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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New 653 Build Questions (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/5/2009 8:43:57 PM EDT
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I'm starting to collect parts for my first retro build. For my first build, I thought I'd start out with something simple and decided on 653 carbine. I've been researching, and I think I have most of the answers, but I wanted to run them by you all to make sure I don't make any stupid mistakes.
Reciever colour. What colour are they supposed to be? Looking at US Anodizing colour chart, XM16 and M16's are Early Grey while SP1 and M-16A1's are supposed to be Pre-Ban Grey. US Anodizing's Early Grey looks like the XM Grey Nodak offers, while lighter Pre-Ban Grey looks like the Colt Grey I've seen on earlier SP-1's. Looking at the few available colour photographs of 653 carbines online, they look dark, but the US Anodizing's colour chart indicates M-16A1's are supposed to be lighter Pre-Ban Grey. I'm thinking 653's are M16A1 carbines, so it should be the same colour as M16A1's. The colour photographs that I have seen looks like M-16A1's are dark colour. What colour were they when 653 was initially produced at the factory? I'm guessing Early Grey or Nodak's XM Grey. Lower parts hardware. Looking at the colse-up photographs at Retro Black Rifle web site, all lower reciever hardware appears to be current parts. None of the pins are dimpled. So basically are all lower parts are same as current, except for the selector which has no tick on the right hand side? Upper parts. Looks like they're all current parts, except for forward assist. Am I correct? |
| Thanks Tex. I knew about slip ring, but totally forgot about the ejection port cover. I think I have everything either ordered or know where to get... except for barrels and stock. It looks like most AR parts have caught up with demand, except for barrels; they're still several months wait at most places. Since CMMG no longer sells pencil barrels, I'm thinking of having someone cut Bushmaster's 16" pencil barrel. But last time I called Bushmasters, they told me it'll be 4 months wait. I have EA's aluminum stock, the one with 4 position commercial receiver extension, but I'm still on lookout for either Colt original or at the very least EA's stock with 2 position extension. |
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NoDak is going to start making 2 position receiver extensions.
You could put your stock on one of those. They'll be military size, so you'll need something to help keep from rattling. I used velcro to make my Bushmaster stock fit correctly on mine. I hope to have pictures of my 653 IDF soon. Waiting on the lower to come back from engraving. Should be any day now. |
I've been checking Midway and Brownells, along with other usual places, but no-one has lightweight carbine barrels. I'll wait around until I have all necessary parts, and if I'm desperate enough, I may have M4 profile barrel re-profiled. I think AR15Barrels.com re-profiles the barrels for arm and a leg.. I wonder if they'll take my first born instead 
About the selector, do you have any source for the mid production selector, the one without the tick on the right hand side? I think I remember reading here that DPMS selector looks like the mid production selector. I haven't been able to find one locally to take a look. So you're doing IDF build? Wow, you're braver man than I am. I don't think I can stand tying my newly built rifle to my car bumper with parachute chord and drag it around for a week  Hehe. Kidding aside, what are you having your lower engraved? Colt Logo?
About your 653, are you going to leave your barrel 16" or are you going shorter? If shorter are you going 14.5 or 14.7? I remember reading here that either 45 Bravo or Heartbeat was working on extended A1 flash hider. |
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Midway does, as of this writing, have in stock the DPMS 16" Lightweight barrels one of which I'm using for my current 653 construction. For the moment I'm going to leave the barrel at 16".
Do any of y'all know which front sight post would be right: round or squared or either? |
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My upper already looks like it served with the IDF.
The lower and stock are going to get similar treatment when the lower returns. It will have the replica logo, AUTO marking and an outline of the Star of David like actual IDF rifles. I got a couple of closeup lower pictures from soldiers currently in the IDF. It will be 16" until I finish a couple of other projects, then I'll pay my $200 and get in line to SBR it. |
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The DPMS lightweight barrel profile doesn't look right.
