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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New AR Question... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/24/2007 10:45:45 PM EDT
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Hello all! I just turned 18 and have wanted an AR my whole life for target shooting, cause i've always had a knack for any type of rifle shooting. be it air rifles, .22's and my .270 Win., i've been exceptionally skilled with them all. I am an NRA Sharpshooter ;) So i saw an AR in the gun store the other day and i put it on layaway, hoping to put in the final payments soon and take her home, my question is, i cant figure out which model it is specifically. I know it's a Bushmaster .223, and it's a Carbon 15. It looks like an M4, has the collapsable butt-stock and all and to me that's what i'm seeing there. I think i figured out what the name/model was but i cant remember where i found the picture of it... Any ideas? Also if anyone has had experience with one of these babies, what is your opinion of the gun? thanks so much! |
| Welcome to Ar15.com. The first thing i will say is you should probably research things before you buy them, not after. I have learned this the hard way too as i am only 19 and am very impatient. How much do you have left on the rifle? I would see if you could possible get your money back and build your own. That way you get what you want and at the same time get to know the rifle better. As for the carbon 15 i have no experience with it, so i cant say one way or the other. |
| When I was asking about the different AR-15 manufacturers and models available, someone mentioned to me to avoid the Bushmaster carbon models. They didn't mention why but that was good enough for me to stay away. The Bushmaster Patrolman model was one AR-15 that an experienced gun owner recommended to me as well as a Rock River Arms carbine. Don't jump in too quickly without doing your research or you may end up disappointed. You say that you could figure out what the name/model of the Bushmaster you put some money down for layaway. Didn't the gun store staff know themselves? Did you ask what model it is? In any case, look around before handing over your cash. Good luck. |
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Here is a link to Bushmaster's web page. You might find what you are looking for there.. BUSHMASTER CARBON AR-15 PAGE Gene |
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No the gun only says Carbon 15 on it, the model is a Carbon 15, but on the Bushmaster website it looks like the Model 4 (M4) version of the Carbon 15. Thanks for the help and advice, but it is afterall my first AR and it is a good gun i have been told by friends and family who are gun enthusiasts and considering the guy who owns the gun shop is a relative, he took care of me, if he wanted me to buy the more expensive ones, the 'better' ones, he would've, he told me that it is a great gun to get started, accurate, popular and reliable and that it was perfect for me. Thanks again! |
that is great and all...you are the one spending the money and going the be the one shooting it...i understand the relative thing, but do they REALLY know what they are talking about when it comes to AR's...just because he works at/owns a gun shop, that by no means makes him an expert. but...i would look through the various picture threads and see how many carbon 15 bushmaster's you see...not many if any! take the advise from people here who are serious shooters etc and look around and see what you REALLY want...i think if you really do your homework you wll find that the carbon 15 probably is not your best route to take. 
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Doug: Welcome to the world of AR15's. I don't know about others but to me it is good to see more young people getting into AR15's. I think I was 15 when my dad bought me my first AR15. It was an Armalite A2 HBAR. Anyways since it seems that you are intent of keeping your Carbon 15, let me suggest this. Just keep in mind that the Carbine 15 might be an ok entry level weapon for a young person, but that there are far better choices out there. Others may laugh me off the board for saying this but that is ok, I can take it. I am a firm believer in having at least 2 AR's if you are an avid shooter. One, such as your Carbine 15, used for a plinker and just for blasting away ammo and for your buddies to shoot etc. and another AR for serious use. Your serious AR should be top notch quality with no skimping on quality accessories. Your serious AR should be kept well maintained and not abused with high round count etc. The reason that I think that this is important is because we don't know what the future holds with regards to bans. The damn liberals are doing more than their share to smooth the way for the rise of the antichrist. In any case the day may well come when not only the rifles but also replacement parts etc. are difficult if not impossible to obtain. So if something gets broken or worn out then you are just SOL. It is also impossible to predict what the future will hold with regards to survival needs. So in a nutshell just keep this in mind for the future as you will probably get the blackrifle fever. Also be willing to always do lots of research before you purchase. I have been shooting AR15's and M16's for over 15 years and I still need to do a lot of research sometimes. Good Luck! |
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Hell with family members that recommend the Carbon15, who needs enemies? Ah, I am just joking, I have never even held a Carbon15. Welcome to the site first off. I don't have any valuable info to offer in regards to the Carbon15 but I have never heard anything great about it. If it were me, I would seriously reconsider. But that's just me. |
