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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New, need help... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/8/2013 7:43:45 PM EDT
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I am new to the AR scene, but am an avid shooter. I inherited an M16a1 upper that had been in the family since the mid 70's and would like to complete the gun to be able to shoot it. I believe I want to add an A2 style AR15 complete lower to it, but I am not even sure I am using the correct terms. I have been told in a couple of local gun stores that I need to check the pin sizes to make sure a new style lower will fit, but again I don't know exactly what to look for. The holes appear to be the same size. The barrel is stamped chrome and there is a full bird cage on the end. Although I don't know AR's I have done my fair share of gunsmithing and believe I would enjoy learning about this gun as I build and then shoot it.
Any and all guidance is welcome, as I am open to learning. Thank you for taking the time to read through this. |
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I'm up in the Allentown area if that will ever help you out. There is a shop in Quakertown called Donley's Gun Shop that builds AR stuff as well that would be a bit closer to you and may be able to help you out if need be.
What they are referring to on the pin size is the SP1s used a different size front pivot pin on them where the military rifles did not. If your pivot holes are the same size front and back you can use it on any new lower. The good news is that an A2 lower is getting easy and cheaper to find right now but is your upper black or gray? There will be many that will tell you to get a NoDak lower as it would be correct for an older build but you could always color match a newer A2 lower as well. ***EDIT*** Palmetto State has A2 lowers in stock right now if you wanted to go A2 lower here for $119 or $99 for a blem |
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The upper looks like it dates from the early 1980s - standard size holes on the upper. Easy to complete as you have the hard to get parts already, unless you want to change out the ejection port cover to an earlier look .... Quoted:
As mentioned, it is a small hole upper so that will make things a little easier. The barrel is a GI replacement barrel but no big deal and it looks like a solid start to a 603 build. These guys nailed it. ^^^^ And Nice start, congrats! |
would this be the right lower for him?
If so, OP, check out NoDak Spud! |
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Any thoughts on anything needed other then a lower to complete the build? Well, let's see... A BCG (bolt carrier group) CH (charging handle) A lower receiver LPK (lower parts kit...typically includes an A2 pistol grip, but you'll want an A1 grip instead, so...) An A1 pistol grip Stock (Type E would be appropriate, I think) Receiver extension (aka buffer tube) Buffer Buffer spring Sling and, yes, I'd replace the port cover with an older, "rectangular pad" one. But that's just me. And most the people around here. Nice upper to start with, though! People who own the SAK replacement barrels report they're good shooters. |
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Well I ordered a correct 603 charging handle, model E butt stock, A1 grip and a sling. I think I am going to try to find locally any complete AR lower for now. My efforts to locat one online have failed. Long waits at best.
If I can find a complet bolt assembly, does the finish matter? If so, what should I be lookng for by way of finish? Manganese Phosphate is what is listed, will any black do? |
| Welcome to Retro Land. You have gotten some great advice. The only thing I would like to add is that I agree with as far as doing a nice A-1 clone now 'cause once you are hooked you'll only end up redoing it if you don't do it now. It is relatively easy to do as far as clones go. |
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This is a 603/M16A1 rebuild I did last year. The upper assembly is from a USGI M16A1 (complete with BCG and CH). The buttstock, pistol grip, and sling are USGI as well. I used a modern LPK with a Nodak Spud NDS-16A1 lower. It shoots very accurately and smooth. I used a M16A1 like this when I was in the Marine Corps. from '78 to '84. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/James%20Rea%202013/021_zps3731b46d.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/James%20Rea%202013/021_zps3731b46d.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/James%20Rea%202013/020_zpse5e73095.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/James%20Rea%202013/020_zpse5e73095.jpg</a> Very nice looking! It brings to mind the question of correct finishes for a 603. My upper has a bit of "shelf ware" and I was debating if I should leave it as is or paint it. I have flat black Duacoat for another project and was wondering how close a match it would be? What finish did you use? |
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This is a 603/M16A1 rebuild I did last year. The upper assembly is from a USGI M16A1 (complete with BCG and CH). The buttstock, pistol grip, and sling are USGI as well. I used a modern LPK with a Nodak Spud NDS-16A1 lower. It shoots very accurately and smooth. I used a M16A1 like this when I was in the Marine Corps. from '78 to '84. <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/James%20Rea%202013/021_zps3731b46d.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/James%20Rea%202013/021_zps3731b46d.jpg</a> <a href="http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/James%20Rea%202013/020_zpse5e73095.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/James%20Rea%202013/020_zpse5e73095.jpg</a> Very nice looking! It brings to mind the question of correct finishes for a 603. My upper has a bit of "shelf ware" and I was debating if I should leave it as is or paint it. I have flat black Duacoat for another project and was wondering how close a match it would be? What finish did you use? When I originally built the rifle, the upper was painted black. Before I got ready to do the rebuild, I took some GunScrubber to it and found that it was XM Grey underneath. That led me to get a NDS-16A1 in XM Grey with a Battlefield Pickup finish. This matched the slightly worn finish on the upper. |
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He is and he would be but I haven't seen or heard from him in a bit. Has anybody heard from him?
