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Posted: 9/27/2013 7:04:34 PM EDT
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Hey everyone, after a successful midlength build I figured I would venture into AR-Pistol territory. Picture links are at the bottom, this is what I used:
Upper: SAA 7' 1:9 twist complete Link Magpul MBUS flip sights Allstar Tactical forged lower PSA lpk Phase 5 Tactical Buffer tube kit Magpul and Troy magazines (work perfectly in my midlength AR) Pics: Completed Build Malffunction #1 Malfunction #2 Malfunction #3 Bolt Problem Ammo Used I have four different buffers. I tried Carbine, T1, T2, and T3 all made by spikes tactical and none of them lessened the ejection issue. Ejection patterns are all over the place, anywhere from 1 o'clock to 6 o'clock with some of them hitting my right hand. I was told over the phone by a Surplus Ammo representative that their pistol uppers are bulletproof and have "never" had one returned with issues. That coupled along with the price point led me to go ahead and get one. Well I called their tech people today after I got back from the range and i was told that the issues I experienced were strictly ammo\magazine issues... What!?!?! are you kidding me? In any case, the guy on the phone talked to me like I was a moron, but i finally got him to authorize an RA. I would like to learn a bit more about how this works so that I can fix these kinds of problems myself, I cant stand dealing with the unique "customer service" style of the gun industry. My initial research led me to believe that overgassing might be an issue along with the crooked cam pin. How the heck does a cam pin get messed up like that? Any input you have or links to other relevant articles would be much appreciated. |
| My initial thought was that it is blowing so much gas back so fast down that short tube, that it is blowing the bolt carrier back faster than the poor bolt can unlock from the barrel lugs. I'd say the malfunctions are coming because the bolt timing is so late because it is not unlocking, hens making short stroke. Those look almost like short stroke malfunctions. What size gas port is in the barrel. Stop shooting that thing until you find the issue.... that cam pin was STRESSED!!! |
| thanks for your input, from what I understand about short stroking isnt that when the bolt fails to lock back after the last round is stripped and fired out of a magazine? if that is what short stroking is, i was not having any issues with the bolt locking back. not even once... I have no idea about the gas port size, Surplus Ammo & Arms assembled the upper so I had no input as to the detailed specs of the parts aside from what their website lists. |
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Pull your charging handle all the way back and see if your bolt face is falling inside the receiver please. Also try it on another complete lower as well as throw an o-ring on your extractor. I've fixed numerous of the same exact problems you are having thanks for your response, but i need a little clarification on what you mean by the bolt face falling inside the receiver. When I pull the charging handle back with an empty magazine inserted it locks back. not sure if that's what you were looking for. I was looking at BCM's extractor upgrade kit, seems like a good thing to get. |
| I had a an xm177 that was over gassed, the bolt itself was was falling inside the upper upon ejection, thus bottoming out the buffer and dropping the spent casing inside the upper receiver. When you pull your charging handle all the way back, can you still see your bolt face from the side? The fix for my XM was a new buffer tube, I also went with an h2 buffer and a 3 cent oring from Ace. That was over 1k rounds ago on this weapon, no FTE since. Make sure you try your pistol on a different lower first so you can rule out the buffer\ tube problem |
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FIRST replace the bent cam pin !!!! Quoted:
FIRST replace the bent cam pin !!!! this Quoted:
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Pull your charging handle all the way back and see if your bolt face is falling inside the receiver please. Also try it on another complete lower as well as throw an o-ring on your extractor. I've fixed numerous of the same exact problems you are having thanks for your response, but i need a little clarification on what you mean by the bolt face falling inside the receiver. When I pull the charging handle back with an empty magazine inserted it locks back. not sure if that's what you were looking for. I was looking at BCM's extractor upgrade kit, seems like a good thing to get. read AR stove piping specifically Dano's first post that will explain what he's talking about. |
| This is all great feedback, thank you very much for your input!!! As far as the cam pin goes, I called surplus ammo and finally got an RA# to send it all back to them to check out and replace. The stove pipe link is extremely useful, im going to look into that while I wait for my upper to get back. |
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FIRST replace the bent cam pin !!!! With that cam pin twisted like that, how is the firing pin not also broken? Have you taken it apart and looked it over? It's probably an out of spec bolt, or carrier, allowing the cam pin to slop around. Remember, the can pin is held in place by the bolt, the firing pin is held in place by the cam pin, twist the cam and you bend or break the firing pin |
| I have no idea, I cannot remove the cam pin because the angle that it is sitting at is causing it to hit the gas key. I shipped the whole setup back to Surplus Ammo, hopefully they send me back a new setup. Aside from an internally defective cam pin I don't understand how it can break like that? |
| Well the independence ammo ran like garbage in my reliable midlength AR so i'll agree with you.I also used remington, PPU, and freedom munitions to eliminate ammo from being the lone issue and I was still having malfunctions... When I get the upper back i definitely plan on doing the BCM extractor upgrade! |
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Everytime I use Independance ammo the same thing happens to me, so I don't use it anymore and no more problems. I also run the O-ring around the extractor springs on my pistols. Quoted:
Everytime I use Independance ammo the same thing happens to me, so I don't use it anymore and no more problems. I also run the O-ring around the extractor springs on my pistols. I run independence ammo in everything chambered in 5.56 I own (mostly because it's all I can get around here) I've never had a problem with the stuff. Quoted:
I have no idea, I cannot remove the cam pin because the angle that it is sitting at is causing it to hit the gas key. I shipped the whole setup back to Surplus Ammo, hopefully they send me back a new setup. Aside from an internally defective cam pin I don't understand how it can break like that? did you look over the bolt before you shot it? was the pin bent before hand? crappy alloy cam pin + overgassed maybe? |
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I run independence ammo in everything chambered in 5.56 I own (mostly because it's all I can get around here) I've never had a problem with the stuff. did you look over the bolt before you shot it? was the pin bent before hand? crappy alloy cam pin + overgassed maybe? Quoted:
Quoted:
Everytime I use Independance ammo the same thing happens to me, so I don't use it anymore and no more problems. I also run the O-ring around the extractor springs on my pistols. I run independence ammo in everything chambered in 5.56 I own (mostly because it's all I can get around here) I've never had a problem with the stuff. Quoted:
I have no idea, I cannot remove the cam pin because the angle that it is sitting at is causing it to hit the gas key. I shipped the whole setup back to Surplus Ammo, hopefully they send me back a new setup. Aside from an internally defective cam pin I don't understand how it can break like that? did you look over the bolt before you shot it? was the pin bent before hand? crappy alloy cam pin + overgassed maybe? See I thought independence was decent quality stuff, maybe I got a bad batch. Whenever I was shooting it regardless of the gun some rounds were louder or quieter than others where as the rest of the ammo I was shooting was consistent. Im no pro at this by any means but that leads me to believe that there might be some inconsistency in how the batch was loaded. Also, I did inspect and oil the bcg before I shot it. I know for a fact that there were no issues with it prior to shooting it. The bolt moved in and out of the carrier with ease. After the cam pin broke it was really difficult to manipulate the bolt. Im going to call Surplus Ammo tomorrow and see what they say the problem is. I wasn't happy with the aesthetic condition of the upper as there were several nicks in the quad rail. I asked them for a new upper, we'll see what they do. |
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Anyone have a thought about Chinese production bcg parts being related to the cam twist? I guess anything is possible but there are great reviews on the M16 bcg I received on the surplus ammo website. They also say that its staked to milspec (idk about the components though). I figure if their bcgs were that bad there would be a lot of complaints circulating the internet. It might just be a fluke defective cam pin. If I receive a replacement and the same thing happens again, then there might be justification for concern. That just my opinion though, im no expert. |
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Well I just got off the phone with Surplus Ammo and Arms. To make a long story short, it appears that the independence ammunition that I was shooting was severely over pressure. Take a look at the picture and let me know what you think.
Broken Cam Pin When I was shooting the independence ammo some shots were really loud, some really quiet. Evidently the way the cam pin broke is indicative of bad ammo according to their gunsmith. Furthermore they are going to charge me $70 for a new bolt, cam pin, and labor disassembling everything and putting it back together. Im not happy about having to pay for something that has a "lifetime" warranty but then again if it really was defective ammo causing the malfunction, its not their problem... What say you? Edit: I went and measured the weight of the independence ammo I have left over, the weight from round to round varied 1 gram with total weight being 11-12 grams. I dont know a whole lot about reloading or how to make anything useful of this information. Any input would be appreciated! |
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Well I just got off the phone with Surplus Ammo and Arms. To make a long story short, it appears that the independence ammunition that I was shooting was severely over pressure. Take a look at the picture and let me know what you think. Broken Cam Pin When I was shooting the independence ammo some shots were really loud, some really quiet. Evidently the way the cam pin broke is indicative of bad ammo according to their gunsmith. Furthermore they are going to charge me $70 for a new bolt, cam pin, and labor disassembling everything and putting it back together. Im not happy about having to pay for something that has a "lifetime" warranty but then again if it really was defective ammo causing the malfunction, its not their problem... What say you? Edit: I went and measured the weight of the independence ammo I have left over, the weight from round to round varied 1 gram with total weight being 11-12 grams. I dont know a whole lot about reloading or how to make anything useful of this information. Any input would be appreciated! do you have any fired casings that didn't get f'ed up by the malfunctions? I would think any ammo that is going to cause that damage would have shown pressure signs on the casings. I have fired 1500-1600 rounds of independence ammo and have never had any problems. |
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I've never had a bit of problems from Independence 5.56 (IMI). I've shot over 7000 rounds to date in 20 some firearms of all different configurations. Some one is jerking your chain. Your upper is way over gassed, plain and simple. Thanks for the feedback, all I can do now is test everything again once I get it back from SAA. Thats the last time I send anything back to them though, so much for a "warranty" when they blame the issue on anything they can make up. What a load of crap. |
| From my recent experience I would recommend that you get rid of the gigantic piece of shit SAA gas block. I spent way too much money on different gas tubes, barrels, BCGs, and buffers trying to get my 7.5 pistol to run right. Realized the common denominator on all configurations was the SAA block. Swapped out for a BCM block and it runs like a top. Cycles, ejects, locks on an empty mag. Also get some rings from the dude on the EE to upgrade your extractor. Never have your second malfunction ever again. |
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