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Welcome to the site! That said, I would listen to the guys telling you to switch the layaway. Carbon fiber belongs on ricer cars, not AR15 receivers. You will regret the decision as you learn more about the AR15 in general. Bushmaster is a great gun, but the carbon15 is a novelty. Buy a standard Bushmaster instead. Some other good starter AR manufacturers (and by starter, I mean that you will be good to go right out of the box and won't have to build anything) are: Bushmaster Colt Rock River Arms Stag LMT (only sells uppers and lowers separately to civies) Seriously, you came to the right place for good advice. Now, you just gotta listen to it. Otherwise; well, it's your money... |
| While I may be new to this board I have already learned that there is a vast amount of knowledge here. The Carbon Bushmasters are indeed what most would consider sub-standard guns. I really encourage you to do some research if you don't want to take my or anyone on heres word for it. However if you decide to stay with the Carbon-15, keep it well maintained and watch the ammo. Carbon fiber doesn't crack it, it shatters and make tons of shrapnel. A cracked aluminum receiver will ruin your day, an exploding Carbon one will ruin your life. |
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I have to admit that in my lurking days, and since, I have never seen a carbon15. You have many options. I would definitely chose the standard AR route. I've only taken my stag to the range twice,including today. It's an entry-level rifle, but shoots very well and accurately, the only addition being a holosight. When I start my first AR project, I'll be able to appreciate high-quality components, where I feel they are needed. |
I"d be REAL suspicious if it only says 'Carbon 15' and not Bushmaster or Quality Parts anywhere. The Carbon-15s were sold prior to Bushmaster buying the company and had some unique and sometimes delicate parts. They did not have a good reputation for reliability. Something I can personally attest to. While Bushmaster has vastly improved the Carbon 15 line since buying the company, it's still not up to the abilities of the aluminum models.
No offense, but anyone who told you it's a "good gun" doesn't know jack about ARs. They could have been a 'gun enthusiast' for 80 years, that doesn't mean they know didley about the AR-15s. I've never met anyone who was sorry they bought a quality aluminum based AR - I have met several that were sorry they bought Carbons as their first AR. |
 I used to manage a Pawn/ gunshop for eight years before my Heart attack and becoming disabled, Anyways I had one of the Carbon 15s come in on pawn and they did not pick it up, and I sold it, then refunded it/ Sold it refunded it, and sold it and refunded it and now it sits in the back room. Thats the picture on Carbon 15s I remember. Bushmaster makes Fantastic AR-15s and that is what I would put my money into, In fact I just posted tonight about building a AR-15 SBR and these Guys on this site KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!, So I would listen to EVERY PIECE of advice that they offer to you as they are very helpfull, And I also want to wish you the best in being a Young Man and looking forward to a great lifetime of fun in the shooting sports,BUT BEWARE!!!, You WILL become addicted to this!.Best Regards, Don.  
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Well considering the guy who owns the shop has over 1000 guns in the place and sells tons on a regular basis, and also the fact that we've got the farm boy in our blood and we all have been shooting everything since we were kids does help. I understand it isn't top notch, but with the 2 jobs i have, getting through all my AP classes in high-school, getting into a good college and such i dont have (unfortunately) much time to shoot. I used to do the Junior NRA Rifle every tuesday, and after about 6 months i had to stop cause of work and school (mostly the college classes i was taking despite the fact that i was a Junior in High-School :P ). The greatest advice i have heard was that one gentlemen above who talked about owning 2 guns, one for serious sporting and one for plinking. And this gun will see the plinking. I dont have the money to spend 1100 dollars or so on a rifle. This gun DID however say Bushmaster and Carbon 15 and it is the M4 version as i believe i have already mentioned. I'm getting it, despite the advice i have recieved here not to, i will be lucky to get to the range once a week, so in all honesty, it seems to me that the difference between the echelons of my gun and the Top guns doesn't seem to make much a difference. Again thanks for the help, if/when i ever get the money to purchase another rifle, i will most certainly ask for advice on which one to purchase. And from what i have heard, most of yall havent heard anything great about them, but it seems i havent seen anything highly negative about them either. And as far as the carbon reciever goes, i have read in a few places (qualified sources) that the carbon is actually Stronger than the aluminum. If someone has a link to something credible that says otherwise Please show me that. I'm not aiming to be caustic here, quite the opposite in fact, i do appreciate the advice and help, but for me, my needs, and my uses, it seems a great choice. Thanks again. |
It's a fucking shame for you to have wasted so many peoples time. 
