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Posted: 1/2/2009 9:04:45 AM EDT
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I am going to a gun show in Columbus, Oh at Westland mall tomorrow, 03 JAN 09. My goal is to get my first black gun, though I have not decided between a G3 or a M-4. I also just confused myself more by looking at AR-10s and AR180s. What are those?
Anyway, I love the idea of having something that fires 7.62 NATO, but I also know that 5.56 is a lot cheaper to fire. I do not mind getting "Clones" of a model, it does not have to be HK but it sure would go nice with my USP .45 What are things I need to look for in any of the above specified models, and what should I avoid? Thank you in advance for all your help. |
| My first suggestion would be to slow down and do more research on all the rilfes before you buy. It may save you alot of money and problems. As far as G3 rifles stay away from the aluminum receivered rifles with the rail on top, i think they were made by Federal ORD and Springfield armory. they are junk. Stay away from CenturyArms brand also. Stick with the current PTR brand , they have a good reputation and good customer service . For the M4 do some research tonight on barrel twist 1-9 or 1-7 . Also on companies that sell them that you may encounter at a gun show. Colt, Bushmaster, Smith and Wesson , Rock river Arms. etc. Watch out for the single rifle on the table that may be used or put together by someone, it may be a deal but look at the features, barrel twist and chambering 223 or 5.56 and condition and quality of parts. After almost 30 years of going to gun shows here in Michigan i can tell you one thing, those guys are there to make money and will tell you all kinds of crap to get it. Knowledge is your best friend in this environment. Good luck and have fun. |
| Definitely go with a reputable brand from someone who doesn't look shady. Also, it depends on what you want the gun to do so you can determine the features and caliber. 5.56 may be cheaper but if you want some though to hunt big stuff with it may not be your best choice. You will have an easier time finding a 5.56 AR at a gun show but then again you will probably not find anything at all. Last couple gun shows I went to there were only 2 ARs and they were about $500 overpriced. But give some more info on what you are looking for in the rifle and I'm sure someone can help narrow it down |
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Yea, I'm going to have to agree with 1MrBean there. For a first rifle, with your level of knowlege, stick with the booths and tables that are from your local gun dealers and stick to complete rifles from known brands. It's better to pay a little too much and get something right than to save a little money and risk getting a pile of junk.
You asked about choice of caliber. If your only going to own one, I prefer the idea of opting for what the military currently uses (.223/5.56). Ammo availability is usually better, and durring times of relative peace there's a good supply of surplus to be had cheap. Same with the magazines, lots of selections, lots of surplus, and given the current political trends, going with the mag selection that's the largest may be an advantage. |
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Also think of it like this.
G3,ar10 7.62/.308 is about .80c to 1 dollar a shot. Ar15, AR180 .223/5.56 is about 36-42 cents a round. Doesen't sound like much but add it up and it's a huge difference. Also ir you get an AR you can get a Spikes .22lr upper. Swap out other uppers from 16in to 18 to 20 in all configurations with out much trouble. The AR platform is the way to go. |
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I'm no expert but I have bought several ar15 rifles. Before hauling off and buying something you may regret after you get it home and find out a little more about it. I'd checkout the vendors on this site,EE or a local gun forum in your state. My local forum classifieds always have guys buying and selling and honestly the prices are abit lower than in EE.
after finding this site and learning about what I what and fair prices for what I want –– I go to gunshops,gun shows etc and feel like stuff is overpriced after educating my self on here. no rush ––you'll get a good one wheter its tomorrow or 3 weeks from now |
| Definately stick with a new factory assembled rifle. I've fired many M1A's and Ar's and my all time favorite rifle is now a midlength free floated 16" heavy barrel AR 15 with a collapsible stock.It's plenty accurate out to 600yds and collapses to a nice easy to handle package. Good luck with your search. Oh, I almost forgot. Ohio gun shows seem to have plenty of AR's. The last one by Akron, the prices were not TOO hateful. |
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Dude, I'm in Columbus, a CHL Instructor, AR-15 builder and Buckeye Firearms Leader. feel free to contact me via email and I can send you my contacts/offer you some hands on advice. BTW at Westland you may come across a CETME assembled by Century International, They are the most common of the G3 clones and the only ones that are seen with regularity at Westland, The CETME's are the rifle the H&K G3 types are based on. Century turned out many problematic rifles so buyer beware. AR-10s are .308 caliber Stoner pattern rifles manufactured by Armalite, they look like an AR-15 on Steroids. Very nice expensive Battle Rifles. AR-180Bs are semi auto light carbines based on the AR-18 which was an Armalite/Stoner piston design conceived to be sold to countries with limited machining capacity due to it's simple stamped receiver. modern commercial examples have a polymer lower. They are not what most would consider a serious battle carbine in their current incarnation. You'd probably be best suited with an AR-15 since you're just getting into semi auto military pattern rifles. They're easy to learn on, accurate, relatively inexpensive and parts and magazines can be found more readily than any other gun out there today. shoot me an email and consider stopping by the Ohio hometown forum for more local advice. Quoted:
I am going to a gun show in Columbus, Oh at Westland mall tomorrow, 03 JAN 09. My goal is to get my first black gun, though I have not decided between a G3 or a M-4. I also just confused myself more by looking at AR-10s and AR180s. What are those? Anyway, I love the idea of having something that fires 7.62 NATO, but I also know that 5.56 is a lot cheaper to fire. I do not mind getting "Clones" of a model, it does not have to be HK but it sure would go nice with my USP .45 What are things I need to look for in any of the above specified models, and what should I avoid? Thank you in advance for all your help. |
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I certainly like 7.62x51/.308 Winchester more than 5.56/.223 Remington due to significant performance advantages that it has (e.g. effective range and knock down power). However, it has become a huge challenge to be able afford the price of .30 caliber ammo compared to 5.56, even though it has also risen considerably in price.
