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Posted: 3/2/2008 2:12:19 AM EDT
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Hello, I'll be coming home in not too long, and I'd like to make a pretty sizable purchase of SS109/M855 62 gr. ammunition. However, I'm kind of uncertain about all the different kinds of SS109/M855 made by different companies out there. I would prefer to be able to just get Lake City, but I've been having trouble finding sources for it, but M855 from other companies seems to be available. I don't remember exactly what brand it was, but I've had problems with commercial M855 short stroking before (came in a white box with stripper clips), and I was wondering if anyone could give me a quick heads up on what kinds of brands out there are good to use, and what kinds are unreliable and/or inconsistent. For the most part, the rounds will be fired out of 14.5" and 14.7" carbine barrels. Also want to know similar information about M856. Thanks, ~Augee |
| There is a big difference between Igman of Bosnia and Prvi of Serbia. Two very different arsenals in two different countries. Igman makes some of the best 50 BMG ammo in the world and Prvi makes some of the best M855, IMHO. Prvi doesn't make 50 BMG. The US has bought TONS of Prvi M855 for delivery to third parties. It is great stuff. I don't know about Igman SS109 / M855. |
Some of the best M855 I've fired was from IMI. Here's a short evaluation of that ammo for comparison. IMI M855 is loaded with a 62 grain FMJ bullet with a cannelure and has a steel penetrator. The ammunition is charged with "ball powder". The primers are sealed and crimped in placed. The bullet is also crimped in place and the case mouth is sealed with an asphalt sealant. It is easily distinguished from IMI M193 by the green painted bullet tip.  Chronograph data was obtained using an Oehler 35P with "proof screen" technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software program. All strings of fire consisted of 10 shots each.  Accuracy testing was performed using a free-floated 20" Colt HBAR. The barrel has a 1:7" twist, NATO chamber and is chrome lined. Accuracy testing was done from a distance of 100 yards shooting from a bench-rest. A 10-shot control-group was fired using 55 grain Sierra BlitzKings and had an extreme spread of 1.17". Three 10-shot groups of the IMI M855 were fired in a row with the following extreme spreads: 2.14" 3.01" 1.71" for a 10-shot average of 2.29". The best 10-shot group is pictured below.  The three 10-shot groups were overlayed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for this composite group was 0.69".   |
| I bought 1 case of Winchester Q3269 and am very happy with it. I have 07 headstamped stuff and it is not of the faulty lot# (obviously, being '07), and the primers and neck are sealed. It frags in wet phone-books at 100y, and it penetrates like crazy. It also delivered a 2.75" 10-shot group on a windy day with me firing fast/not trying too hard. |
I got hit for $500 OTD, but it was the ONLY case at the show. Everyone else wanted way more (LC) or had inferior M855 such as IGMAN. |
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Out of all the M855/SS109 I have tested over the MANY YEARS I like the S&B SS109 ZV headstamp THE BEST OF ALL #1 can buy Factory fresh #2 Hotter than M855 specs # 3 ALOT more Accurate than Lake City & Win & IMI M855 had a SD of 14 wich is Outstanding 3184FPS @ 25yards Rifle was a M16A2 TESTED by LTC Chuck Santose Santa Barbra SS109 is the Most accurate I have shot in 4 different AR15`s to date BUT ITS SURPLUS AMMO  I ALSO like IMI M855 because it could be had FACTORY FRESH NOT LC /WIN rejects Its not as accurate as my S&B SS109 but will do the job |
I have fired 3000 rounds of Igman M855 in the last couple of months. It was all green tip with IK 04 as the headstamp, meaning made in 2004 by Igman. Not 1 single issue with feeding, firing, extracting, ejecting, or chambering. I tested a Bandoleer of USGI M855 at 100 M, in strings of 30. Then I fired 120 rounds of Igman M855 in strings of 30. POA and POI were the same for both rounds, so velocity is very close between the two. Based on my experience, Igman is neither inferior now is it crap. JMHO, YMMV, HTH, KMA and SMD. 