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I also have seen a lot of AR's but never a Carbon 15..also I have never heard anyone talk good about them. I don't know what deal you kin can get you but the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Flat-Top Carbine suggesting list is $1135 For $190 more you can get the Bushmaster Varminter Rifle (suggested list is $1325) Hint: You can buy the Bushmaster Varminter or the Bushmaster Varminter Special rifle off of gunbroker.com for $1025 If you like target shooting I think you would like the features this rifle has: Bushmaster Varminter Rifle 24" Fluted Extra Heavy Varmint Barrel Bushmaster Competition Trigger V Match Tubular Forend - “free-floats” the barrel I think I would definately shop the Bushmaster web site for more information Click on the XM15 series rifles & carbine link and take a look around. |
I was thinking the same thing  . I guess he has to make a few mistakes and become a bit more mature before he will heed others advice and feedback - which he asked for but still shined it all.
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I implore you, DougD720, to reconsider. While I will admit upfront that beyond holding a Carbon 15 I have no experience with them, I believe you will be best served by an aluminum gun. A quick search reveled several posts from people who have had issues with these guns, though that admittedly happens with all guns. It's just the instances seem more frequent with the Carbons. Please also consider that while I understand that you are buying from family and family with great experience with firearms, the people on this website likely have a great deal more experience with the AR-15. Listen to them and you will not regret it. I made my first purchase several months ago and I'm glad I listened to their advice. If this is to be your one rifle for a long time, perhaps forever, then it is all the more important that this be the best possible. Save a little longer, or build your own gun, or hunt for deals. You can get an aluminum gun without spending $1100. You will not regret going with the tried and true, traditional, style of rifle. While you may end up perfectly happy with your Carbon-15, I feel that your chances of long term satisfaction will rise sharply if you purchase an aluminum gun. You'll likely hold onto this rifle the rest of your life. Consider that. |
| With all of his college classes while in jr high, you'd think he would know that when they say carbon fiber is stronger than steel/aluminum, they dont mean impact resistant/shatterproof. It's brittle!!!!! kinda like nylon, VERY STRONG, but brittle as can be!!!! He's 18, he just wants that carbon fiber for coolness, no amount of advice is gonna sway that!!!!!!!!!! |
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Doug, Notice how alot of people in this thread have 20-70 post counts? Yet they have the same opinion as the guys with over 2000 on the carbon 15. They did what you are doing now, except they listened to the advice. A complete M4 upper on the EE with a good deal is going to range from $3-500, a stripped lower and LPK around $250. You will be walking away with a lot more for a lot less than going with the Carbon15/ Gunstores stock. |
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I did not mean to set the price around $1100 You can buy a "M4 type" AR for less than that, you can buy a regular AR for a lot less or build you own. Just a few on gunbroker.com Bushmaster E2S M4 A1 Carbine 16" $830 DPMS AR-15 M16 Panther Arms AP4 Carbine $825 Stag Arms Model 1 $814 Olympic Arms K3B $715 Not a big fan of Olympic but I believe I would buy it over a Carbon 15. It is your money and you can do with it what you want. But later down the road if you decide to sell it to buy a better rifle you might not be able to get what you want out of it. Something else to keep in mind if you will be shooting cheap ammo (wolf, Ultramax) look thru the threads here and find the one where the upper went kaboom. I'm not sure how a carbon upper would handle a kaboom. Might make a difference between life or death. Take a look at this: Kaboom 1 Kaboom 2 |
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You're probably like me in that you're stubborn and swear you'll never sell a single rifle, pistol or shotgun you buy. The fact is you never know. If you have a family one day or you need books for school and a serious issue arises, guess what, the Carbon-15 goes along with the AKs and what ever else you have purchased. There's just one problem, you will have to give away a carbon-15, literally, to get a nickle back. There's simply no reason for a plastic AR15 receiver which 99% of the people involved in the industry realize. I'm not really sure why you asked this question as your first post, it appears as if you knew the answer. Loaded questions around here won't gain you any favor. caveat emptor and your first page 2 now belongs to me SC |
