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Posted: 2/11/2013 4:24:16 PM EDT
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So I have some XM855 and was wondering if there is any significant difference
compared to M855 ? The stuff I have is L.C. 2012 vintage. |
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I had the same question so I sent an email to Federal and asked them. They returned an email and to paraphrase what they told me..... "the M855 is what the military orders. The military's specifications are quite rigid with almost no room for error. If a batch for any reason fails the military specification it is no longer M855 and the military doesn't get it." Now they have a crap load of M855 that they have to get rid of so they call it XM855 and sell it to the public, LEOs and other customers. It may have failed the mil spec for any number of reasons, but for the most part is just as good as the mil spec. I suppose that they pull random samples from the production batch and test it 10 ways to Sunday and if something fails, they fail the whole batch. Could be anything, could be nothing.... Some people say that XM855 is seconds or rejected ammo and swear against it, but in reality (at least my opinion) even a failed mil spec standard is probably higher than a civilian standard. |
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It's usually very minor stuff that even military folks who handle it daily wouldn't notice. Example is sealant. Might be too much, might not be enough. Green tip too much paint or not enough, or the green is the wrong shade. It's minor shit, not worth stepping up to the plate to buy real deal M855 for huge bucks.
Buy it, shoot it and enjoy it. |
| The QC model for GI ammunition disqualifies an entire lot (which could be millions of rounds) if certain conditions are met, such as too many test rounds exceeding or falling below specified velocity standards, "cosmetic" issues like case mouth sealant on the outside of the neck, too many rounds with too little or too much primer sealant, rounds with excessive variation in performance at extreme temperatures, etc., and of course some combination of the above flaws that may be less than needed to disqualify the lot by themselves. Will you or I need our ammo to perform identically at 150°F and at -75°F? To withstand submersion at 7 atmospheres of water pressure (about 35' under water), AND meet GI marking standards? Not likely. I have never seen a cosmetic flaw in any XM855, nor have I seen a performance issue with it. |
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It's usually very minor stuff that even military folks who handle it daily wouldn't notice. Example is sealant. Might be too much, might not be enough. Green tip too much paint or not enough, or the green is the wrong shade. It's minor shit, not worth stepping up to the plate to buy real deal M855 for huge bucks. Buy it, shoot it and enjoy it. That is less than half of it though. They also test by accuracy, velocity spread, and damaged or defective rounds. My experiences with XM855 have been iffy. Lots of damaged rounds and dead primers. Sure not a very significant amount, but then again I also think PMC X-Tac is some of the best M855 you can get and I'm sure for every round I've fired there's someone who would call me an idiot for saying that. |
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None of this is true. It's all bs.
Clinton signed an executive order that basically made it so that ammo that was made for the army can not be sold whole. It has to be pulled down. Not sense this executive order has any xm855 been "rejects". They pull those rounds down the the bullet, powder and primed case and sell those in whole lots to reloading companies or scrap companies. Remember when he industry went crazy when Obama tried to make it so that those pulled down cases had to be destroyed? Tha wasn't just for the expended brass coming out of bases. My inlaws live 3 miles from lake city. I know many people that work there. I've seen multiple Gaylords full of rounds that are to be pulled down. Federal ATK can use the line they run to make commercial ammo. And that's what they do. If a run is for the army it either gets sold to the army or pulled down. Not sold as xm855. The reason federal makes the distinction to us by saying its not mil spec is because its not. They don't do all the testing on it that the DoD wants cause they don't need to. It's not tested to m855 so it's xm855, it may have passed the tests had they been done, but they wernt so who knows. Your also ignoring the fact that xm193 is m193, and the mil doesn't buy m193 so what are they rejects of? How many runs of ammo get rejected? In standard high speed manufacturing a 5% fail rate is kinda high. Your telling me that ATK is so horrible at making ammo that all the ammo they make for us is the 5% left of rejects? Bullshit. They make and sell to much lake city marked ammo to have any amount of it be rejects. That is if you ignore the Clinton executive order banning surplusing of ammo. |
