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Posted: 11/14/2016 7:04:38 PM EDT
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Hello,
I am looking to build an AR that can reach out 500 yards plus. I only have experience with a 16" and 10.5" AR with just red dots. I had been looking at one of Noveske's Gen III 18 Inch uppers but was curious if anyone has experience with this upper or if I should look in a different direction. This is entirely new to me so forgive me if its a redundant topic. The barrel I heard is very important with this build so I need to be conscious of rifling as well right? I.e. 5R or 6R etc Thank you |
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I would look at getting a Rainier ultra match barrel, Larue, WOA, Lilja, compass lake, krieger, Obermeyer barrels, Bartlein, lothar walther etc...
Your going to want match grade ammo along with a nice higher powered scope to achieve 500 yards. I also would go with a 18" rifle barrel 1/8 twist. |
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Are you simply shooting man-sized paper / gongs at 600? Or do you want to shoot groups at 600? Or consistently, no questions asked, kill shit at 600?
Im finishing a 16" 308 build myself right now. Half of me wished i went 6.5 CR instead. Calibers and barrel lengths aside, the best think you can do is try to keep it light weight. Im aiming for 8lbs with a scope. |
| Great information. So, the 18 might not be necessary? I plan on shooting at different ranges but its more of a I like to know that 500-600 ish yards wont be a problem. 1/8 twist noted. So you guys not feeling the Noveske stuff? my 10.5" has a rainier rock creek 223 wlyde barrel and its pretty accurate for the short barrel. |
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Length won't effect accuracy, but it will effect velocity.
If you want long range, you want a longer barrel. If you are making a gun to shoot from a bench, and aren't worried about weight, I'd get a 20" or longer. I would get a 1:7 or 1:8 twist. The longest Sierra MatchKing that can be magazine loaded requires a 1:8 or faster (77g) If you want something you can carry around, you may have to compromise velocity by going with a shorter/lighter barrel. You never mentioned caliber, so fair game: consider 6.5 Grendel for better long range ballistics than a .223 (assuming you don't want to go to a an AR10 type platform). I don't have a Grendel, but am considering building a "match" type AR. I thought about 6.5, but really don't want to get into a whole new caliber, so probably will stick to .223 myself. |
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If you want to play around at 500+, get a longer barrel. Hypothetically they're no more accurate than a short barrel. In practice, they are more consistent and not as ammo finicky as a shorter one.
Fuck light. At 500 yards you're going to magnify everything you're not doing right. ARs are already tougher to shoot than a bolt gun, making it light makes it worse. I'd go with a 24" WOA .875" at the gas block barrel. If that's too much, I wouldn't go under 20" That 18" Noveske is not known for stellar accuracy. It's a lighter 3-gun kind of barrel. |
| Had a WOA 18" SPR Barreled upper just for this reason...would do what you are looking for as far as 500-600yds with variety of 77gr ammo (really liked old SSA 77gr over BH...go figure). A guy saw it on the range one day, asked to shoot it and proceeded to offer me 2x what I paid for it, minus the optic. ...I really liked that upper. Bought the same upper with a 16" barrel...shoots just as good at same distance. |
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I have an a4 clone 20" with ACOG it rocks to 400 but either me or the setup gets flaky at 500.
I then have a white Oak Precision 26"with the Nikon 4-16x ARscope it shoots 8-10 inch groups at 500 yards using the BDC reticel no adjustment needed. 
500 is as far as I can shoot in FLA but next summer I am going to WY again I have shot prairie dogs at 750 with this rifle. NOT FIRST SHOT or anything cool but I will start learning how it performs at 700& 800 link to white oak |
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I think you need to give more consideration to an optic. While a 16" is capable of hitting targets at 600-yards, a red dot is going to give you (well me at least) a lot of trouble. A 2-MOA red dot is going to cover about 13 inches at 600-yards. Even if you can identify and see your target without any magnification, your red dot is going to obscure over a foot of it. Unless you're shooting a REALLY big target and not concerned about precision, a red dot simply will not cut it. At a minimum, I would consider a 1-6x optic, if not more magnification. Something that gets you up over 10x...maybe up to 15x would be much more useful. |
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Wait this is a 556 discussion? Well gee, i guess i need to spend more time looking at what section im in.
