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Posted: 12/20/2007 9:53:21 AM EDT
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Taking my rifle back to a K.I.S.S. rifle. I had fun playing warrior wanna be with all the rails, dots, VFG, lights & lasers, blenders, remote starters & cappucino maker attachments. Now I am taking my weapon back to what a civilian shooter NEEDS rather than wants. No more "tacticool", if I really needed that I would've re-enlisted a long time ago. I am selling off my rails & crap. I put my M4 furniture back on, kept the Hogue grip & enhanced trigger gaurd & thats about it. I may keep my dot & BUIS in the safe for hunting, but I want an A2 carry handle again. What are your thoughts about quality of the A2 carbine, 6/3 marked, carry handle? NOW keep in mind, I am not in combat, not going into combat & the chance of zombies actually taking over the world are very slim here in "realityville". Also a "Red Dawn" situation happening in the remainder of my lifetime (age 36) aren't that promising either. Help me out. What are the pro's & con's about DPMS carbine carry handles? Worth the $$? Kirbage |
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Yeah, we will never see civil unrest, cat 5 storms, power outages, breakdown of urban infra-structure, outbreaks of flu, or general hooliganism. All of your "needs" can probably be meet at Cheaper than Dirt. Get something Chinese and help fuel their arms build-up. You realize none (ok most) of us really don't worry about zombies or killer clowns from outer space (much). This is just a tongue in cheek way of discussing situations that will require some real knowledge, guts, and preparation to survive. You sound like someone who respects quality and does not spend foolishly, DPMS seems to be a good product. I say get it or something similar in quality and if you don't like re-sell on the EE. |
| What kind of BUIS do you have already? Unless it is a flip-up, I don't see what the carrying handle would do for you. If it is a flip-up, I would get the LaRue Tactical BUIS. It doesn't have the knobs like the A2 sight which can get moved accidentally. Unless you are shooting past 300m, that's all you need. |
Refrain from this kind of posting please. |
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I am not an Operator, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. I would keep the red dot. For anything that you can anticipate using your rifle for, the red dot is more intuitive, faster, and more accurate under duress than trying to utilize a standard A2 sight. Unless you're just THAT good with irons, I would see the red dot as a way of using technology to your advantage. We're not, as civilians, likely to take 300m head shots anyway - that's why I have an EOTech myself. I DO have a weaponlight though, because I think that also would be a realistic advantage. I also think that ignoring the possibility of civil unrest due to nuclear detonation, powergrid failure (terrorism) or other disaster-induced anarchy (whether regional or national) is somewhat naive. Sure, it aint going to be the russians, but that don't mean it can't happen (see also: LA riots, New Orleans, Florida x 5 with hurricaines, 9-11, WWI, WWII, the great depression, etc etc). Unlikely yes, but possible. YMMV. |
The bolt on carry handles are fine. They pop up all the time in the Equipment Exchange for cheap. ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=7&f=119 |
+1 i actually prefer them for a basic carbine to the flat top. i'd leave the rails on it, just becuase they are already installed and if you ever NEED a rail you'll have it. also i tend to prefer them to the round handguards in general even if just covered. |
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| I kind of agree with you, I was thinking about what I am likely to be using my AR for, and what I have been using it for and as such what do I really need. I have an Armalite M4C and I use my AR as a carry around farm gun mainly shooting pigs and a coyote here and there. As such I have an EoTech 552, quad rail forarm, Wolfeyes 9D Raider light, and a vertical forarm grip. It is MUCH easier to get a bead on a fast moving pig with the holo sight as I do not have to aquire the front and rear sight, I just put the dot on the pig and squeeze. We hunt them at night a lot so I have the light, and I find having the vertiacal forarm grip helps a lot with both the pressure pad for the light and if you hold your hand out in front of you it naturally takes on a vertical position rather then a horizontal position so I find it very easy and intuitive to use. Maybe it has more "stuff" on it then a KISS gun, but it fits my needs well so it is as it is. I had thought about a laser or a NVD, but I really do not need either (although a NVD would be fun!) so I do not have them on it. If a basic KISS style AR fits what you need it to do then go for it. I see a lot of guns on here with all sorts of stuff on them that are probably not needed, but if the owner likes having whatever it is they have their AR then good. That is one of the great things about these guns, they can be taylored in so many wyas to fit an individual owners needs/wants. |
That's not a rifle! That's a pistol with a stock on it!  (Just giving you crap because I'm jealous - no money for an SBR anytime soon...  )
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Quoted: I am not an Operator, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. funny shit lol We're not, as civilians, likely to take 300m head shots anyway - that's why I have an EOTech myself. where i live between the hills, mountains and trees you cant see 200m no less make that kind of shot hell the ranges here are only 100 yards |
First of all, let me congratulate you on seeing the light All my ARsare KISS, and I've never felt the least handicapped by that.Second, re the DPMS carry handles, last time I looked, the elevation clicks were one minute of angle, not the half minute that issue pieces have. Now that might be OK, if the elevation scale was adjusted for one minute clicks. It's not.  The scale is set up for the standard half minute clicks, which means that the range markings on the scale are useless.Now I did see a note awhile back indicating that DPMS was going to go to half minute clicks on the elevation scale, but haven't been able to confirm. So if you're going to a DPMS piece, I'd check it out before putting any money down. If the elevation wheel goes all the way around, so the 3/6 mark ends up where it started, it's got half minute clicks and you're in good shape. If it only goes a tad over half way around, it's got one minute clicks, and I personally would go to another brand; Colt. Bushie or? (Edited to Add) Just checked out the Numrich (Gun Parts Co.) listing for the Stag piece. If they are in fact Stag, that's a hell of a good price. You'll not do any better. 