The barrel looks like it is .750 to me. The space between the top of the barrel and the bottom of the front site doesn't look large enough. Compare it to the Doublestar barrel: I wonder if the picture is wrong, or DPMS's definition of lightweight is wrong. |
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Quoted:
Thanks Tex. I knew about slip ring, but totally forgot about the ejection port cover. I think I have everything either ordered or know where to get... except for barrels and stock. It looks like most AR parts have caught up with demand, except for barrels; they're still several months wait at most places. Since CMMG no longer sells pencil barrels, I'm thinking of having someone cut Bushmaster's 16" pencil barrel. But last time I called Bushmasters, they told me it'll be 4 months wait. I have EA's aluminum stock, the one with 4 position commercial receiver extension, but I'm still on lookout for either Colt original or at the very least EA's stock with 2 position extension. Even extended, no one will know that you have a 4 positon stock but you. The holes for positions 2 and 3 won't be visible. Save a buck and keep your buffer tube. And anyway, I understand EA won't be making 2 position stocks anymore. |
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The DPMS lightweight barrel profile doesn't look right. http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=817324 The barrel looks like it is .750 to me. The space between the top of the barrel and the bottom of the front site doesn't look large enough. Compare it to the Doublestar barrel: http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=866284 I wonder if the picture is wrong, or DPMS's definition of lightweight is wrong. I am getting tired of barrels being labled as light weight because they have a slight taper under the handguard, but still run .75" FSB and very slight dip out to the end. This is a Med barrel at best. IMHO. |
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I've been checking Midway and Brownells, along with other usual places, but no-one has lightweight carbine barrels. I'll wait around until I have all necessary parts, and if I'm desperate enough, I may have M4 profile barrel re-profiled. I think AR15Barrels.com re-profiles the barrels for arm and a leg.. I wonder if they'll take my first born instead
About the selector, do you have any source for the mid production selector, the one without the tick on the right hand side? I think I remember reading here that DPMS selector looks like the mid production selector. I haven't been able to find one locally to take a look. So you're doing IDF build? Wow, you're braver man than I am. I don't think I can stand tying my newly built rifle to my car bumper with parachute chord and drag it around for a week Hehe. Kidding aside, what are you having your lower engraved? Colt Logo?
About your 653, are you going to leave your barrel 16" or are you going shorter? If shorter are you going 14.5 or 14.7? I remember reading here that either 45 Bravo or Heartbeat was working on extended A1 flash hider. I'd stay away from there. Randall did great work for me on numerous barrels a couple of years ago, but he was kicked off ARFCOM. Check out this thread. ETA: I'd use ADCO or 45Bravo now. |
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If you are looking for a quality 16" pencil barrel go with a Bushmaster "superlight"... it is the right contour, chrome lined, very nice.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=7 Scroll down about 1/2 way. Mine is with 45Bravo getting shortened. Scott ETA - I have no idea if they have them in stock... I bought mine about a year ago (finally getting that project going). |
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If you are looking for a quality 16" pencil barrel go with a Bushmaster "superlight"... it is the right contour, chrome lined, very nice. http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=7 Scroll down about 1/2 way. Mine is with 45Bravo getting shortened. Scott ETA - I have no idea if they have them in stock... I bought mine about a year ago (finally getting that project going). I spoke with them today. They said 2-3 months for one. If you order they don't charge your credit card until it ships and they send an e-mail notification. With or without bayo lug is the same wait time. If you order it without the bayo lug the barrel is not threaded for a FH. I also spoke with a lady at Essential Arms about the aluminum stocks. She knew from the start what I wanted and didn't hesitate to say "no we don't have any and are not making anymore." |
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Funny how your perspective can change; two to three months doesn't seem that long anymore. So, achieving a new personal BRD milestone today, I decided the DPMS barrel, which is rolling with UPS right now, will be an interim barrel as I went ahead and got in line with Bushmaster for a Superlight.
An "interim" barrel. Egad. I did acquire an aluminum stock from Essential Arms last week. |
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653 Teaser
Shamelessly showing off my favorite gun. 