The last I knew he was getting out of the retro parts game and moving. Nice guy and hope he's doing OK if he reads this 
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Bucks county Come to think of it, Heatnbeat (Jerrell Sharp) is up in your neck of the woods. He is a retro demi-god, poobah and guru and lives in Pipersville. He would be a great contact. |
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He is and he would be but I haven't seen or heard from him in a bit. Has anybody heard from him? The last I knew he was getting out of the retro parts game and moving. Nice guy and hope he's doing OK if he reads this
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Bucks county Come to think of it, Heatnbeat (Jerrell Sharp) is up in your neck of the woods. He is a retro demi-god, poobah and guru and lives in Pipersville. He would be a great contact. He is going through some changes, but I know he would certainly be available for Q&A. |
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You'll need a fixed stock one like an A2 as the M4 is a slider. The A1 stock like a type E and an A2 stock use the same tube it's just the A2 has a spacer in there that comes right out. You will need an A1 stock screw though as it's shorter than an A2 one.
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Just ordered a parked complete bolt group. Now to start looking local for the complete lower... Here is another dumb question... If I buy an A2 or M4 lower will the tub work with the A1 model E butt stock? Not sure I'm asking that right. |
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SAK barrels are great. Don't remember seeing an 'L' forge code - anyone remember what it stands for? LAR/Martin Marietta There were also LK forge marks, for LAR/Kaiser, so I'm guessing one company produced the forging and the other company finished it? Anyone know for sure? Not sure how early the LAR contracts started but they're still making ARs, I believe. |
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SAK barrels are great. Don't remember seeing an 'L' forge code - anyone remember what it stands for? LAR/Martin Marietta There were also LK forge marks, for LAR/Kaiser, so I'm guessing one company produced the forging and the other company finished it? Anyone know for sure? Not sure how early the LAR contracts started but they're still making ARs, I believe. The M is faint but it's there. you find them on commercial ARs from the 80s as well, maybe contract overruns. |
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I ordered a receiver extension tube, recoil buffer, recoil buffer spring, and buttstock cap screw as a kit for the A1. I grabed a set of take down pins while I was at it. I figured this will allow me to buy whatever complete lower receiver I come across. I believe the lower is all that I am missing at this point. I'll add pictures as the parts start to roll in and the group can advise me if I bought the correct parts.
I do have one more question though. What is incorrect about the current door on my upper? Where can I get the correct one? As alway, thank you for the help. |
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I ordered a receiver extension tube, recoil buffer, recoil buffer spring, and buttstock cap screw as a kit for the A1. I grabed a set of take down pins while I was at it. I figured this will allow me to buy whatever complete lower receiver I come across. I believe the lower is all that I am missing at this point. I'll add pictures as the parts start to roll in and the group can advise me if I bought the correct parts. I do have one more question though. What is incorrect about the current door on my upper? Where can I get the correct one? As alway, thank you for the help. Most answers regarding the variety of correct parts can be found in Ekie's stickied thread here. (There's also good info at RetroBlackRifle.) ...But since you're new, we'll make it easy for ya. 
The most obvious difference is in the reinforcing "pads" on the outside of the dust cover. The first doors (601s and at least most 602's) had a flat, square pad: 
Compare that to the second generation "rectangular" pad: 
The A2 came with the "modern" pad--it's square like the 1st gen, but it's not flat (the shape shows better from the side--look at the one on your upper). 