OP, ive had an 18" 223 wylde build that i eventually parted with. 
It would do 1/3 MOA occasionally with custom ammo, and 1/2MOA on factory hornady 55gr ammo 100% of the time. It was ridiculously heavy, 12.5lbs. I had a 4-16 optic, and found that actually seeing your groups are next to impossible beyond 300 yards. So yes, you will be able to consistently hit a 12" square with a red dot or low power scope. But if you want inch sized groups - and actually see them stack ontop of eachother too - you need some pretty hefty glass. Think literally like a 3lb 5-20 power for example. Otherwise the reticle marks blocks like 4 inches of the target at max power. So i ask again, what are you shooting? Is this an actual target rifle? Or do you simply want to hit human sized gongs anywhere in a 100" pattern at 600 yards? We cant give you answers until you answer this because the answers between each are completely different ones. If i remember right, out to ~600 my rounds would drop like 70 inches. Its quite significant, youre literally lobbing rounds like a mortar. -Target gun with <1/2 moa accuracy? You want a 24" pipe, and make the rifle as heavy as you possibly can, and then buy a $1500-$4000 6-24 optic or even higher. The reason why is because of VELOCITY - it is 10x easier to get consistent groups with a laser than it is with a football. -Do you want to just bang steel? You can do it with an 7.5" SBR and a red dot, or literally any run of the mill el-cheapo AR from walmart with a set of irons for that matter. It probably wont do more than leave a very mild dent on steel at these distances. -Do you want to KILL things at these distances? Like coyotes for example? Again, goes back to #1, where you need as much velocity as you are willing to physically carry in the fields. |
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Depends on what your usage of the rifle is for? If it is just a range/target gun and weight isn't an issue then you might as well do a 20"+ bull barrel and get the velocity out of it. If your going to be packing it around and want to keep it light then go with the 16" or non-bull barrel 18".
500+ yards and you are going to need a nice scope though for good accuracy. |
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here is the optic I have on my white
nikon monarch-223 4-16xoak 
that is the reticel to give you an idea of drop to 600 I am happy with it to 500 I am not really familiar with the wholeprocess of doping a scope and computing clicks but really that is 308- 300 win mag stuff anyway. so I really like the BCD reticels on this scope and the ACOGS note 300 yards is easy /the Army has targets at 300 yards in basic training iron sights Marines train out to 500 yards in basic on irons . If I remember the DRM & SPR doctrine properly they are only expected to reach out to around 800 yards past that snipers, or indirect fire & CAS take threats. I f you want to shoot 1000 meters you need to go 6.5 or 300 win mag. 308 is not an easy 1000 yard round despite the fact many many shooters do it. it takes special scope mounts ect. |
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16" is all you need for 500 - 600 IMO. A quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist SS barrel slinging 77s is plenty capable at that distance. If shooting out to 700+ I'd reluctantly opt for 18" to get the velocity bump. Maybe if you're only punching paper. Terminal effect (even with most expanding rounds) really wants a 20" tube for the extra fps. |
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Quoted: Maybe if you're only punching paper. Terminal effect (even with most expanding rounds) really wants a 20" tube for the extra fps. Quoted: Quoted: 16" is all you need for 500 - 600 IMO. A quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist SS barrel slinging 77s is plenty capable at that distance. If shooting out to 700+ I'd reluctantly opt for 18" to get the velocity bump. Maybe if you're only punching paper. Terminal effect (even with most expanding rounds) really wants a 20" tube for the extra fps. & I'm guessing you read that on a thread somewhere & decided it was the gospel.  |
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Go with a 16" 1-7, or 1-8 twist. Shoot 70 grain or up rounds.