My barrel came from Randall at AR15barrels.com back when he was actually turning out work. He started with a J&T lightweight 16" barrel and cut it down to 14.7" and perm. attached the A1flashider. If I could have a SBR in the Republik of Illinois I'd spend the $200.00 in a heartbeat but, as it is I'll just keep my 653 clone.  Doc |
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Funny how your perspective can change; two to three months doesn't seem that long anymore. So, achieving a new personal BRD milestone today, I decided the DPMS barrel, which is rolling with UPS right now, will be an interim barrel as I went ahead and got in line with Bushmaster for a Superlight. An "interim" barrel. Egad. I did acquire an aluminum stock from Essential Arms last week. Is there a secret code for Essential Arms or did you get the last one? |
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In case someone else didn't answer... ROUND post front sight.
Don't forget the flat handguard slip-ring and six hole (vs. the newer 7 hole) handguards. I found the flat slip rings at R&R Arms (only 5 bucks ... but anodized black)... The 6 hole handguards should be available at CDNN (last ones I bought from them were Israeli... cool). If you're getting a stripped upper... the only place I've found A1 rear sight assemblies in stock is Bushmaster... they have the A1 flash-hiders too. Good luck finding a correct "rectangular" port door. Fulton Armory has some nice (and still cheap) A1 pistol grips... the last ones I bought included a nice mottled grip, one that looked almost new... and one that was just OK. Again, they were inexpensive. Have fun, when I get my barrel back, mine should look just like DocMikes... complete with IDF sling. Scott |
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Sorry, I've been away for couple of days.
About EA's aluminum stock, when I ordered mine, I was told that the stock with 2 posistion receiver extension was out, and they weren't restocking it any more. But the one with 4 posistion reciever extension was in stock. When I called, a lady answered in couple of rings, and when I called back few minutes later, she answered again in few rings. Maybe I was lucky? As for Bushmaster's superlight barrel, when I called, I was told 3 to 5 month wait. I really should place the order. |
| Chuck, as m1sniper posted, you need to quick pickup one of Bubbaguns 653 replacement barrels... |
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Chuck, as m1sniper posted, you need to quick pickup one of Bubbaguns 653 replacement barrels... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=455118&page=1� |
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You can also find slip rings in the "Pay it Forward" thread. Some idiot is just giving them away for free! 
He also has retro A2 pistol grips! Tex, I'd love to take up on the offer, but to be honest, I don't have anything to pay forward with. Without anything to offer the community in return, I can't take up on the offer. Maybe another time. Quoted:
Chuck, as m1sniper posted, you need to quick pickup one of Bubbaguns 653 replacement barrels... Quoted:
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Chuck, as m1sniper posted, you need to quick pickup one of Bubbaguns 653 replacement barrels... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=455118&page=1? Now you tell me. I just ordered my Bushmster superlight few days ago. I may have to cancelt the order and get the barrel from Bubbaguns. But I'm a little confused. How do I order from BubbaGuns? |
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I'm in the same boat. I just ordered a Bushmaster, too. I'm going to wait for confirmation from Bubba before I cancel the Bushmaster order.
To order, go to the thread M1sniper poster. Reply in the thread - something like "I'll take one" - then send him an IM to confirm. He'll get back to you at some point. I got one of the 20" barrels from him a few months ago and used it in a 604. They were nice barrels and these look to be similar, just shorter. |
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Quoted:
