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Posted: 11/27/2006 1:50:53 PM EDT
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First, I do not reload for now. Luck struck me with a bit of cash and was wondering if I should invest in a wildcat upper like the 6.8SPC or a 6.5 Grendel or get an accurate .223 upper like a RRA varmint and shoot heavy bullets. I read on the ammo oracle that if SHTF, I can use some of the heavy 5.56 with no problems. I just want to use my spare lower. I already have a carbine setup for up close. I am looking for something I can use for long range, varmint and long range SHTF tool. Can this be possible, or am I just trying to swim in quicksand? |
| best thing to do is start reloading. not much factory grendel ammo available, and heavy .223 match rounds are expensive. grendels are mostly used for hunting and target, maybe possible sniper role. .223 are used more for varmint shooting and target. a rra or woa varmint upper would be nice. |
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Yeah, I was thinking a 20" RRA Varmint will do the trick. I can use a lot of bullet options from 55 to 77. In a SHTF situation I can use some 72-77 at 400yds and for practice, I'll use the light/less expensive stuff. Maybe if I start reloading, then I might give the Grendel a shot but I am not sure if there's a lot of bullet options. Also, I don't know how it will do against glass or metal (car door). At least I know that the steel core 5.56 will have a lot of potential on those scenarios. |
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Starting reloading is the BEST option no matter what upper you currently have or would get in the future. You will be able to reload ammo cheaper than you can buy it, but more importantly, you will be able to taylor the loads to your specific barrel which will get you better accuracy and velocity than you would typically get from factory ammo. |
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I know and I used (5 years ago) to reload but I can't do that initial investment for reloading right now. I guess I'll have to sooner or later. I got a couple of spare uppers that I would like to complete to round off my uses. If I don't have to spend some money on a different (AR10) platform, then I will be ok. Maybe I'll order one of those 6.5 Grendel Overwatch upper and try it out. But again, I thing of staying with the .223 and use some light and heavy bullets for different scenarios. I just want to be covered in case of the SHTF. |
Shoot-Out at Blackwater: Latest Firearms and Ammo Sound Off By John G. Roos, Editor The continuing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq are putting a new premium on sharpshooters — snipers and designated marksmen. They're easy to spot in photos and news clips by the specialized tools of their trade. Cumbersome .50-caliber sniper systems, weighing in at more than 30 pounds, are the weapons of choice for most of the very-long-range shooters. But an increasing number of marksmen are taking to the field with venerable M14s — 7.62mm rifles that were largely abandoned when Vietnam-era M16s became the infantryman's basic tool. Now, the M16's days are numbered. The heir apparent — dubbed the XM-8 — is wending its way through the final phases of Army testing (March AFJ). But even before the Army orders its first batch of XM-8s, soldiers and Marines are voicing concerns over these prospective standard-issue weapons. It's not that the XM-8 won't be a quantum improvement over the M16 — AFJ shooters had nothing but high praise for the new weapon's design and dependability during a test-firing opportunity earlier this year, and preliminary reports from Army tests bear out their impressions. The basic problem with the XM-8 is the same shortcoming plaguing M-4s and M-16 variants, particularly those with barrels shorter than 20 inches. The anemic 5.56mm round, which was well-suited for the close-in engagements that typified firefights in Vietnam, lacks the stopping power needed at longer ranges and against an enemy that has recently discovered the benefits of body armor. In response, members of the U.S. special operations community began experimenting with a larger bullet — a 6.8-by-43mm round. Along with the work of industry backers, their efforts attracted the attention and support of weapons developers at U.S. Special Operations Command (SoCom). So it should come as no surprise that XM-8 manufacturer Heckler & Koch is ready to produce M-8s designed to fire that round (or something other than the 5.56) if that's what the Army or SoCom wants. But the military's quest for increased stopping power isn't limited to assault weapons. Standard-issue 9mm Beretta pistols also are in disfavor. Users report a broad range of reliability problems with those sidearms, which entered service in 1987. Some of the problems