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GOOD LUCK I got my First AR15 at that age. a COLT SAVE and wait PLZ #1 COLT #2 LMT these 2 are the best for PROTECTION/SHTF M4/CARBINE #3 STAG,Bushmaster XM,CMMG,RRA,Armalite in NO ORDER BTW there are some VERY SMART guys here to help you! FOREST is one of the GOOD Guys who help me out alot back in 2001 |
Sounds like you already knew what you were going to buy! Bushmaster has good service Im sure you will FIND OUT Ive had 2 Bushmasters regular and they ran 100% and never Jammed Ive seen CARBONS Hic Up |
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Thank you. I have spoken with my gun shop and he said he has never heard of anything going wrong, but i have not shut out the possibility that it is, a possibility. He said i could switch the layaway, perhaps ill go up there today and see what he has got, but unfortunately i do not think he has any AR's in my price range. I have a tight budget and unfortunately, despite my 2 jobs and recent birthday money, i have very little money to spare, family's in a bit of a money situation and i help out as much as i can, i havent spent much on myself yet all year and finally decided to get somethin for myself, but i dont wanna be spendin too much. Thanks for the help, i'm not tryin to be stubborn, just see that i am looking for an AR in my price range, and one which will fit my own useage habits. Thanks again! |
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With a carbon 15 you're spending more money for a less reliable weapon. If money is tight, I would suggest piecing the rifle together yourself, or at least the lower receiver. I just finished my lower and I'm debating whether to build the upper myself also or buy it complete. Decisions, decisions, I hate em'. ETA: The lower was very easy to assemble even without the punches that are recommended, it's not a huge project. |
No it doesn't. I don't care if he has a million firearms in stock, unless he's out shooting the ARs (and often) stocking an item doesn't give any 'insight' as how it holds up. Neither does being a 'farm boy' - humans need to learn things we don't get knowledge through DNA nor knowing how to operate a Winchester 94 have any bearing on how an AR-15 works.
For plinking ok it won't be bad, but don't expect the ruggedness and reliability of an aluminum built rifle.
You shouldn't need 1100 to buy a decent quality AR - especially if you have an uncle or friend in the business.
Of course the issues I've experienced are small compared to these guys (archived thread need to be a paying member) [Summary: failures to feed during an AR class, several people reporting excessive wear on the uppers ]. There are more such threads in the archives.
It CAN be strong under certain conditions and uses. Not always. Like any material use what is appropriate for the application.
Here is a neat little video a bike company came up with to show why you should select certain materials for bike frames and not others. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0zj6CKYXUo Notice when the tube failed it cracked open? If that was your upper during a KBoom guess what would happen? Notice while the aluminum also failed that test - it maintained it's integrity. I realize kids have to learn the hard way - but that is an expensive lessson. IMHO a Carbon 15 makes a better 2nd or 3rd AR rather than a first. |
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My opinion save the money you would spend on the C15 and then save some more and get a model that will be more reliable and I guarantee will have better resale value. I find it hard to believe that you say the shop owner is so experienced but claims to know of no issues with the C15. Of the 3 local shops that stock ARs here, none of them will stock the C15 and if someone tries to order one they will do their best to warn them of potential problems. I have yet to see you put a price to what you are paying for the C15. The ones I have seen weren't that much cheaper than a good aluminum receiver rifle. In the end do what you want but I think this thread serves as very fair warning. |
Yes, Carbon Fiber "can" be stronger than aluminum (steel even). When people mention this fact "Carbon Fiber is stronger than steel" They often leave out the most important part of that statement, which should actually read...."by weight Carbon Fiber is stronger than steel. So to have a carbon panel that is stronger than steel it would have to be thicker than an equivalent aluminum panel. It would still weigh less than steel and aluminum (not much less than aluminum though). If you've seen a Bushmaster Carbon 15 you would know that the thickness of the material is not anymore than a like aluminum receiver. That's what Bushmaster claims with these, "lightweight", for them to make a receiver out of Carbon that is as strong as aluminum it would have to be thicker than it's aluminum counterpart. I'll say it again...Push aluminum past it's breaking point and it cracks, if you are wearing eye protection chances are you'll survive probably without serious, or any, injury. Push Carbon past it's breaking point and it will basically explode, you will sustain some kind of injury. Carbon has it's place, and in that place it's a great material and I work with it everyday. I do not and will never believe it belongs on the receiver of an AR. I hope you get a gun you like and, if it's the Carbon, enjoy it, but do pay very close attention to what you feed it. Shooting any surplus, or anything but off the shelf .223 ammo, in a Carbon 15 is not something I would bet my life on.hinks None, of course are Carbon. |