In case someone else didn't answer... ROUND post front sight. Don't forget the flat handguard slip-ring and six hole (vs. the newer 7 hole) handguards. I found the flat slip rings at R&R Arms (only 5 bucks ... but anodized black)... The 6 hole handguards should be available at CDNN (last ones I bought from them were Israeli... cool). If you're getting a stripped upper... the only place I've found A1 rear sight assemblies in stock is Bushmaster... they have the A1 flash-hiders too. Good luck finding a correct "rectangular" port door. Fulton Armory has some nice (and still cheap) A1 pistol grips... the last ones I bought included a nice mottled grip, one that looked almost new... and one that was just OK. Again, they were inexpensive. Have fun, when I get my barrel back, mine should look just like DocMikes... complete with IDF sling. Scott Handguard: I have 7 hole, but am looking for the 6 hole handguard. The one in CDNN looks like 6 hole, but it's listed as new. Is that the right one? The one on the Bushmaster's web site looks liek 6 hole also. Slip ring: I couldn't find one listed at R&R Arms. I know CMMG has them. A-1 rear sight assy: I already ordered one from Bushmaster. Thanks. Port door: I was under the impression that I can get a replica from Heatnbeat. If not, I'll have to find another source. A-1 pistol grip. I got mine from Fulton as well. Mine looks like it's had light use. Looks okay, but no motting. Charles Tait |
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Quoted: I'm in the same boat. I just ordered a Bushmaster, too. I'm going to wait for confirmation from Bubba before I cancel the Bushmaster order. To order, go to the thread M1sniper poster. Reply in the thread - something like "I'll take one" - then send him an IM to confirm. He'll get back to you at some point. I got one of the 20" barrels from him a few months ago and used it in a 604. They were nice barrels and these look to be similar, just shorter. Thanks, I just IM'ed for an order. |
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In case someone else didn't answer... ROUND post front sight. Don't forget the flat handguard slip-ring and six hole (vs. the newer 7 hole) handguards. I found the flat slip rings at R&R Arms (only 5 bucks ... but anodized black)... The 6 hole handguards should be available at CDNN (last ones I bought from them were Israeli... cool). If you're getting a stripped upper... the only place I've found A1 rear sight assemblies in stock is Bushmaster... they have the A1 flash-hiders too. Good luck finding a correct "rectangular" port door. Fulton Armory has some nice (and still cheap) A1 pistol grips... the last ones I bought included a nice mottled grip, one that looked almost new... and one that was just OK. Again, they were inexpensive. Have fun, when I get my barrel back, mine should look just like DocMikes... complete with IDF sling. Scott Handguard: I have 7 hole, but am looking for the 6 hole handguard. The one in CDNN looks like 6 hole, but it's listed as new. Is that the right one? The one on the Bushmaster's web site looks liek 6 hole also. Slip ring: I couldn't find one listed at R&R Arms. I know CMMG has them. A-1 rear sight assy: I already ordered one from Bushmaster. Thanks. Port door: I was under the impression that I can get a replica from Heatnbeat. If not, I'll have to find another source. A-1 pistol grip. I got mine from Fulton as well. Mine looks like it's had light use. Looks okay, but no motting. Charles Tait They are 6 hole, I got a set. |
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In case someone else didn't answer... ROUND post front sight. Don't forget the flat handguard slip-ring and six hole (vs. the newer 7 hole) handguards. I found the flat slip rings at R&R Arms (only 5 bucks ... but anodized black)... The 6 hole handguards should be available at CDNN (last ones I bought from them were Israeli... cool). If you're getting a stripped upper... the only place I've found A1 rear sight assemblies in stock is Bushmaster... they have the A1 flash-hiders too. Good luck finding a correct "rectangular" port door. Fulton Armory has some nice (and still cheap) A1 pistol grips... the last ones I bought included a nice mottled grip, one that looked almost new... and one that was just OK. Again, they were inexpensive. Have fun, when I get my barrel back, mine should look just like DocMikes... complete with IDF sling. Scott Handguard: I have 7 hole, but am looking for the 6 hole handguard. The one in CDNN looks like 6 hole, but it's listed as new. Is that the right one? The one on the Bushmaster's web site looks liek 6 hole also. Slip ring: I couldn't find one listed at R&R Arms. I know CMMG has them. A-1 rear sight assy: I already ordered one from Bushmaster. Thanks. Port door: I was under the impression that I can get a replica from Heatnbeat. If not, I'll have to find another source. A-1 pistol grip. I got mine from Fulton as well. Mine looks like it's had light use. Looks okay, but no motting. Charles Tait They are 6 hole Israeli surplus new and identical to Colt except they are matte finish. |
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The flat slip rings sold by R&R are listed under "DPMS accessories" then under "barrels".... the one I bought is listed as "DPMS Delta Ring A1 triangular" for $4.50. It was spot on except for being black. I was going to buy one from CMMG but they were 20 bucks plus there was nothing else I needed to order from them.