are undoubtedly the result of years of wear and tear, but there also are strong feelings within the military's ranks that a 124-grain 9mm slug just isn't up to the demands of modern combat. That's why SoCom, the Army and the Marine Corps all are flirting with various types of .45-caliber pistols; the much heavier (185-230 grain) .45 ACP slug is renowned for its knockdown punch. The Coast Guard, now part of the Department of Homeland Security, is also hunting for a new pistol. But the Coast Guard's quest is wrapped in a multiagency procurement program that will field a family of handguns that can be controlled easily by small-handed shooters; as such, it excludes the .45 from consideration. The Coast Guard, along with the rest of the department's law enforcement officers, will soon begin sporting either new 9mm pistols or some type of .357 SIG or .40-cal sidearms. THE SHOOT OUT Against this backdrop, Armed Force Journal hosted its fifth annual AFJ Shoot-out. Not surprisingly, three XM-8 variants, the 6.8 round, a slew of pistols and other interesting weapons and gear were scheduled for testing. Unfortunately, the Heckler & Koch crew was involved in an auto accident on the way to the Shoot-out, so our evaluators didn't get to fire the XM-8s. On a more positive note, the accident didn't result in any life-threatening injuries; however, XM-8 program manager Sal Fanelli suffered a compound fracture of the femur that laid him up for several weeks. Along with Sal's colleagues at H&K and his many friends throughout the firearms industry, we're pleased to report that he's now back at work. Although our evaluators didn't get their hands on the XM-8s, AFJ test-fired the new weapon in February. Click here to read our coverage and see video of that event. THE LINEUP As in previous years, AFJ Shoot-out 2004 was held at the Blackwater Training Center in Moyock, N.C. (www.blackwaterusa.com). Blackwater hosts a steady stream of special operations forces, along with federal, state and local law enforcement professionals who hone their skills at the constantly expanding training facilities on the 5,400-acre site. The annual Shoot-out brings together members of the U.S. special operations community and the government weapons developers who support them with representatives from weapons- and ammo-manufacturing companies and related industries. The event's potential importance to invited industry guests is best understood by considering the impressive lineup of evaluators who tested the weapons and other products for this report — men whose jobs involve getting the best available equipment into the hands of elite U.S. forces. By that standard, this year's event was without peer. Twenty-six evaluators and several additional observers representing all five U.S. military services attended this year's Shoot-out as guests of AFJ. Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs and Air Force pararescuemen, along with Marine Corps and Coast Guard members and six competitive shooters from the Army Reserve International Combat Team, put some of the most exciting offerings from the worldwide firearms industry through their paces. Evaluators at this year's event hailed from U.S. Joint Forces Command; JFK Special Warfare Center; Naval Operations-Other-Than-Warfare Technical Center; the Navy's Mobile Security Group Two; the new Antiterrorism Center for Navy Security Forces; the Army Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga.; U.S. Special Operations Command; the Air Force Pararescue Training Center at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.; the Army Materiel Command; 75th Ranger Regiment; I Marine Expeditionary Force; Headquarters, U.S. Coast Guard; and the 94th Regimental Support Command, U.S. Army Reserve. Industry guests at the by-invitation-only event were equally top-notch. All were selected by the AFJ staff based on the uniqueness of their products and the potential interest the items they've developed might generate among the evaluators. Industry guests who had attended previous Shoot-outs were expected to have either new products or significantly improved versions of items evaluated previously. An exception was made this year for several pistol manufacturers, in order to give the evaluators access to a broad cross-section of available semi-autos. This year's industry guests and observers hailed from as far away as South Africa, which was represented by Milkor Marketing. Weapons- and ammo-manufacturers and distributors that attended were Remington, LeMas, CheyTac, Barrett, Alexander Arms, Cobb Manufacturing, Sage International, Richie's Guns, FNH USA, Beretta, Kimber, Para-Ordnance, Glock, U.S. Ordnance, Lewis Machine & Tool, and ZM Weapons. Other industry participants included American Defense Systems Inc., Point Blank Body Armor, PACA Body Armor, FLIR Systems Inc., SPA Tactical/Simrad