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Posted: 2/9/2009 6:48:15 PM EDT
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What is the lightest combat ready/ SHTF quality M4 out there? Please do not mention Cavarms or carbon-15's. I want to buy/build the lightest 14.5"(+ perm break/FH) M4 possible with a metal receiver, no pencil barrel, no super light buffer, and that is 100% reliable. My goal is to be under 8lbs fully loaded ready to rock. I know a loaded mag weighs about 1lb so that means rifle+sights/optics < 7lbs. I'm not concerned with current in stock as i'm in no rush right now.
Would it be better to build it? I've tried finding info on mfg's sites but there's not much out there; 6921- 5.95lb, Noveske N4 light- 6.3lb, Bushy M4- 6.22. What makes up the weight difference in these guns? Price isn't too much a concern, though I was hoping to stay at $2k total. I'm also undecided on: sights: Aimpoint vs Irons vs Irondot vs optic + BUIS? barrel: fluted SS vs chrome moly? recievers: billet vs forged? A couple components I was thinking about and am open to opinions: DD M4 Lite rail - said to be lighter than plastic hand guards? I can't see how YM skeletonized bolt carrier - would this impact reliability? ETA: Why is a 6920 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? this is the root of what I'm asking. |
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The shortest route to where you want to be would be to get a 6921 with a permanent FH to get to 16", take off the carry handle and put on an Aimpoint T-1 in a LaRue mount and the BUIS of your choice (Troy or ARMS are good choices) and you should be under 8 lbs. with a reliable weapon.
The Burris FastFire/IronDot combo is lighter than the T-1/LaRue combo, but it's not all that you want in a SHTF sight - more detail can be found in the Optics forum. The Young skeletonized BCG saves about an ounce over the Colt FA BCG and mine has proven quite reliable with a 14.5" barreled carbine gas system. But you won't really need that ounce of savings if your target is 8 pounds. |
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DD M4 Lite rail - said to be lighter than plastic hand guards? I can't see how I believe this is due to the fact that the barrel nut & delta ring get tossed out when you install the DD Lite. Plastic handguards+DeltaRing+barrelnut+handguardCap = DD Lite. But remember that you'll be re-adding weight again with rail covers, sling mount points, etc.
But basically, the above suggestion of the 6920 is the answer. Otherwise, any other kit/budget/hobby gun (Del-Ton, Bushy, RRA, CMMG, et al) w/ a chrome-lined, true 5.56 chamber, M4 barrel & a reliable BCG (e.g., BCM or LMT) would suffice, for me. And an old style CAR stock would be lighter than the M4, CTR, SOPMOD or and most any others. |
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No pencil barrel? A barrel is only as stable as its narrowest point, so if you're able to live w/ an M4 contour, no reason to exclude a lw barrel like a Colt 6520. the added weight of an M4 contour over a 6520 is pure wasted weight.
Your best bet would be a Noveske N4 Light carbine. Order the upper, wait a half a year or so, then set it up as you want it. Or bug Denny into finishing his LW operator. In terms of now, with time/price as considerations, get a 14.5in M4 setup w/ perm flash hider; next choice would be 16in M4. Chromelined. Plastic standard hadnguards. bingo. |
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I don't want a pencil barrel because I'm not after a pure lightweight build. I like the M4 platform and want to know what the lightest M4 is. I know what you're saying about the M4 cut being and that is one thing I like about the N4 upper.
I'm really wondering why a 6920 is 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? |
| Looking at their (RRA) upper build specs, they use their R4 Heavy barrel for their entry tactical uppers. Looking at their selection for their R4/M4 barrels, one finds that the barrel is heftier than what I find under most M4/M4gery handguards. They have the barrel to make the weight more comparable to what most are used to. However, I don't see it in their upper offerings. Perhaps it would be more of a custom request through them. |
I say go with the 6920: other than the barrel length, it seems to meet your requirements. Remove the carry handle and add a lightweight BUIS and it could possibly weigh in at under 7 pounds fully loaded. Of course I'm a bit prejudiced: I just got a 6920 this past week. 