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None of this is true. It's all bs. Clinton signed an executive order that basically made it so that ammo that was made for the army can not be sold whole. It has to be pulled down. Not sense this executive order has any xm855 been "rejects". They pull those rounds down the the bullet, powder and primed case and sell those in whole lots to reloading companies or scrap companies. Remember when he industry went crazy when Obama tried to make it so that those pulled down cases had to be destroyed? Tha wasn't just for the expended brass coming out of bases. My inlaws live 3 miles from lake city. I know many people that work there. I've seen multiple Gaylords full of rounds that are to be pulled down. Federal ATK can use the line they run to make commercial ammo. And that's what they do. If a run is for the army it either gets sold to the army or pulled down. Not sold as xm855. The reason federal makes the distinction to us by saying its not mil spec is because its not. They don't do all the testing on it that the DoD wants cause they don't need to. It's not tested to m855 so it's xm855, it may have passed the tests had they been done, but they wernt so who knows. Your also ignoring the fact that xm193 is m193, and the mil doesn't buy m193 so what are they rejects of? How many runs of ammo get rejected? In standard high speed manufacturing a 5% fail rate is kinda high. Your telling me that ATK is so horrible at making ammo that all the ammo they make for us is the 5% left of rejects? Bullshit. They make and sell to much lake city marked ammo to have any amount of it be rejects. That is if you ignore the Clinton executive order banning surplusing of ammo. Just curious, how does M855 and Mk262 get in civilian hands if that's the case? |
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I don't even care. All of the Fed. LC XM855 I've ever bought has been just fine. Maybe a few dinged cases, nothing I wouldn't shoot. Maybe some specks of sealant on the cases. I've never had any type of problem with the stuff. I don't expect, or get, 1 moa. But 3 - 4 moa all day long is good for me.
It's fine for what it is in my experience. I wish like hell I could find 420 cans for $130 or so, like was the case just 10 months ago.. 
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When have you seen real in the flesh m855?
Mk262 is made by blackhills, depending on when in the chain the DoD takes possession it could open a loop hole for blackhills to pull seconds. ATK runs lake city for the army. The army being there may be part of it. The DoD may be part of the QC process and that involves a change of possession. We also don't know the Nature of their contract. It may be a "we're selling you this" not a "hey lets make this for you in a factory you own" This isn't theory, google it. |
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When have you seen real in the flesh m855? Mk262 is made by blackhills, depending on when in the chain the DoD takes possession it could open a loop hole for blackhills to pull seconds. ATK runs lake city for the army. The army being there may be part of it. The DoD may be part of the QC process and that involves a change of possession. We also don't know the Nature of their contract. It may be a "we're selling you this" not a "hey lets make this for you in a factory you own" This isn't theory, google it. I'm not trying to be rude, but you're confusing me now. You just said above that no military ammo makes it out, then said in this post it does. Even further, you said it's seconds which you claimed above didn't exist. So all of the Federal and Lake City branded M855 that used to be sold in boxes marked M855 was a mistake or marketing ploy or something? I googled and found about twenty different stories about how it comes about. I'm not trying to sound like a dick,.but a little less condescending tone and a little bit more info would be great. I've heard everything from there is no such thing as M855 to it's ammo soldiers swallowed by accident and shit out. So if I seem skeptical, please don't take it offensively as I've heard the exact opposite of what you're stating from people who claimed to be in the know as well. |
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Now that everyone is totally confuse on this issue. I have another question.