As for where to find the right one, that's a little more difficult. Most of us just keep a close look at the EE here on Arfcom or watch Gunbroker. You can also hunt at gun shows, though. Never hesitate to ask vendors if they have any small parts you can look through. You never know what treasures they might have tucked in a box of loose stuff! Now, before you say it...yes, it IS absolutely ridiculous that we place such an emphasis on little details like this (believe me, it ain't the smallest detail we'll call each other on!). But, hey. It's what we do! |
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First let me thank everyone that has assist me so far and also those that have just viewed the thread. Every comment so far has been helpful and to some degree I have taken an action on.
OlGunner, let me thank you for reading my mind on this one. Being new I looked at countless pictures trying to figure out the differences. The size difference was easy to pick up on, but it was not until you explained it that the light bulb went off that I have the modern door that is not just large, but triangle shaped from the side. I kept thinking I had an early one because it looked the closest to me. What I need is the middle one for a 603 build. To be honest, I love the fact that the members here are able to call out the differences. I am looking for that type of guidance and teaching. I'm a little proplexed on the lower at this point. I'm not finding anything out there and I'm starting to wonder that if I just gab the first one I come across, I'll be sorry later. What I mean is the more I learn and fourm member point out, the more I will be double buying. The good news is that I have been reading and watching uTub videos on lowers and I now feel I could assemble one if I can only find the casing. Here is a picture of the bolt group and charging handle. They went together easily enough, but the handle is a light color as compared to my upper. http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/BF311E80-A1C5-4D76-A654-BAD4FF9AF3D6-5903-00000B1D6C491C79_zpsb20e6182.jpg |
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I bought a complete AR-15 M4 lower receiver at one of my local gun stores today. I test fit what I have, envy thing was a nice tight fit and I was able to chamber and clear rounds with no issues. I'm still waiting for my model E buttstock, A1 grip and the A1 receiver extension tube, recoil buffer, recoil buffer spring, and buttstock cap screw. I will wait to test fire the gun until I have the configuration of parts I want on the gun.
On a personal note I believe my Father would be happy with the results so far. This was always a someday project for him that time slipped away on... Thanks again to all the members here that have guided me to this point. I'm sure i'llI still be asking dumb questions as I finish this project up. Here is my progress so far: http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/B603DC08-5BD4-4B44-9884-CD30011CDFF0-6481-00000B7CC2A9E933_zpsf7d081e7.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/D7DB3E9A-BCC9-449D-8DA4-6FCCD1C66F48-6481-00000B7CD0D64BB5_zpse9790d1b.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/F58C1628-6630-42EC-9C61-1120143E9025-6481-00000B7CEFE47607_zpse143acaf.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/41C86999-5B79-47F8-BB1C-F8E344C06CC4-6481-00000B7D00394A2A_zps922e92fc.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/10ADD8EE-7781-4805-8128-740FD9B3B3B6-6481-00000B7D1607E921_zps35e4118c.jpg |
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Hey, you have come a long way in a short time! Congrats--she's looking real good.
Enjoy the heck out of her and take pride in the build as it is--easily 95% of the people who see it won't detect anything "incorrect" about it. As for the little details that might be noted here, you can change things as you come across the right parts. Since it's up and running, there's no rush to detail it. Seriously--you started with a few parts and a goal, came here and asked questions, and are well started on what could lead to a vast collection (trust us). Well done! |
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INFECTED this one is. The RBRD is strong with this one. Quoted:
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.......but after studying what is truley correct, I see the many flaws. INFECTED this one is. The RBRD is strong with this one. But don't let it eat you up too bad 5437! Lots of us started off with less accurate guns and we recovered nicely. You've got to start someplace and you're off to a good start! 
That was my first Retro. My goodness all that was wrong with it! What you've made is very similar to what I made for my Father in Law. Vintage parts on an A2 lower. His is even earlier 603 parts too. 