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I will be taking a trip to the shop tomorrow and see what he has in stock, hopefully a nice used XM15 E2S M4, maybe a new one for a reasonable price. If not i do not know what i will do but if i cant find a decent M4 in the price range of 7-800 then i will probably stick to the C15. Thanks for all the help |
 welcome to the site+1 to the guys who are trying to give you some simple, cold facts (like opting for a quality forged AL lower over a carbon, eventhough i love bushy)....but if you choose to stick to your belives, dont let us stop you also, when you get to college and if you ever take any enginering type classes (like "structures" and stress/fractures), check us back when you realize that "stronger" sythetics (such as the carbon 15s, carbon fiber, etc) is a relative term metals are great b/c they can handle stress and unlike most "stronger" synthetics/plastics/carbons, etc, are not brittle and prone to break like glass when impacted (or be jamomatics in guns  )FWIW: as a teen, you may think that you know a shat-load and are a respectible bad-a**...but there are lots of guys here who have been there and done that (myself NOT included ), and are knowlegeable at thier respected, specific areas and when they offer a honest opinion, i'd listengood luck |
Last chance before the dance :Bushmaster AR-15 within your price range You'll find a few Bushmasters within your price range with chrome lined barrels without a drop of carbon fiber in the receiver. Look around and you will see that it isn't hard to find a decent AR-15 that is brand new and very good quality within your price range. If you still want to settle on junk, so be it. You get the gun you deserve... |
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I dont think i know a sh*t-load, in fact i will admit as far as AR's go, i dont know a whole lot other than how to put a hole through the bull's eye, nor do i think i'm a badass, ha, far from it. I do know that i cannot afford to spend a small fortune, and i do know that i am a good shot but unfortunately i cant afford top of the line. And unfortunately my layaway has my money locked in there so i have to buy from him but i didn't get to go up there today, work so i will go tomorrow morning and take a look around. Thanks for the advice. |
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The best thing for you to do is to build your own from quality parts, My rifle consists of stag, colt, and RRA parts three of the best builders in the buisness, it should be top quality from the tip of the flash hider to the end of the butt stock, i have seen where pple can actually take a carbon 15 and bend the lower back and fourth at the mag well main thing to remember DO NOT BY THE PLASTIC P.O.S. |
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I went in an switched the layaway over to a brand new Bushmaster A3M4. It cost me an extra 300 some bucks which is tougher considering i just got kicked out of my house by my alcoholic mother, ha, but i only owe another 450 on it and should be able to get the gun (hopefully) this week. Thanks for the help! |
a wise decision. I bought one of those a few years ago. It started out kinda like this:  then it morphed into this:  and now it looks like this:  you will have lots of fun customizing your rifle, trust me! |
please allow me to congratulate you on your decision to do this thing. I honestly feel you will be much happier with your purchase. delayed gratification can be a good thing.
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+1 You will be much happier in the long run. Now when you see someone at the range with a C-15, you can feel better about not wasting your mony and hopefully pass on a little advice too.
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I can't agree more with the other comments on here to congratulate you on the decision. You've have decided to make an investment rather than just "buy a gun". With the right care (what little they require) this can last your lifetime and you can pass it down. Remember once you get it PICTURES and let us know how it shoots. J |
Nice Les Paul... I think we need a guns and music picture thread on here...
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| I hope so. The gun looks nicer as well as being a better firearm so in about 450 bucks, which i will hopefully be able to come up with in about a week tops, i should be able to get about 350 tomorrow, i'm hoping so very soon ill be able to take her home and out to the range. Thanks for the help! |
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