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At 100y it would take a good bit of velocity diff to notice a lower POI. Inconclusive. Wolf 62gr shoots to the same POI at 100y as Q3131 for me as far as I can tell with iron sights. |
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Reference chrono testing from ammo review on Igman M855. Coolio: This past Friday (8-6) I got to the firing range with my chronograph and worked with my handloads. While I was at it I shot some Olin/Winchester M855 and some Ingman "Hot Shot" SS109 62gr. Green Tip. Here's my results (I'm including the Olin/Winchester M855 as something to which to compare the Ingman SS109). Ingman SS109 "Hot Shot" 62gr. Average velocity: 3,059.05 FPS Hi: 3,091.64 FPS Lo: 3,007.14 FPS Extreme spread: 84.50 FPS Standard Deviation: 27.80 Olin/Winchester M855 Average velocity: 3,091.42 FPS Hi: 3,123.55 FPS Lo: 3,051.11 FPS Extreme spread: 72.44 FPS Standard Deviation: 24.91 The above data results from one ten shot string of each ammo type. While I was at it, I also shot ten additional rounds of each for accuracy. This was a rather informal test, but this is what I did. Two three shot groups and one four shot group at 100 yards. The Ingman gave me an average group size for the three groups of: 1.5" and the Olin/Winchester gave me an average group size for its three groups of: 1 5/16". The gun used was a Bushmaster A3 w/20" chrome lined, 1:9 twist. The optical unit was a Burris 1.5x6 x 40 scope which is mounted on an A.R.M.S.#5 multi base with Leupold medium rings. The Chronograph used was a Gamma Master Chrony. Readings were taken 15 feet from the muzzle. The conditions were: approx. 72 degrees, sunny, dry, very little wind. I only shot a total of twenty rounds of each ammo, but there were no malfunctions nor problems of any kind. Based upon the above results I would conclude that the two ammo types are very closely equivalent. Certainly the Ingman does not seem to be related to the NATO stuff that has been loaded down in order to work in the SA-80 Bullpup. From the chrono test data above, it seems to be on par velocity wise with Win M855. This chrono test data can be found in the ammo review in the Igman subforum. I just want to add that im NOT married to this ammo, im just giving my honest opinion of it based on my experience with it. If I REALLY need some M855, I have 2 cans of LC 07 M855, I can fall back on the USGI ammo if I had to for some reason. |
I agree that IMI M855/SS109 was good ammunition. BUT, it cannot be had FACTORY FRESH. They haven't exported to the US in several years, and it is unlikely that we will see IMI ammo again for a very long time. I understand that IMI is sold out to the IDF and US for several years to come. Israel's ammo supply was caught short in Lebanon a couple of years ago, and they don't want that to happen again. Also, I was wondering, why would you want ammo that is in EXCESS of M855 specs? Maybe it is the engineer in me, but for the long term, shouldn't you "burn the gas designed for the engine?" |
A big +1 for IMI ammo. I've found IMI to be among the best ammo available anywhere, in any caliber or loading. The last IMI M855 I had was distributed by Hansen Cartridge Company--mid-90's vintage, TZZ-headstamped, sealed in 240-round clear plastic battlepacks: http://i15.tinypic.com/86jqumo.jpg |
Last IMI I bought fresh was in 2001 I see it a gun shows sometimes If stored right it would be my pick over SURPLUS Why do I like S&B ZV SS109 BECAUSE IT SHOOTS OUTSTANDING GROUPS I DONT CARE ABOUT A FEW EXTRA FPS I CARE ABOUGHT ACCURACY It just happens to be hotter than M855 specs USEING S&B SS109 with ZV headstamp IN A1 BUSHMASTER 20HBAR 1/9 twist A1 Bushmaster 14.7 1/9 twist Home Built LMT M4 14,5 1/7 twist LMT Defender 2000 M4 14,5 1/7 twist With these 4 different AR`S S&B ZV SS109 shoots WAY TIGHTER GROUPS than Lake City & Win & IMI M855 SANTA BARBRA so far is the most accurate of them all thats in my AR15`s maybe yours will be different! May mags are loaded with mostly BH 75gr