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I don't want a pencil barrel because I'm not after a pure lightweight build. I like the M4 platform and want to know what the lightest M4 is. I know what you're saying about the M4 cut being and that is one thing I like about the N4 upper. I'm really wondering why a 6920 is 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? You are delusional... a lightweight barreled gun and an M4 are the exact same gun except for the barrel. All other parts are the same or can be the same from the receivers to the springs, buffers, FCG, stocks, etc. The best place to save weight if it is a concern is in the barrel. Why would you even consider an N4 of any type if this is the case? Its not an M4 profile... just like a lightweight profile is not an M4 profile. Your arguement against the lightweight is ridiculous. Its like you are asking what is the fastest car but dont want one with a turbo because you are wanting a "sports car" configuration. Again an N4 is NOT an M4... totally different barrel profile. If you are OK with an N4 you are OK with a lightweight barrel. The differences in weights you reffered to come from weighing with commercial vs milspec buffer tubes and stocks, some are gun and mag with no ammo some are gun with no mag, some include a detachable carry handle some dont. Some have double heat sheild handguards some dont. You will never notice the difference in a 7.7 vs a 7.5 pound M4 configured gun so dont even concern yourself with that. If you care about handling or how heavy it feels or a REAL weight savings, you want a Colt lightweight. Its the best lightweight out there and as you have been repeatedly told is what you are wanting whether you are willing to admit it or not. Past that you want a T1 for an optic, a Surefire Scout for a light, and a DD M4 (Not the Lite) rail for a rail and you want it installed before you do a permanant flash hider or else you will want to run the Omega. The M4 rail is lighter than the M4 double heat sheild plastic handguards but only with no rail covers... and its because it uses an aluminum barrel nut. I have used one before and the only issue is the possibility of fucking it up during install... after that you will never notice you have an aluminum barrel nut other than the weight saved. Its very obvious you dont have a lot of familiarity with what you are trying to build and I have been in your shoes before... just trust that everyone is telling you... you are wanting the lightweight barreled Colt. You cannot come up with any logical reason to say you dont. Its the same profile as an M4 barrel under the handguards. You will never notice a differnce other than the reduced overall weight and a less nose heavy feel... you wont gain accuracy, reliability, or anything else for your uses. |
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I don't want a pencil barrel because I'm not after a pure lightweight build. I like the M4 platform and want to know what the lightest M4 is. I know what you're saying about the M4 cut being and that is one thing I like about the N4 upper. I'm really wondering why a 6920 is 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? You are delusional... a lightweight barreled gun and an M4 are the exact same gun except for the barrel. All other parts are the same or can be the same from the receivers to the springs, buffers, FCG, stocks, etc. The best place to save weight if it is a concern is in the barrel. Why would you even consider an N4 of any type if this is the case? Its not an M4 profile... just like a lightweight profile is not an M4 profile. Your arguement against the lightweight is ridiculous. Its like you are asking what is the fastest car but dont want one with a turbo because you are wanting a "sports car" configuration. Again an N4 is NOT an M4... totally different barrel profile. If you are OK with an N4 you are OK with a lightweight barrel. The differences in weights you reffered to come from weighing with commercial vs milspec buffer tubes and stocks, some are gun and mag with no ammo some are gun with no mag, some include a detachable carry handle some dont. Some have double heat sheild handguards some dont. You will never notice the difference in a 7.7 vs a 7.5 pound M4 configured gun so dont even concern yourself with that. If you care about handling or how heavy it feels or a REAL weight savings, you want a Colt lightweight. Its the best lightweight out there and as you have been repeatedly told is what you are wanting whether you are willing to admit it or not. Past that you want a T1 for an optic, a Surefire Scout for a light, and a DD M4 (Not the Lite) rail for a rail and you want it installed before you do a permanant flash hider or else you will want to run the Omega. The M4 rail is lighter than the M4 double heat sheild plastic handguards but only with no rail covers... and its because it uses an aluminum barrel nut. I have used one before and the only issue is the possibility of fucking