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have you thought about leaving it as is and starting a KISS project? It seems like to me that much of the high speed kit also has some practical uses. Home defense, hunting, competition etc. A free floated barrel that also allows you to attach a bipod, light, sling attachment point just makes sense. IMHO, I would think it makes sense to keep your initial investment instead of losing money and build you another KISS just the way you want it. Just an idea |
Wow.. another "KISS" thread... What is so "Complex" about a rail???? or a light to see??? or heres a good one.. a Red Dot that allows you to actually hit a target in no or low light???? Can you do that with a "KISS" carbine??? What's that.... Don't need to you say???? then it matters little what kind of AR you have...run what ever and enjoy... Cause a "Civillian" shooter really does not need an AR period.. based on your thought process... |
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Kirbage I have built many AR15's. Recently I've gotten 3 Fudds to build their own. In each case the first was a 20" flat top with varibale power scopes for varmint & target work. When they ordered their stripped lower receivers I strongly encouraged them to buy two. Even if they thought they'd never want another AR. Also, given the politcal climate, current prices (read:cheap) and the true fun and pride you get from building your own weapon. So far each guy has wanted to follow up the 20" varmint build with a KISS 16" A2 carbine. I recommend you keep your railed and VERSITILE weapon and buy the parts you need to build your KISS carbine. Keep an eye on the stuff forsale in EE. Pick up your major componants there & then pick some suitable vendors for the other stuff like lower parts kits & barrels. If that sounds like the route you want to go, drop me a private msg & I'll give you a list of the vendors I prefer for my builds. |
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uxb, Nice rig. What is the barrel profile? Did you go HBAR to add a little swing or keep it light? I cannot wait to get a short barrel and supressor. Another thought, if you already have a flat top, you can use the LMT back up rear sight. It is basically an A2 handle without the handle. I have one and it is built like a tank and co witnesses nicely with my EOTech. The LMT will cost about as much as a decent removable carry handle. The only with this type of thing is that parts tend to grow into other guns...... R/ Mike
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Gov't profile beneath the handguards. Have had HBARs in the past, but now all my retro SBRs are 0.625" in diameter and everything else is Gov't. |
+ a million. |
No, you are everything but correct... I have all the fancy pants military stuff on it. I have had it in that configuration for about 5 years. I have gone through more CR123's just from messing around or having my M5 trun on in my case & not know it than actually using it. The VFG is nice, but the mag well does the same thing (if needed). My laser is not legal to hunt with so all that is, is a battery waster as well. The rails are only there to put the laser,light & VFG on. So that alone makes my carbine full of things "I" don't need & also makes my "carbine" weigh more than an AR-15 20" standard battle rifle... Don't give me your crap about -- "Cause a "Civillian" shooter really does not need an AR period.. based on your thought process..." I believe everyone should/could have one!! I just don't see any need for all the "Armchair Warrior" gadgets on them that don't get used regularly... Anymore. It's like all these "has beens" or "wanna bes" that get all dolled up in camo & armor, wearing a M.I.C.H. helmet to go to the shooting range... It's all for show. I've taken a carbine class & all the hoopla, I know how to use my weapon & have no problem using it (if the situation were to ever arise), but come on... Will it ever... Really? Probably not in our lifetime. I saw more "I want the military life, but not join the military" type people at that class than I thought actually existed (out of highschool, anyways). I'm not saying that "civies" shouldn't own AR's... I just think it is rediculous to "play army" when you are to old to be playing video games. I mean come on, we are grown men & women. It is like I always say "we're not in highschool anymore, you better quit sticking your chest out before you pass out." I'm gonna get a cheap little rail that attaches to my M4 handgaurds to put my M5 light on IF needed & that is about it. The rest can realy on my shooting skills of 20+ years. I don't need a dot to tell me where I'm aiming (although it does make it alittle easier ). |
EXACTLY!!!! Beautiful piece... Simple & effective. |
Thanks.  She gets the job done and does it reliably.