Since all firearms and ammo have increased in price over the last year or so, you need to make a purchase as soon as possible. In all honesty, your budget will ultimately guide this purchase. Unless you've got a great deal of discretionary income available, I'd recommend going the 5.56 route (ex. AR-15 variant, Kel-Tec SU-16, Mini-14, AK in 5.56...). My Armalite M-15 Carbine is very nice and I would recommend it to anyone. PS. I'll probably bump into you at Westland / C&E Gunshow tomorrow! 
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I will be there with a friend who is looking for stuff for his FN .45 and maybe the equipment to reload our used brass.
I will gratefully accept any and all advice, and I have one distinct characteristic, I have 9 1/2 fingers, if you see me there... you should know it is me. I may start out at the Glock table as a friend of mine, Mickey W. is a distributor. I generally go to him first thing when I show up, just for directions. Please, keep the info coming...I will absorb it all. |
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Additionally, I understand that the rifle twist ratio directly affects the ammo you want to use. If I can, I plan to use mainly hollow point, so I need a slower rifle twist, right? Like 1 per 9 or even 1 per 12. Correct me if I am wrong, please.
Also, it seems that the consensus is that I should go for the M-4/AR-15, what other rifle in a 7.62x51 should I consider in the future. I will take your advice about getting 5.56 tomorrow. (Yes, I plan on a 5.56x45 chamber not a .223 Remington. I want the little boost in durability) |
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do your research BEFORE buying (this includes on models and prices)
that said, what is YOUR requirements for this rifle––home defense, hunting, plinking, etc? 
personally, i'd probably opt for the std 5.56/.223 AR15––its cheaper overall (in the rifle, mags, ammo, etc)n and it will work for just about anything, save for really big game (but you can get diff uppers of specialized calibers ) if you want a .308 auto, the top ones to check out (as in reliability, mags, parts, costs, availability, etc): FALs, M14 clones (SA M1As, chicom M14 clones, etc), G3 clones (the best out there is the PTR-91...beware of the century ones), and the AR10 (Armalite imo makes the best, and is the most accurate of all 4 platforms); of course, there are others, including the ruskie .308 semis, etc...but comonality and such imo makes em less desireable i've shot/owned all the .308s above, overall, i'd opt for the FAL––mostly due to costs, but combining a great standing on overall reliability and quality M1As would be my prefered 2nd choice, due to its more natural ergos of a "battle rifle" (i'm a fan of the old school M1 Garand), rifle-man like qualities, and simplicity; but lower QC from SA is detering me as well as the way higher costs the PTR-91 is a great HK clone––one of the best available, if not so (real HK semiatuo G3 clones run $3k and up), but recoil, handling, and ergos aside, i prefer the FAL over it lastly, is the AR10; its a great gun, and can be made REAL accurate for a .308 semi auto; the largest problems i have with it are overall reliability (vs the aftermentioned battle rifles), cost (of the rifle and parts), and such the AR180 is armalite...its basically more along the lines of the AR15––in caliber and use at least, but its cheaper and arguable more reliable due to its piston system (completely diff vs the direct impigment of the AR15); that said, componets are not as well made (imo), parts are lacking, and its no way as popular as the AR15 series inheritantly, not as accurate as comparable quality ARs and not the best platform for optics or pimping out... the good news: it uses readily available AR mags and Armalite stands by thier product stick to name brand models, DO YOUR RESEARCH––find reviews online; use the search feature on here and other places to find more info hope that helps good luck ETA: FWIW, i run with AKs now  ––cheaper ammo (vs .223 and .308), no arguments on "stopping power" vs deer and similar sized animals, gets me in ranges i will use it for (300 or so yrds and CQB), and it works
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I want something to keep the communists away! LOL
Really though, I want something VERSATILE. Some plinking, mainly to keep my marksmanship, but the weapon will be a primary for when nazi mutant attack bunnies storm the castle... I have a USP .45 with night sights and tac light as my sidearm. I live in Ohio, so rifle hunting is out of the question, unless they make an upper with a barrel less than 5 inches. I like the look of tactical stuff, red dot, tac light, front grip, and stuff, so the customization potential of the AR was a big part of my inital decision making. So... anyone in OHIO have a fair quality, basic AR for sale? |
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