The Heatnbeat port doors have a "flat square" as on the 601s... the A1s have a rectangle... I e-mailed Jerell (nice guy for sure)... he said he cannot make the "rectangular" ones. Too bad because his stuff looks awesome. I'm ordering a few parts from him to finish a project soon. Scott |
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Go with a Bubbaguns barrel. I would have 45Bravo pin an A1 flash hider with a spacer if not SBRing it. +1 on the bubbaguns barrels. They are good to go. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b114/mentalstampede/Guns/Picture031_e01.jpg My 653ish carbine with a pinned SDI Extended A2. Nice rifle. I'm liking the 653 (but may do a 654 if I can grab a 604 upper somewhere) Did you do the FH or have it done? I know ADCO offers it and I assume they would use that SDI extended A2, also. Does anyone have a close up picture of the spacer with the regular A1? |
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Just info. Just recieved response from Bubba guns. All barrels are gone. There was a AD in Shotgun news a while back by Sarco for M16 Original Colt G.I. 14" barrels. I inquired about it a while ago, and I just recieved a response that it's still available. According to Mr. Earl Sellers form Sarco it is A1 profile 14.5" barrell. It's 295, so it's a little spendy, but it might be cheaper if you are thinking about having 16" barrel shortened. I ordered Bushmaster superlight, so I'm going to see if it will ship before I'll look into this. |
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Just info. Just recieved response from Bubba guns. All barrels are gone. There was a AD in Shotgun news a while back by Sarco for M16 Original Colt G.I. 14" barrels. I inquired about it a while ago, and I just recieved a response that it's still available. According to Mr. Earl Sellers form Sarco it is A1 profile 14.5" barrell. It's 295, so it's a little spendy, but it might be cheaper if you are thinking about having 16" barrel shortened. I ordered Bushmaster superlight, so I'm going to see if it will ship before I'll look into this. Are the Sarco barrels chrome lined? I've had mixed results ordering things from Sarco, would not order their stuff except as a last option. My Bushmaster barrels have all been nice. Worth the wait IMO. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Just info. Just recieved response from Bubba guns. All barrels are gone. There was a AD in Shotgun news a while back by Sarco for M16 Original Colt G.I. 14" barrels. I inquired about it a while ago, and I just recieved a response that it's still available. According to Mr. Earl Sellers form Sarco it is A1 profile 14.5" barrell. It's 295, so it's a little spendy, but it might be cheaper if you are thinking about having 16" barrel shortened. I ordered Bushmaster superlight, so I'm going to see if it will ship before I'll look into this. Are the Sarco barrels chrome lined? I've had mixed results ordering things from Sarco, would not order their stuff except as a last option. My Bushmaster barrels have all been nice. Worth the wait IMO. I'm not sure if Sarco barrels are chrome lined or not. I assumed it would be if it was M16-A1 carbine barrel, so I didn't ask. I'd ask, but the e-mail response took about 2 weeks. If anyone is interested, call and ask, and make sure that it's A-1 profile. Yea, I have Bushmaster barrel on order so I'm waiting for any word from them. It's been 6 days and not even an order confirmation.... Maybe I should call?? |
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Just info. Just recieved response from Bubba guns. All barrels are gone. There was a AD in Shotgun news a while back by Sarco for M16 Original Colt G.I. 14" barrels. I inquired about it a while ago, and I just recieved a response that it's still available. According to Mr. Earl Sellers form Sarco it is A1 profile 14.5" barrell. It's 295, so it's a little spendy, but it might be cheaper if you are thinking about having 16" barrel shortened. I ordered Bushmaster superlight, so I'm going to see if it will ship before I'll look into this. Are the Sarco barrels chrome lined? I've had mixed results ordering things from Sarco, would not order their stuff except as a last option. My Bushmaster barrels have all been nice. Worth the wait IMO. I'm not sure if Sarco barrels are chrome lined or not. I assumed it would be if it was M16-A1 carbine barrel, so I didn't ask. I'd ask, but the e-mail response took about 2 weeks. If anyone is interested, call and ask, and make sure that it's A-1 profile. Yea, I have Bushmaster barrel on order so I'm waiting for any word from them. It's been 6 days and not even an order confirmation.... Maybe I should call?? I guess I'll be waiting on a Bushmaster, too  When I initially ordered from them online I received an e-mail confirmation within minutes. I had to call them about something and got a computer, but eventually a helpful person answered the phone and took care of my questions.
