the protruded powder you are using), so again, not enough reading/mentoring on the rifle to begin to load for it correctly yet. Once you have the correct primer, the correct powder, and using the using guide information to work the loads up from the start point to check for over pressure/ what the rifle likes best, then it just a matter of setting the OAL correctly per the guides as well. Yes, there are cases where you may need to long load to a longer OAL, but with a 55gr bullet, this is not one of them. Simply put, you need to do a lot more research until you start reloading for the rifle again. Don't get me wrong, we all started as a novice as some point, and what everyone here is trying to tell you is until you get the needed infromation so you are reloading correctly for the rifle, don't screw around just thinking that you have it all up to speed/will learn threw trial and error. Trust is, having fun, to having a rifle KB is just one mistake that can happen quickly from not getting it right every time out. Until you have all the detail correct, don't start reloading yet. Having said that, we do have a reloading forum on the board is you which to take the topic there for more information, or if you wish, may leave this topic in play so we can walk you through reloading correctly here and now!!!! Cheers, Dano And Welcome to the site!!!! |
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So after researching and going to Cabela's and reading several reloading manuals and talking to the person there, and looking at this post, I found out the problem. LEE HANDLOADING KIT only resizes the neck! Not a full length! So it does not resize the shoulder. I wish they wrote this info on the instructions of the Handloading kit. The information is not there!
Of all the manuals I read at Cabela's (Read about 8 manuals) only one mentioned that Lee handloading kit only resizes the neck! The brass that got stuck was the one it didn't fire from my Ar-15. I must have picked up someone else brass. I know I will get in trouble for saying it, but after reading the manuals it really wasn't that helpful. I went to Cabela's to buy a manual and after spending sometime just reading through various manuals, it really didn't give me new information. Many of the stuff that was in the manual I found them on the internet. Anyways, I will digress... So I went ahead and bought the press and the dies that do full length resize. You guys were more than helpful in troubleshooting than the manuals. Thanks for all your help. |
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So you were using one of these kits?
http://leeprecision.com/lee-loader-223-rem.html I was under the impression you were using this with standard dies. http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press.html That will definitely cause you problems in an autoloader. If you're looking for a video that helps explain the process from the beginning, this guy does a decent job: http://youtu.be/SXYCHd75a6I |
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The brass that got stuck was the one it didn't fire from my Ar-15. I must have picked up someone else brass That has nothing to do with it. If you have any notion that brass fired in your SEMI-AUTO AR15 is going to fit back into the chamber without resistance, let me warn you now. YOU ARE WRONG Brass fired in an AR must be full-length resized after each firing. |
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I was using that handloader, not the hand press. They should say it in their instruction booklet that this only sizes the neck not the full length. |
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Every manual covers these topics. You can hate on books all you want, but if you don't know what kind of dies you have, you shouldn't be reloading. good luck. You'll need it until you embrace reloading with the heart of a student. How about resources found in the internet? I actually spent around 40 hours reading materials and viewing video clips on the internet even before started reloading my first batch using the hand loader. Don't get me wrong, the manuals were helpful because I found the information I was looking for but other than the first few chapters in the manuals that talks about the basics of reloading, it gave me an impression that the manual is like a reference book. The reference materials can all be found in the bullet and powder manufacturer's website. I don't hate books. It's just that I hate paying for information that is free and that I can just search in a few clicks. I am a heavy computer/internet nerd and can find resources quickly. All I am saying is that after skimming through 8 manuals, I knew that I came across all the info that were in the books as I was researching on the internet for 40+ hours before my first reload. I am still learning from the mistakes I made. It is people like you that I gain more information. I even read on the manual that it takes around 100-200 rounds of making ammo, for you to get the feeling of how exactly ammunition reloading is about. I think it is saying that there is some kind of learning curve to ammo making. I know one guy basically said, "there is no learning curve, you have to get it perfect the first time because your life is on the line..." (I am paraphrasing). But isn't that too over dramatic? I am not saying you start reloading by going to the store and buy a kit. You have to be educated. I guess I am just against the traditional "read books and learn only from it" mentality. I am continuing to learn that is why I come to forums like this and get information. In fact Cabela's is holding a free seminar by this 20 year reloading veteran this Saturday. I may go to that workshop. I am getting rid of my first batch of reload (pull the bullets out) and return the Lee Handloading Kit. As of now, I am finding that there is no hand loading kit that does full length resize. Maybe some of you should develop this? Like everyone else I am getting the press separately and the full length dies. |