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| Velocity wasnt measured AT THE MUZZLE< it was 15 FEET from the muzzle. AT that distance it exceded the M855 spec of 3025 fps. Using a little bit of common sense should tell you that distance traveled= drop in velocity. 15 Feet is roughly 5 Meters. If the velocity were measured another 20 meters from the muzzle, and it was above the velocity spec of 3025 at 5 meters, we can most likely conclude that at an additional 20 meters away, the bullet will be traveling at a slightly lower velocity. Most likely 55 FPS slower. That would be around, oh, I dont know, say perhaps 3025 FPS after it travels the remaining 20 meters? Sound about right to you there, FMJ? |
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Hello, Thanks for your input, everyone. I guess out of force of habit, and familiarity, I'd like to use M855 as my sort of "mean round," the loading that all my weapons will be zeroed for, and as primary SHTF ammo. I am a firm believer in using the right tool for the right situation, and plan to have several different kinds of ammunition for different purposes, but in the interest of some standardization and consistency, for volume fire, some plinking, and sighting, M855 seems to be the best round to use, even though I will probably do my plinking primarily with the cheaper 55 gr. stuff, especially for reflexive fire / short range training, but for serious use, I prefer the use of M855. So, I'm gathering that my best bet would be to look for S&B or IMI M855? Is WIN M855 the same or similar to LC? Is the LC ammo available on the civilian market then surplus ammo, and less reliable than the issued stuff? My carbines seem to eat even lacquer coated Wolf without problems (cheap plinking ammo is always a nice thing!), but have had problems with commercial M855 short stroking (Igman, I believe, in a white cardboard box, as I said, on stripper clips). Thanks, ~Augee |
I zero both my LMT M4`s with M855 at 50yards Eotech and arms 40 on a LMT 14.5 1/7 twist Aimpoint ML2 and arms 40L sp on a LMT 14.5 1/7 twist At the 50yard line Black Hills 77/75gr has the same POI as M855 I can HIT TIN CANS out to the Berm 220yards with BH 77/75gr So the POI is very close to M855 out to 220yards I think its because of the Long bullet of the M855/SS109 its close to the size of a 75/77gr OTM So I dont mess with my zero when useing the 77/75gr AMMO I dought I will shoot Bad guys past 220yards anyway I just dont like useing ANY SURPLUS AMMO for protection Its sold for a reason! If you can find Good M855/SS109 then go for it or better yet just keep a few mags loaded with 75gr TAP otr a good soft point Bearclaw or DPX etc! |
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Thanks, Right now I'm looking at least four or five different loads, for different purposes. I'd like to keep a couple mags loaded with M856, more out of force of habit than anything else. One or two per weapon, really. M855 will be general purpose ammunition, and the primary load for the trunk gun. 75 gr. TAP or something similar, or maybe even Mk 262 Mod 1 as defensive ammunition, most of which would be the primary load for the HD weapon, and Mk 262 Mod 1 would also be longer range precision ammo. Finally, for general practice ammunition, it would be basically whatever I could find for a decent price that would run well, most likely M193 of some variety, or other 55 gr. plinking round. Oh... and of course a metric shit ton of .22lr for my M261!  ~Augee |
I have IMI M855 I bought fresh Its not factory seconds or floor sweeping! I DO NOT COUNT IT AS SURPLUS AMMO LIKE LAKE CITY PD etc! I would use my IMI M855 after I used up my 75grOTM BTW I think IMI is one of the best M855 one can get Better than LC&WIN M855 |
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