it up during install... after that you will never notice you have an aluminum barrel nut other than the weight saved. Its very obvious you dont have a lot of familiarity with what you are trying to build and I have been in your shoes before... just trust that everyone is telling you... you are wanting the lightweight barreled Colt. You cannot come up with any logical reason to say you dont. Its the same profile as an M4 barrel under the handguards. You will never notice a differnce other than the reduced overall weight and a less nose heavy feel... you wont gain accuracy, reliability, or anything else for your uses. I appreciate your help in paragraphs 3 & 4 but a colt 6520 is NOT what I want regardless of how many times you or anyone else tell me it is. I simply don't want a pencil barrel. I think I may have went about this thread the wrong way. Again, my goal is not purely a light weight build, otherwise I'd go with a cavarms lower and pencil barreled upper. I like the M4'ish platform and did not know why you see such a range in weights. Who wants a heavy gun? So I was hoping I could get guidance as to how I could build the lightest M4'rgey or what brand I can buy. As to the N4 vs M4, according to Noveske the N4 light's profile only differs from the M4 by not having the M203 cut which is useless as I never plan on having any sort of grenade/flare launcher. Therefore I feel the N4 is a valid option. This thread is just going the wrong way as some people want to tell me what I want so I'm going to go about this in a different manner. Thank you to everyone who helped! |
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I don't want a pencil barrel because I'm not after a pure lightweight build. I like the M4 platform and want to know what the lightest M4 is. I know what you're saying about the M4 cut being and that is one thing I like about the N4 upper. I'm really wondering why a 6920 is 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? You are delusional... a lightweight barreled gun and an M4 are the exact same gun except for the barrel. All other parts are the same or can be the same from the receivers to the springs, buffers, FCG, stocks, etc. The best place to save weight if it is a concern is in the barrel. Why would you even consider an N4 of any type if this is the case? Its not an M4 profile... just like a lightweight profile is not an M4 profile. Your arguement against the lightweight is ridiculous. Its like you are asking what is the fastest car but dont want one with a turbo because you are wanting a "sports car" configuration. Again an N4 is NOT an M4... totally different barrel profile. If you are OK with an N4 you are OK with a lightweight barrel. The differences in weights you reffered to come from weighing with commercial vs milspec buffer tubes and stocks, some are gun and mag with no ammo some are gun with no mag, some include a detachable carry handle some dont. Some have double heat sheild handguards some dont. You will never notice the difference in a 7.7 vs a 7.5 pound M4 configured gun so dont even concern yourself with that. If you care about handling or how heavy it feels or a REAL weight savings, you want a Colt lightweight. Its the best lightweight out there and as you have been repeatedly told is what you are wanting whether you are willing to admit it or not. Past that you want a T1 for an optic, a Surefire Scout for a light, and a DD M4 (Not the Lite) rail for a rail and you want it installed before you do a permanant flash hider or else you will want to run the Omega. The M4 rail is lighter than the M4 double heat sheild plastic handguards but only with no rail covers... and its because it uses an aluminum barrel nut. I have used one before and the only issue is the possibility of fucking it up during install... after that you will never notice you have an aluminum barrel nut other than the weight saved. Its very obvious you dont have a lot of familiarity with what you are trying to build and I have been in your shoes before... just trust that everyone is telling you... you are wanting the lightweight barreled Colt. You cannot come up with any logical reason to say you dont. Its the same profile as an M4 barrel under the handguards. You will never notice a differnce other than the reduced overall weight and a less nose heavy feel... you wont gain accuracy, reliability, or anything else for your uses. I appreciate your help in paragraphs 3 & 4 but a colt 6520 is NOT what I want regardless of how many times you or anyone else tell me it is. I simply don't want a pencil barrel. I think I may have went about this thread the wrong way. Again, my goal is not purely a light weight build, otherwise I'd go with a cavarms lower and pencil barreled upper. I like the M4'ish platform and did not know why you see such a range in weights. Who wants a heavy gun? So I was hoping I could get guidance as to how I could build the lightest M4'rgey or what brand I can buy. As to the N4 vs M4, according to Noveske the