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If you are going to load for the AR, get a proper loading press, and get a case gage to measure your product. Get rid of the Lee tool. I am returning them and getting a simple press along with FL die. I do have a digital caliper that measure to .001 inch (accuracy +/- .001) These Lee hand loaders do not resize anything. I found out the hard way. I thought something was wrong with my technique or something. |
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Now primer/power and project choice. The fact that you are using power in the 30/30 range that will cause cycling problems in the autoloader, instead of power more suitable for the 55 gr bullet in the rifle (something with a burn rate around Blc-2), screams that you have not done enough research to load for the rifle yet. Don't get me wrong, I can crack a RCBS reloading book and come up with one of their loads for 223 using 3031 (works fine in a bolt action rifle), but the power will not produce the needed gas pressure to cycle the rifle correctly. To add, the 41 primer is designed for ball ammo that needed a hotter spark/primer to get it going (not the protruded powder you are using), so again, not enough reading/mentoring on the rifle to begin to load for it correctly yet. Yes I do clean and prepare the case (minus the lubing the case, because I was using a hand loading kit not the press). Well the guy who has been relaoding for 20 years said that IMR 3031 is actually good and accurate for AR rounds especially if it is loaded near the maximum load (24.6). But of course I had to work up from the minimum load to that. My first 2 rounds of 22 grains had no problem cycling my AR. |
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moseschi, take a look at this burn charts,
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html BCL-2 will put you dead center of the correct burn range of what you want to use for 55/62gr bullets. Varget will put you in the range for a good powder for 69gr bullets. The reason behind this is the burn rate of the powder has to do a great deal with the amount of residual gas at the gas port. Read this post to get an idea of how the Peak pressure of the powder burn, is not the same as what the gas system see since the pressure is dropping. The faster the power burns, the faster it will drop off, leaving less pressure at the gas port. On the other side of the coin, slower burning power leaves more residual pressure at the gas port. So too fast of a power, although you have hit the right working pressures, may end up with not enough pressure at the gas port to cause short stroking. Too slow of a power, and you end up with over function, which acts just like short stoking as well. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/266108_How_it_Works__The_AR_gas_operation_and_how_everything_works_in_harmony_.html So the point to be made, with 3031 powder, the powder is burning a tad fast that desired ,and depending on the rig, may produce short stroking with not enough gas pressure to the gas port as you are working up loads. Next, understand that the powder you are using, and if it requires a hotter primer to get a correct burn started. The fact that the mil use the 41 primer has to do a great deal with the powder being use, hence they use ball powder which takes a hotter burn to get going correctly. When you use a hotter primer with protruded powder, all you are doing is increasing the deviation between shots since it not so much that the primer to too hot for the powder, but the primers are not consistent in pressure as say a bench rest primer. So sum it up here, for Extruded or Tubular powder in 223, a standard rifle primer is all that is needed, and not the hotter 41 (the magnum primer that it really is). For ball powders, then you want to step the primer up to a magnum primer to get a correct initial start burn. |
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I do have a digital caliper that measure to .001 inch (accuracy +/- .001) Useless for measuring base-to-shoulder. You must buy a DEDICATED CASE GAGE for each bottleneck caliber you reload. Technically, you can buy attachments that clip to your vernier caliper, which purport to measure base-to-shoulder. I have used the clip-on devices. I find them to be inferior to a proper case gage. |
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You should use MAGNUM primers for all 5.56 ammo.
The "standard" primer is thinner by 0.005" than the magnum primer. Use of the thinner primers with any kind of zippy load, and you will be on the threshold of piercing primers. I've been using NOTHING BUT magnum primers for all may AR-15 ammo since 1998. I had numerous pierced primers before I made the change. I have not had a single one since the change. |
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I was using that handloader, not the hand press. They should say it in their instruction booklet that this only sizes the neck not the full length. Quoted:
I was using that handloader, not the hand press. They should say it in their instruction booklet that this only sizes the neck not the full length. They do state it in the instructions with the kit... 