I personally see no reason to own an AR15 with a barrel longer than 16". If you have to move to 18" or 20" to gain 100 more FPS then you need to change to a more appropriate caliber. Again, different strokes for different folks. |
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Quoted: Go with a 16" 1-7, or 1-8 twist. Shoot 70 grain or up rounds. I personally see no reason to own an AR15 with a barrel longer than 16". If you have to move to 18" or 20" to gain 100 more FPS then you need to change to a more appropriate caliber. Again, different strokes for different folks. Exactly.... & if you plan on suppressing.... you damn sure want to keep the OAL shorter. 18" - 20" is the point of diminishing returns when it comes to 5.56. I will reach for my 18" Mod 1 over the 16" Holland if I'm shooting steel out to 800 but for 600 & in, I'll take the shorter & lighter option every time. FWIW, 77gr SMKs/TMKs out of a 16" smack plenty hard @ 600.... definitely more than paper punching ass still behind the pill at that distance. Can't speak for terminal ballistics but many a hadji can attest to the effectiveness of Mk262 out to 800 slung from a Mk12. The gain from 16" to 18" is not significant, shot placement is going to be the key factor as to effectiveness that far out, not velocity. |
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Quite the unicorn.... & about as believable. 
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It would do 1/3 MOA occasionally with custom ammo, and 1/2MOA on factory hornady 55gr ammo 100% of the time. Quite the unicorn.... & about as believable.
Must be those magic cherry picked three shot group barrels, liberally sprinkled with Pixie dust. Now, some barrels can do that with match grade ammo, really good match grade ammo, but most of us mere mortals cannot shoot any rifle that well. I have a five shot average 1/2 MOA at 100 yards Lilja match AR 15 barrel, but it often cannot get there because of . . . me! I've never gotten it down into the threes (.3 MOA) with anything. Not even with match grade Berger 52 FB handloads in Lapua Match cases, benchrest primers, benchrest case prep, individually hand weighed charges down to .1 grain, laddered for good node location, shooting from a good front rest and rear rabbit ear bag, a high quality 6-24x50 scope with 1/8 MOA reticle, and using a 1.2 lb trigger with my very best breathing and trigger technique. I guess I just don't have enough Pixie dust. |
| Bison Armory = much bang for the buck. My 16" BA shoots consistently tighter than my 18" Douglas. The Douglas is no slouch but the 16" does shoot a bit better... thinking barrel harmonics may be a contributing factor... shorter OAL / less barrel whip.... theory only, nothing to back it up. |
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Quoted: That's why I love the forums, lots of information. I would to hit human sized targets yes. So looks like I should go 16" for overall best results. What barrels should I consider? I would like noveske but I heard someone say they're not known for accuracy |
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That's why I love the forums, lots of information. I would to hit human sized targets yes. So looks like I should go 16" for overall best results. What barrels should I consider? I would like noveske but I heard someone say they're not known for accuracy There is no need to spend $400 on a barrel. I have had a few Rainier Arms match barrels that were capable of 1/2" - 3/4" MOA with good match ammo. They run about $250 and are guaranteed to shoot under 1 MOA or your money back. Spend that money saved on a trigger or optic, or ammo. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It would do 1/3 MOA occasionally with custom ammo, and 1/2MOA on factory hornady 55gr ammo 100% of the time. Quite the unicorn.... & about as believable. http://i.imgur.com/MgpnTGR.jpg 3 shot groups aren't worth the paper they're printed on & I'll point back to this gem of a statement which motivated my reply - "and 1/2MOA on factory hornady 55gr ammo 100% of the time".
A few of my sticks will print .5 - .75MOA & occasionally smaller groups when I'm on my A game but NO ONE shoots .5MOA groups w/ a gas gun 100% of the time. |
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Quoted: There is no need to spend $400 on a barrel. I have had a few Rainier Arms match barrels that were capable of 1/2" - 3/4" MOA with good match ammo. They run about $250 and are guaranteed to shoot under 1 MOA or your money back. Spend that money saved on a trigger or optic, or ammo. Quoted: Quoted: That's why I love the forums, lots of information. I would to hit human sized targets yes. So looks like I should go 16" for overall best results. What barrels should I consider? I would like noveske but I heard someone say they're not known for accuracy There is no need to spend $400 on a barrel. I have had a few Rainier Arms match barrels that were capable of 1/2" - 3/4" MOA with good match ammo. They run about $250 and are guaranteed to shoot under 1 MOA or your money back. Spend that money saved on a trigger or optic, or ammo. Absolutely agree. |
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Since you already have a 16" barrel I suggest you buy or load some match grade bullets and try it at 500/600 yards. You need a 1/7 or 1/8 barrel and you need 75/77 grain bullets. You may be pleasantly surprised or you may need a better barrel.