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Thanks guys, I spent the night really cleaning and oiling the gun and what a difference! It's all one color and most of the markes came right off if it. I bought a 30 round Bushmaster magazine today and just found and ordered a second generation "rectangular" pad ejector door. It seemed "pricey" to me as it is a used take off, but if it is the one in the picture they showed it should be correct. It is one less thing I'll have on the list to correct. Next I'll be looking for the correct lower receiver parts to close the gap on the "correct build".
I do have a question on the cotton sling I have. I read different information as to if it is correct for the 603 build. It sounds like the nylon sling was used on most, but not all 603's. Any thoughts from the experts on here? |
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When I was in the Guard in the early 1980s, ours for the most part had the type "D" stocks and the nylon green slings. When anything got replaced, in came the newer type "E" stocks with the trap door, a black "silent" sling, the big round button assist, or the "A2" port door.
Not all M16A1s in the unit looked exactly the same ..... except for the lower, you have a early 1980ish weapon, and you can revise it for the earlier look as you find suitable parts. Good job. |
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I had a great day at the range today!!! Keep in mind that I have never fired an AR type of rifle before. The gun worked flawlessly for the 130 rounds I put through it. I was indoors at 25 yards. It shot a little low and to the left. I am sure most of that was me and the lack of knowledge about this guns trigger control. I did adjust the windage to compensate with success. I was amazed at how accurate the gun was. From a sand bag with the iron peep sights I was able to create a two inch hole in the ten ring. Recoil was not bad at all, though I did struggle with cheek weld and the butt was high in my shoulder pocket. All "one size fits all" issues. If it were one of my target rifles I'd be customizing it to death, but it will stay stock as my Dad wanted it to be.
Fun story is that a Nam USMC vet was in the lane next to me. When he heard the first shot he peered around the stall to see what it was. He said, "I know that sound" and came over to look at it. He then told me about what was different on mine then the one he carried. I explained that the differences were because it was a 603 and it sounded like he had carried a 601. He then told me a bunch of great old war stories about using the M-16 in combat. I let him fondle it and I offer him the chance to shoot it. He declined and said it would disturb his sleep tonight too much, but thanks. Great day... |
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Which sling type is that on your 603? Black cotton or nylon? I found a place with black cotton slings, but I'm still not real sure what would be correct for the early 80's time period. |
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My buddy was in the USMC 80 to 84 and he remembers black nylon slings, but can't remember if it was M1 or the silent type... He did say he had a type E butt stocks. It sounds like darn near any sling type could have been used...
Man this would be easier if there were charts that showed options for each model. It would become a "build" list of sorts. Wish I knew enough about the models to make them up. |
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Someone did do a comparison post and showed all the M1 slings in order of adoption with a start year.
The earliest cotton sling could still be found on M16A1s in Italy in 1974 according to my friend. Near as I can tell the only limiter is that you're not going to see sling X BEFORE a certain date. But any and all were available after. To add to the confusion, some of the "cotton" slings are really nylon. |
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Thanks for the reply. I'll look for the thread.
I got my first expensive taste of take off parts today. This was the listing with a picture of a perfect door, "Used, excellent condition M16 Early Style Ejection Port Door. Removed from destroyed M16 & Early AR-15 rifles. Use for that retro build." here is what I got: http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/8B609D48-D794-4258-8C5A-A23A1BA3220F-1933-00000337C443528C_zpsee1247ae.jpg It does not look excellent to me, Definitly not worth the price I paid. It is trash for what I want. Is this what I can expect from the M-16 vendors? |
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Thanks for the reply. I'll look for the thread. I got my first expensive taste of take off parts today. This was the listing with a picture of a perfect door, "Used, excellent condition M16 Early Style Ejection Port Door. Removed from destroyed M16 & Early AR-15 rifles. Use for that retro build." here is what I got: http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/58Bisc/8B609D48-D794-4258-8C5A-A23A1BA3220F-1933-00000337C443528C_zpsee1247ae.jpg It does not look excellent to me, Definitly not worth the price I paid. It is trash for what I want. Is this what I can expect from the M-16 vendors? OUCH!  Have you written the scumbag I mean the vendor? I would be trying to get my coin back on that!
ETA eBay? GunBroker? Most here will objectively rate a vendor on either site and most of us won't bid (much) against you if it's an auction. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New, need help... (Page 1 of 2)
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