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They do state it in the instructions with the kit... https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uDEiptmtPIk/UrUChs4bXzI/AAAAAAAAIvs/Due_WBClD88/w1536-h864-no/20131220_204931.jpg Quoted:
Quoted:
I was using that handloader, not the hand press. They should say it in their instruction booklet that this only sizes the neck not the full length. They do state it in the instructions with the kit... https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uDEiptmtPIk/UrUChs4bXzI/AAAAAAAAIvs/Due_WBClD88/w1536-h864-no/20131220_204931.jpg Opps my bad. I thought I read through... I guess I didn't read it thoroughly. My goal is to read at least 2 manuals or equivalent in the next month before I start reloading my 2nd batch. |
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Useless for measuring base-to-shoulder.
You must buy a DEDICATED CASE GAGE for each bottleneck caliber you reload. Technically, you can buy attachments that clip to your vernier caliper, which purport to measure base-to-shoulder. I have used the clip-on devices. I find them to be inferior to a proper case gage. I am guessing even with a FL die, it is always good to measure the headspace. Then what is a good budget headspace case gauge? Is there a way to measure it without a gauge? |
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You should use MAGNUM primers for all 5.56 ammo. The "standard" primer is thinner by 0.005" than the magnum primer. Use of the thinner primers with any kind of zippy load, and you will be on the threshold of piercing primers. I've been using NOTHING BUT magnum primers for all may AR-15 ammo since 1998. I had numerous pierced primers before I made the change. I have not had a single one since the change. You are never going to find a 5.56nato load in any reloading manual. The only published loads are always 223 rem, and call out for Standard rifle primers in every piece of loading data I have ever come across. It's only when you are using Ball powder that you even think about using a Mag primer (or in this case, the #41 primer) since the hotter burn will get the ball powder initial ignited better to lower your standard deviations (at the cost of higher working pressures), then here more than every so, the reason that you have to work up the load from the suggested starting reduced point to check for over pressure loads. Note, again, since the mag primer is designed for higher pressure loads, just trying to read a spent primer alone is not going to work. Plus that fact that you are increasing working pressure of the load to reduce deviations, at the cost of over-all max speed that the load can achieve before it hits the max working pressure. If you are on the verge of piercing primers with any 223 load, then something is wrong with either the load (too high of pressure), or the FP protrusion in your gun. In a AR rifle in 223/5.56 Nato, the correct protrusion spec for the FP out the bolt is .028" to .032", and the only time you even dare to go longer than .032" is in the case of a lightened speed hammer or reduced tension hammer spring that may produce light primer strikes. Also to point out, the extra thickness of the mag cup is due to the needed pressure of a magnum load (not something that you will find in any 223 reloading data). Again, since there are no published 5.56 Nato loading data (only 223 rem loads), then the thicker primer cup of such will give you the wrong feed back in regards to pressure reading the spent primer. Plus the fact that the magnum primer does produce more energy than a standard primer, leading to over pressure loads more quickly when using data that calls out for standard rifle primers. Note, the trade off of ball powder is the hotter primer needed to get a it ignited correctly at ignition to lower deviations, but on the same side of that cone, the hotter primers do not burn as consistent as a match primer. When reloading match loads, its the most consistent/weakest primer that you are trying to use to get the lowest standard deviations from shot to shot due to the inconsistencies of the primer (read want the powder to do in all the work, with the primer having the least amount of influence to working pressure). Simply put, if you are switching out standard primers to mag primers in a standard primer load, then you are off the reservation in regards to any reloading data, since gun powder does not burn linear as you reach max pressures and beyond. And to even think about reloading to Nato pressure levels requires a lab to pressure tests the loads to confirm that they are within working pressures. Short of M-193 and M-855, I can think of no reason to every load to max working pressures. Even in this these blazing type ammos, MOA is about the best you will achieve in any rifle. Slow the load down to find the harmonics of the barrel for an end of oblong exit point instead, and if your rifle can achieve MOA with Nato ammo, it will drop it sub MOA instead. |
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I am guessing even with a FL die, it is always good to measure the headspace. Then what is a good budget headspace case gauge? Is there a way to measure it without a gauge? Head space is measured on the gun. What you want is an ammo test gauge, and these can be bought from Sinclair or Dillion, ect..... http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/reloading/casegauge/casegauge-1.htm |
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