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It all comes down to user preference and intended use. I have a simple 16” A2 carbine without the vertical grip and other fancy accessories. I love this light-weight, simple AR. But this also isn’t my primary home defense weapon. My primary home defense weapon is an SBR. I wanted a short weapon to allow better mobility around my house. I also believe a home defense weapon should have a weapon mounted light. (I still think the user should also have a handheld light too, but that’s another story. ) So, I run a SureFire scout light since it is also small and light weight. The light is easier to operate while I’m using a vertical grip. Holding the magwell is a bad idea IMHO for ME (as they say YMMV) for two reasons. I can control the weapon much better with a vertical grip a few inches further out than the magwell. Also, in the event of a catastrophic round failure much of the pressure is vented out the magwell. I don’t NEED a vertical grip, but I run the gun better with one and I want all advantages I can get with a home defense weapon. A quality sling helps me retain the weapon in a scuffle or fall and also allows me to go hands free without setting the weapon down. Because of the light I’m running and the way I like to hold the weapon, I need a sling mounting point just forward of the receiver. A sling mounted all the way at the FSB is in the way. So, I need a rail if for no other reason than attachment points for the light, sling and vertical grip. As for optics I’ve actually been timed at the range with iron sights and different optics. I am much faster on target with an Aimpoint. That is just a fact for ME. With a home defense weapon I’ll take every advantage I can get. Aimpoint it is! Long story short, a KISS home defense weapon absolutely requires a light, vertical grip, sling, Aimpoint and rail. (Now, do I dare mention the silencer or will some of you pass out? )Decide what works best for you and go with that. Don’t worry about what other people use. It all comes down to user preference and intended use. Best regards, Mark |
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Quoted:. I saw more "I want the military life, but not join the military" type people at that class than I thought actually existed (out of highschool, anyways). Ditto I'm not saying that "civies" shouldn't own AR's... I just think it is rediculous to "play army" when you are to old to be playing video games. I mean come on, we are grown men & women. It is like I always say "we're not in highschool anymore, you better quit sticking your chest out before you pass out." [ Judging by some of the posts on ARFCOM I'd question this.
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+1 on the weaponslight. As a civilian, I think the proper identification of any target is of great importance. |
did you take your meds today
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You could do anything you think is right to your AR, for me I've been shooting KISS for more than 30+ years and I'm tired of it, won't give up the good new stuff. If I would do it myself I would keep the light, dot sight and BUIS, that's the minimum I would go. For detachable carry handles, how about an A1 type, it's more KISS than the A2 carry handle, the adjustments won't get accidentally changed. I know a couple of A1 detachable carry handles but there could be others out there, the CNC Gunsmithing and the Superior Arms. There's a pic of the CNC Gunsmithing sight mounted on an ARFCOM SEBR carbine posted by TheMocoMan on this pic thread, about mid page. M4 PICTURE THREAD RESURRECTION!! (Page 5) link CNC Gunsmithing website link Superior Arms Inc. website link (look down near the bottom of page) |
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Thanks for your input everyone... I am sure that you will no longer be hearing from me as the news that I may buy another AR-15 is possible. I will be dead. On the other hand is I sell my Thompson & maybe my bolt gun, I just might pick up a K.I.S.S. rifle in the form of an M14??? And keep my AR as just a toy with gadgets... Thanks again, the nearly departed, Kirbage |
This is pretty much my idea of the perfect K.I.S.S. weapon, also. Plenty capable of whatever you need it to do in the properly trained hands. The ONLY difference between this one and the one I carry everyday, is that mine has an A2 upper instead of an A1. |
Kirbage
You sound like you discovered this great secret and so now the rest of us "Armchair Warriors" are just running al that gear to live our fantasies...
 20 years from now.. your guys will be running "KISS" thread about how you going back to plain old red dot's and rails.. cause you don't need all the "Armchair Warrior" crap to play your "Colonial Marine" fantasy with all the computerized ThermoElectro MK 12 Mod 0 aiming modules that put the cross hair on the target for you... Anyone who considers a red Dot Sight as "fancy Pant's" in this day and age.. should get in there DeLorean and head "Back to the Future" And for God's sake.. get yourself a C-switch for your light before your continued usage of CR123's drives up the price and availability like 5.56MM....  |
I built my rifle around what I will NEED: I guess KISS means different things to different people, should the SHTF my wife and I will be protected. -YHM free-floated rail -YHM front flip-up iron sight -MATECH BUIS -WARNE quick-detach steel rings -Thunder Ranch TL-3 Streamlight weaponlight -KAC VFG and rails -VLTOR clubfoot stock (will hold 6 additional batteries) -Tango down handgrip (will hold 4 extra batteries)  Nothing wasted went into this build. |
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As you get older I guarantee optics become a necessity. I have 9 AR's and keep my match rifles Service Rifle simple. If one were to have only one AR I'd recommend an A2 NM from Colt, Rock River, or Bushmaster. It will fill any need you have to have. But, at my age I prefer a Colt M4 with Optics. I don't want to blow my neighbor's kid to bits so I think a light is necessary. After that not much is needed for Joe Public. I. however live 12 miles from the Mexican border and I travel the border pretty darn well armed. |
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