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Nice rifle. I'm liking the 653 (but may do a 654 if I can grab a 604 upper somewhere) Did you do the FH or have it done? I know ADCO offers it and I assume they would use that SDI extended A2, also. Does anyone have a close up picture of the spacer with the regular A1? I did the pin job, and had a buddy who welds hit it with his TIG. Easy like sunday morning.
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I need your help locating few more small parts to finish my parts collecton. Anyway, here are the items I need your help with. Selector: I checked some of the past posts and it looks like Model 1 Sales carries selector without the tick? Can someone here confirm? Any other sources? Receiver Extension Locking Nut: The part I have does not have a notch to stake the receiver plate like the current locking nut has. Does the original part have such notch? I’ll probably modify my locking nut if it’s supposed to be there, unless another proper locking nut can be located easily. Receiver Plate: I remember reading in one of the older posts about proper receiver plate. Are there specific characteristics I should be looking for? The one which came with my EA stock looks okay to me, but what do I know. Can someone edu-ma-cate me on receiver plates? Ejection Port Door: I’ve been looking online but it looks like no-one has A1 port door. Outside of Gun Broker and EE, are there any other source? Front Sight Post: Are taller A1 front sight post for carbines, like the ones available for A2, available anywhere? Or is it just luck of the draw to find one? Bolt and Carrier Group: I was thinking of getting one from Bravo Company. The only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger is their logo on the carrier. Am I being too picky? Any other source for the BCG? Young seems like a good choice, but from what I hear, their production hasn’t caught up with the demand yet. I still have few more questions about the build, but that’s all the parts I need for now. |
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I need your help locating few more small parts to finish my parts collecton. Anyway, here are the items I need your help with.
Selector: I checked some of the past posts and it looks like Model 1 Sales carries selector without the tick? Can someone here confirm? Any other sources?
That's the consensus. They have them. Receiver Extension Locking Nut: The part I have does not have a notch to stake the receiver plate like the current locking nut has. Does the original part have such notch? I’ll probably modify my locking nut if it’s supposed to be there, unless another proper locking nut can be located easily.
Original Colt castle nuts were notched for staking, but it's not necessary. The orignal Colt nut is again kinda hard to find by itself as it is usually included with the stock. You might try Specialized Armament Warehouse, but they may only have the later Gen. 3 nuts. Receiver Plate: I remember reading in one of the older posts about proper receiver plate. Are there specific characteristics I should be looking for? The one which came with my EA stock looks okay to me, but what do I know. Can someone edu-ma-cate me on receiver plates?
Not much to say here. Standard egg or end plates for CAR's are kinda hard to find anymore. The EA one is the right one. Ejection Port Door: I’ve been looking online but it looks like no-one has A1 port door. Outside of Gun Broker and EE, are there any other source?
Try ARFCOM member 'Heatnbeat'. Front Sight Post: Are taller A1 front sight post for carbines, like the ones available for A2, available anywhere? Or is it just luck of the draw to find one?
They are around, but kinda hard to find. Again not required. I think we're all using A1 posts. Bolt and Carrier Group: I was thinking of getting one from Bravo Company. The only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger is their logo on the carrier. Am I being too picky? Any other source for the BCG? Young seems like a good choice, but from what I hear, their production hasn’t caught up with the demand yet.
If you have to ask if your being too picky...then you are. I use original period BCG or BCG's from Delton. Original BCG's are still common and probably the best way to go. Young BCG's are popular among the retro crowd.
I still have few more questions about the build, but that’s all the parts I need for now.
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Possibly of interest to some of y'all is a comparison of the lightweight DPMS 16" barrel (lower) with a Colt 16" pencil barrel (upper):
Some measurements taken with my dime store caliper: 0.5625" - Colt barrel forward of FSB 0.625" - Colt barrel at FSB 0.625" - DPMS barrel forward of FSB 0.750" - DPMS barrel at FSB No surprises; the DPMS offering is a lightweight barrel relative to most of what's available, but it's not quite retro light. Just for jollies, I calipered my CMMG 20" lightweight barrel while I was at it; it's 0.625" at the FSB and 0.594" ahead of the FSB. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New 653 Build Questions (Page 1 of 2)
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