Why do some of the cans of XM 855 (this is the stuff made by Federal) have printed on the can "NOT FOR MILITARY USE" and some of the cans don't. And it's all XM855. I'm just curious, I think the stuff WAS a good deal 6 months ago. I have never had any problems with it. |
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When have you seen real in the flesh m855? Mk262 is made by blackhills, depending on when in the chain the DoD takes possession it could open a loop hole for blackhills to pull seconds. ATK runs lake city for the army. The army being there may be part of it. The DoD may be part of the QC process and that involves a change of possession. We also don't know the Nature of their contract. It may be a "we're selling you this" not a "hey lets make this for you in a factory you own" This isn't theory, google it. I'm not trying to be rude, but you're confusing me now. You just said above that no military ammo makes it out, then said in this post it does. Even further, you said it's seconds which you claimed above didn't exist. So all of the Federal and Lake City branded M855 that used to be sold in boxes marked M855 was a mistake or marketing ploy or something? I googled and found about twenty different stories about how it comes about. I'm not trying to sound like a dick,.but a little less condescending tone and a little bit more info would be great. I've heard everything from there is no such thing as M855 to it's ammo soldiers swallowed by accident and shit out. So if I seem skeptical, please don't take it offensively as I've heard the exact opposite of what you're stating from people who claimed to be in the know as well. I'm with you. I'm used to just bluntly stating things as to get my point across, I come off as the surly asshole alot. No military ammo made by the military (lake city) gets out. Blackhills isn't using any government facilities. That may be the reason. Does it make perfect sense? No. But I wouldn't bet blackhills would be willing to divulge the details of their business and a lucrative contract so we may not ever know the specifics of how we come to get mk262 seconds. Really, I figure it's just cause lake city is a government plant that they have different rules then a private company as it pertains to when ammo becomes "theirs" As to the m855 marked boxes? Well I don't know what to tell you. If I were a ammo company I'd love to sell a true or labeled m855 and I'd find ways to do it. Lie or otherwise. |
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Quoted: When have you seen real in the flesh m855? Mk262 is made by blackhills, depending on when in the chain the DoD takes possession it could open a loop hole for blackhills to pull seconds. ATK runs lake city for the army. The army being there may be part of it. The DoD may be part of the QC process and that involves a change of possession. We also don't know the Nature of their contract. It may be a "we're selling you this" not a "hey lets make this for you in a factory you own" This isn't theory, google it. Are you talking about this stuff?   Purchased from CTD 5/5/2008 |
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I really wouldn't worry too much about M855. You know how many of those boxes I bought? Two. As you can see, I still have them. That's mainly because I've since learned (in The Book of the AR-15 by Patrick Sweeny) that it's a poor self defense round. It requires higher velocity to fragment (i.e. closer distance) than M193. The designers of the round sacrificed fragmentation for penetration. Yes, M855 will reliably fragment as well as M193 at in-home distances. It just happens to go through more walls when you miss. Now, if you're using M855 in a M249 (the platform it was designed for), who cares? Rounds per minute helps negate the need for fragmentation. I'm amazed that, in the age of Hornady TAP T2, people will pay $0.80 to $1.00 per round for M855. I'm talking pre-Sandy Hook. |
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I've chronographed XM855, M855, and SS109 from a 16 in carbine.
I would guess the XM855 did not meet required specifications, based on the observed chronograph data. POI at 100M was within about 2 MOA for all. MV: Muzzle Velocity, ES: Extreme Spread, SD: Standard Deviation, MR: Mean Radius. IVI SS109 (Canadian) MV: 2993 ES: 18 SD: 6 MR: 0.898 MOA. Winchester M855 MV:2990 ES:20 SD:10 Federal XM855 MV:2950 ES:86 SD:31 
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None of this is true. It's all bs. Clinton signed an executive order that basically made it so that ammo that was made for the army can not be sold whole. It has to be pulled down. Not sense this executive order has any xm855 been "rejects". They pull those rounds down the the bullet, powder and primed case and sell those in whole lots to reloading companies or scrap companies. Remember when he industry went crazy when Obama tried to make it so that those pulled down cases had to be destroyed? Tha wasn't just for the expended brass coming out of bases. My inlaws live 3 miles from lake city. I know many people that work there. I've seen multiple Gaylords full of rounds that are to be pulled down. Federal ATK can use the line they run to make commercial ammo. And that's what they do. If a run is for the army it either gets sold to the army or pulled down. Not sold as xm855. The reason federal makes the distinction to us by saying its not mil spec is because its not. They don't do all the testing on it that the DoD wants cause they don't need to. It's not tested to m855 so it's xm855, it may have passed the tests had they been done, but they wernt so who knows. Your also ignoring the fact that xm193 is m193, and the mil doesn't buy m193 so what are they rejects of? How many runs of ammo get rejected? In standard high speed manufacturing a 5% fail rate is kinda high. Your telling me that ATK is so horrible at making ammo that all the ammo they make for us is the 5% left of rejects? Bullshit. They make and sell to much lake city marked ammo to have any amount of it be rejects. That is if you ignore the Clinton executive order banning surplusing of ammo. I'm curious why you call them Federal ATK! |
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I'm curious why you call them Federal ATK! ATK (Alliant Techsystems Inc) owns Federal Cartridge and has the contract to operate the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). Lots of people have no idea how big ATK is. I call them federal ATK just cause its easy to lump them together to get the point across. ATK owns Federal, Fusion Ammunition, CCI/Blazer/Speer, Estate Cartridge, Black Cloud, Weaver, Blackhawk!, Simmons, Redfield, Eagle Industries, and RCBS. |
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To withstand submersion at 7 atmospheres of water pressure (about 35' under water), Not to nit pick, but to nit pick, 1 atmosphere under water is ~10 meters or ~33feet I used the wrong number: 3.5 Waterproofness. The cartridge shall not release more than one bubble of air when subjected to a positive internal pressure of 7.5 pounds per square inch (psi) for 30 seconds minimum.