Optronics, ITT and DRS Technologies. GLASS CHALLENGE As regular AFJ readers will recall, every Shoot-out kicks off with a glass-busting challenge that's open to all attendees. It isn't too surprising that many weapons and ammo manufacturers — particularly the smaller concerns —- have never had an opportunity to see how their products perform against top-quality ballistic glass. Similarly, few evaluators have fired through glass that's much tougher than an automobile windshield or aircraft windscreen. Participants examine glass during the first day of the 2004 Shoot-out. -- Photo by Steve Elfers, AFJ staff But the glass challenge is uppermost in the minds of two teams that are regular Shoot-out attendees: bullet-resistant glass design firm American Defense Systems, Inc. (ADSI) and blended metal ammo distributor LeMas. ADSI's DuPont™ SentryGlas® Plus line is manufactured by Cardinal LG. At each of the past four Shoot-outs, ADSI and LeMas have introduced increasingly effective glass and ammunition in what has become nothing short of a quest to outdo each other. In spite of the competitive spirit that has grown up around the glass-busting challenge, each side holds the other in the highest regard and readily acknowledges that the annual competition is a principal motivating factor for developing better products. Going into last year's contest, the two had battled to as close to a draw as possible. The bout culminated with LeMas hurling five .50-cal rounds (600 grains/3,350 feet per second) from a Barrett 99 into a 4.35-inch thick ADSI "Heavy Plus" glass panel from about 100 feet away. The rounds were spread out over the glass panel, with about eight inches between hits. The glass stopped three of the rounds; two penetrated. Last year, however, had team LeMas licking its wounds. Although no ammo of the same caliber even came close to performing as well as the LeMas line, the ADSI glass withstood nearly everything thrown at it. A 1.79-inch glass panel withstood the impact of a .408 Cheyenne Tactical cartridge (419 gr/2,950 fps) fired through the 29.5-inch barrel of a CheyTac Intervention Model 200 Military sniper system from 100 yards; a 1.5-inch panel withstood a drubbing from a 334-grain full metal jacket slug that exited a shortened, 12-inch barrel of an Alexander Arms .499 Beowulf at 1,900 fps from 20 feet away. (A standard Beowulf sports a 16-inch barrel.) One of the rare "breakthroughs" last year came when the .499 was pitted against a 1.19-inch glass panel. Against this backdrop, the LeMas team definitely was under the gun at this year's Shoot-out. And, at the outset at least, it looked as though ADSI would keep it there. This year's match up, which opened on a Thursday afternoon, began with LeMas' new Land Warfare armor-piercing, fragmenting 5.56mm round (46 gr/4,010 fps) pitted against a new product from ADSI: a 1.75-inch VistaSteel-SentryGlass Plus panel, which had not been tested previously against high-velocity bullets such as those sold by LeMas. From a distance of about 10 yards the panel stopped all three rounds. In the second round, Alexander Arms wanted to see what its 6.5mm (144 gr/2,250 fps) full metal jacket slug, fed through a short-barrel (18½ inch) Grendel, could do against a similar glass barrier. (In a standard, 24-inch Grendel, the 144-grain slug leaves the barrel at 2,450 fps.) The results were the same; the glass held. The third round pitted LeMas' new 5.56 Hardened Armor Priority Penetrator (42 grains/3,850 fps) against a 1.575-inch panel; all rounds punched their way through the glass. Similarly, three shots from the Grendel made their way throughADSI then offered up a panel of a new line of curved glass — more radically curved than an automobile windshield. Shortly before the Shoot-out, a similar 1.475-inch panel had been tested at the National Rifle Association range in Fairfax, Va., by a federal security agency. In that test, according to ADSI officials, the panel had stopped 12 of 14 rounds of 7.62-by-51 M80 ball ammunition fired from 15 feet.[/size=4] |
There are tons of 6.5mm bullet options, and the 6.5 Grendel can handle almost all of them from 85 grains to 144 grains. The "sweet spot" for the 6.5 Grendel is, oh, about 105 to 125 grains, but you can load the heavier 6.5mm hunting bullets no problem. John P.S. Did you say "long range"?  How would you like to be able to outshoot an AR10 or M14 with your AR15?  ========== 6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15 |
There are two problems with loading heavy bullets. 1. If you stay with magazine length, you'll intrude upon powder space greatly. 2. You can get around problem #1 above by loading long nonmagazine length rds & single loading them directly into the chamber, but then you'll run into pressure limitations with your new found extra powder space. M9 |
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