N4 light's profile only differs from the M4 by not having the M203 cut which is useless as I never plan on having any sort of grenade/flare launcher. Therefore I feel the N4 is a valid option. This thread is just going the wrong way as some people want to tell me what I want so I'm going to go about this in a different manner. Thank you to everyone who helped! Sorry you are once again incorrect. Thats not the only difference. Its different under the handguards and thinner profile in front of the gas block than an M4. Its a totally different profile. As I said... the point of using a lightweight barrel is NOT to make an ultimate lightweight. The barrel thats identcial to an M4 profile WOULD be a lightweight... it has removed all the excess in front of the gas block to make it the same size as the smallest part of the M4 The straight taper on the N4 is smaller than the largest part of the M4 but larger than the smallest part and its larger under the handgards than an M4. You take 3 rifles sans barrel and they are all identical.. Colt lightweight, M4 and N4... the differences there are ONLY in the sizes of the profile tapers. The lightweight is the lightest and you wont see ANY additional utility from going got a heavier profile for your uses. You can ignore the facts if you like but that is the reality of the situation. A lightweight is an M4 with the most useless weight in the worst position removed, everything else is identical. You keep acting like a lightweight barrel is somehow not as durable or accurate as an M4 for semi auto offhand shooting with a dot sight... and thats a fallacy on your part. You have stated you want to remove unecessary weight but insist on a barrel profile that has uncessary weight. How does that make sense? |
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Get a 14.5" M4 upper from LMT or Colt or CMMG with a YHM phantom or Vortex flash hider to equal 16". Use standard plastic handguards. Run an ARMS40L or Troy flip rear sight. Run it on a normal lower with all A2 parts (stock and pistol grip). Run a GI magazine. Done.
My lightweight: CMMG 14.5" M4 with YHM 5C2 Phantom Break Plastic single shield M4 handguards Larue rear BUIS Stag Arms Lower & LPK & stock tube Magpul CTR stock Magpul MOE pistol grip It's perfect, the only addition I'd make is a Aimpoint T-1 scope with Larue mount. |
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I don't want a pencil barrel because I'm not after a pure lightweight build. I like the M4 platform and want to know what the lightest M4 is. I know what you're saying about the M4 cut being and that is one thing I like about the N4 upper. I'm really wondering why a 6920 is 1.55lbs lighter than a RRA entry tactical? You are delusional... a lightweight barreled gun and an M4 are the exact same gun except for the barrel. All other parts are the same or can be the same from the receivers to the springs, buffers, FCG, stocks, etc. The best place to save weight if it is a concern is in the barrel. Why would you even consider an N4 of any type if this is the case? Its not an M4 profile... just like a lightweight profile is not an M4 profile. Your arguement against the lightweight is ridiculous. Its like you are asking what is the fastest car but dont want one with a turbo because you are wanting a "sports car" configuration. Again an N4 is NOT an M4... totally different barrel profile. If you are OK with an N4 you are OK with a lightweight barrel. The differences in weights you reffered to come from weighing with commercial vs milspec buffer tubes and stocks, some are gun and mag with no ammo some are gun with no mag, some include a detachable carry handle some dont. Some have double heat sheild handguards some dont. You will never notice the difference in a 7.7 vs a 7.5 pound M4 configured gun so dont even concern yourself with that. If you care about handling or how heavy it feels or a REAL weight savings, you want a Colt lightweight. Its the best lightweight out there and as you have been repeatedly told is what you are wanting whether you are willing to admit it or not. Past that you want a T1 for an optic, a Surefire Scout for a light, and a DD M4 (Not the Lite) rail for a rail and you want it installed before you do a permanant flash hider or else you will want to run the Omega. The M4 rail is lighter than the M4 double heat sheild plastic handguards but only with no rail covers... and its because it uses an aluminum barrel nut. I have used one before and the only issue is the possibility of fucking it up during install... after that you will never notice you have an aluminum barrel nut other than the weight saved. Its very obvious you dont have a lot of familiarity with what you are trying to build and I have been in your shoes before... just trust that everyone is telling you... you are wanting the lightweight barreled Colt. You cannot come up with any logical reason to say you dont. Its the same profile as an M4 barrel under the handguards. You will never notice a differnce