My point was about how important it is to we civilians for our ammunition to withstand all the qualification standards of GI ammunition. |
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I'm curious why you call them Federal ATK! ATK (Alliant Techsystems Inc) owns Federal Cartridge and has the contract to operate the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). Lots of people have no idea how big ATK is. I call them federal ATK just cause its easy to lump them together to get the point across. ATK owns Federal, Fusion Ammunition, CCI/Blazer/Speer, Estate Cartridge, Black Cloud, Weaver, Blackhawk!, Simmons, Redfield, Eagle Industries, and RCBS. Also, ATK did have a contract for an Army Ammunition Plant in Radford VA, but has since lost the contract (last year I believe). So LCAAP is the last Army plant ATK is in. You are correct on most of the companies that ATK owns.... though ATK doesn't own Simmons, there are simmons products (made by weaver) that are marketed as simmons parts. There are also a few companies you are missing that ATK owns, but its not important. PS, I work for ATK. |
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From what i understand XM855 is just M855 that the military didnt accept for some reason so Federal or whoever sells it to the public. XM855 is not military surplus, its military rejects. As per Clinton law int he mid 90's the US military cant sell "surplus" ammo to the open market, it has to be broken down and sold as components.
Despite the fact that the ammo is technically rejected, the ammo manufacture still puts it through strict QC before selling to the public, and all the XM193 and XM855 ive shot has performed flawlessly and ive always been happy with quality. |
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I'm curious why you call them Federal ATK! ATK (Alliant Techsystems Inc) owns Federal Cartridge and has the contract to operate the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). Lots of people have no idea how big ATK is. I call them federal ATK just cause its easy to lump them together to get the point across. ATK owns Federal, Fusion Ammunition, CCI/Blazer/Speer, Estate Cartridge, Black Cloud, Weaver, Blackhawk!, Simmons, Redfield, Eagle Industries, and RCBS. So this is what im curious about, how exactly does the military m855 turn into xm855, meaning how does the process work? Does the m855 get taken apart piece for piece? Does federal pull the bullets out, dump the powder in a seperate container and rebuild the rounds? Im still curious about how the whole process works. |
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In the early to mid 2000s, I ordered a couple thousand rounds of XM193 from a large online seller who will go unnamed. I got the rounds loose in a plastic bag, which was in a cardboard box. These rounds looked like they had been swept up off the floor, dirt and all. Scuff marks on all the cases, some had dents in the side of the case, some had dents in the shoulders. Some had the bullets/neck bent over a few degrees.
I bitched and he finally took them back and refunded my money. He told me they were rounds that were rejected for one reason or another, improper crimp, no sealer, etc. Guys they looked a lot worse than rejects. Although before this, from another source I did buy some nice looking XM193 and XM855 in 20 rd boxes that shot well. I haven't bought XM anything since. I'm not saying I know where XM whatever comes from but I am saying beware. YMMV |
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