Rack grade barrels can shoot match grade bullets surprisingly well. Match grade barrels won't make crap FMJ bullets shoot great. For the best accuracy you need both. |
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& I'm guessing you read that on a thread somewhere & decided it was the gospel.
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16" is all you need for 500 - 600 IMO. A quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist SS barrel slinging 77s is plenty capable at that distance. If shooting out to 700+ I'd reluctantly opt for 18" to get the velocity bump. Maybe if you're only punching paper. Terminal effect (even with most expanding rounds) really wants a 20" tube for the extra fps. & I'm guessing you read that on a thread somewhere & decided it was the gospel.
Not at all. Math.... it's your friend. Know the expansion floor of the projectile you are using, BC, MV, and figure it out. I know what my 20" gun does, and what my 16" will. At 500 yards, that extra 100-150fps may determine if you are consistently above the expansion threshold or not. While shot placement may be the most critical factor in effectiveness, expansion can be a valuable enhancement. |
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It would do 1/3 MOA occasionally with custom ammo, and 1/2MOA on factory hornady 55gr ammo 100% of the time. Quite the unicorn.... & about as believable.
http://i.imgur.com/MgpnTGR.jpg Proof positive that the gun will NOT shoot 1/2 MOA 100% of the time. It didn't there, even with handloads, which are not "factory ammo." |
| Op what ever happens make sure you appraise what accuracy you are achieving honestly. Lots of talk of super sub moa on the internet. The reality is it is very hard. Read the fine print on accuracy claims if you see 3 round groups wave that off right away. The internet is full of confirmation bias. People have something and they want others to think it is good. I have shot many different barrels and many of them shoot more than good enough to meet the criteria you are looking for |
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Quoted: Not at all. Math.... it's your friend. Know the expansion floor of the projectile you are using, BC, MV, and figure it out. I know what my 20" gun does, and what my 16" will. At 500 yards, that extra 100-150fps may determine if you are consistently above the expansion threshold or not. While shot placement may be the most critical factor in effectiveness, expansion can be a valuable enhancement. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 16" is all you need for 500 - 600 IMO. A quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist SS barrel slinging 77s is plenty capable at that distance. If shooting out to 700+ I'd reluctantly opt for 18" to get the velocity bump. Maybe if you're only punching paper. Terminal effect (even with most expanding rounds) really wants a 20" tube for the extra fps. & I'm guessing you read that on a thread somewhere & decided it was the gospel. Not at all. Math.... it's your friend. Know the expansion floor of the projectile you are using, BC, MV, and figure it out. I know what my 20" gun does, and what my 16" will. At 500 yards, that extra 100-150fps may determine if you are consistently above the expansion threshold or not. While shot placement may be the most critical factor in effectiveness, expansion can be a valuable enhancement. I'm curious what pill you are using that's achieving expansion at 500+ yards? The short & sweet, recommending a 20" barrel for shooting 5.56 out to 600 screams "I don't know near as much as I claim to know", a 20" tube is overkill to the point of absurdity & it's damn sure a stupid idea if you intend to suppress at some point. Honestly, even 18" is overkill for the caliber unless you really want to reach out to the edge of the envelope. The extra 2" is of noticeable benefit shooting out to 800 but for 600 & in, as I said before... 16" is more than adequate when paired w/ 77gr SMK/TMK... & not for just punching paper. Of course if you're rocking a 20" 5.56... I'm guessing it's primarily being used for punching paper anyways as you damn sure won't be carrying that pig around in the field more than a time or two. Heavy & long sucks big time in the woods. Disclaimer - I run cans on everything so always think in terms of barrel + can when it comes to OAL & weight so I do have a bias towards going w/ the shortest tube needed to get the job effectively done. Not arguing that there isn't a velocity gain going w/ a longer barrel, just saying that gain isn't worth the weight & length penalty w/ 5.56 & that the velocity split between 16"/18"/20" @ 500+ impacts dope more than terminal ballistics when it comes to an SMK/TMK. If the intent is a bench gun to shoot groups on paper out as far as you possibly can than length & weight don't really matter but if this is going to be a SHTF grab & go type rig.... lighter & shorter is so much better for so many reasons. Just my .02 & worth about as much. |
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