other than the reduced overall weight and a less nose heavy feel... you wont gain accuracy, reliability, or anything else for your uses. I appreciate your help in paragraphs 3 & 4 but a colt 6520 is NOT what I want regardless of how many times you or anyone else tell me it is. I simply don't want a pencil barrel. I think I may have went about this thread the wrong way. Again, my goal is not purely a light weight build, otherwise I'd go with a cavarms lower and pencil barreled upper. I like the M4'ish platform and did not know why you see such a range in weights. Who wants a heavy gun? So I was hoping I could get guidance as to how I could build the lightest M4'rgey or what brand I can buy. As to the N4 vs M4, according to Noveske the N4 light's profile only differs from the M4 by not having the M203 cut which is useless as I never plan on having any sort of grenade/flare launcher. Therefore I feel the N4 is a valid option. This thread is just going the wrong way as some people want to tell me what I want so I'm going to go about this in a different manner. Thank you to everyone who helped! Sorry you are once again incorrect. Thats not the only difference. Its different under the handguards and thinner profile in front of the gas block than an M4. Its a totally different profile. As I said... the point of using a lightweight barrel is NOT to make an ultimate lightweight. The barrel thats identcial to an M4 profile WOULD be a lightweight... it has removed all the excess in front of the gas block to make it the same size as the smallest part of the M4 The straight taper on the N4 is smaller than the largest part of the M4 but larger than the smallest part and its larger under the handgards than an M4. You take 3 rifles sans barrel and they are all identical.. Colt lightweight, M4 and N4... the differences there are ONLY in the sizes of the profile tapers. The lightweight is the lightest and you wont see ANY additional utility from going got a heavier profile for your uses. You can ignore the facts if you like but that is the reality of the situation. A lightweight is an M4 with the most useless weight in the worst position removed, everything else is identical. You keep acting like a lightweight barrel is somehow not as durable or accurate as an M4 for semi auto offhand shooting with a dot sight... and thats a fallacy on your part. You have stated you want to remove unecessary weight but insist on a barrel profile that has uncessary weight. How does that make sense? Again, you're not helping and I don't appreciate you attacking me. You're not listening to what I'm saying. I DO NOT WANT A PENCIL BARREL; Plain and simple. I did not say that's the only difference, Noveske did. So I am not wrong, but thanks. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lcb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status= 
14.5" Cold Hammer Forged Barrel, 1 in 7" twist, 5.56mm ––Made of Mil Spec M249 Machine Gun barrel steel, with heavy M249 Chrome Lining, (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16) ––Extended Feed Ramps ––Mil Spec Phosphate finish ––Same weight as M4 barrel, 1 lb, 9 oz, but improved contour for maximum rigidity, no M203 notch ––MP HP tested with certification ––Carbine length gas system ––Flash suppressor available permanently installed for non-NFA use (standard option), or removable on SBR and select fire models (call in all NFA weapon orders). ––Shot peened and MP tested bolt ––Properly staked carrier key ––Auto carrier ––Mil-Spec receiver extension, staked ––H Buffer ––Vltor Carbine buttstock ––Tango Down pistol grip ––One 30 rd mag included Basic Configuration ––Flat-top upper receiver ––Standard M4 type handguards, (double heat shield) ––Fixed front sight base, F marked ––Flip-up rear sight ––6 lbs, 3 oz At no point did I say anything about the durability of a pencil barrel or any barrel for that matter, so do not try to put words in my mouth. I know that I personally will never see a difference in function between a pencil, M4, or HBAR barrel.You apparently have comprehension problems, so I'll say it again: this is not a pure lightweight build, I like the M4 platform/style, and want to know how to get the lightest M4 style rifle. Trying to tell me I want a pencil barrel does not accomplish that goal. So if you would be so kind, please go instill your wisdom elsewhere because it is neither wanted nor appreciated! Telling me, for example, a milspec buffer tube is lighter than a commercial buffer tube, a XYZ billet lower is lighter than a forged lower, a usgi mag is lighter than a PMAG, or DD M4 handgaurds are lighter than double shield plastic guards would be helpful information. (I'm not saying any of the examples are true, I do not know, hence this thread being created) As for the RRA being heavier because of it being HBAR under the HG, my entry tactical is lightweight under the HG though it was an option when I ordered so I guess that could be. |
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