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Posted: 6/13/2007 4:58:28 PM EDT
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Anyone have an idea what kind of mags these are. I question the authenticity of the advertised brand (La Belle) because I compared them to a few others that I have. Just trying to make sure that us guys who reside in the People's Republic of NY aren't being taken advantage of because of our pre-ban needs. Thanks http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/kyoshi71/IMG_0296_2.jpg http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/kyoshi71/IMG_0295.jpg http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/kyoshi71/IMG_0294.jpg http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/kyoshi71/IMG_0292.jpg http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/kyoshi71/IMG_0286.jpg |
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No contract number or cage code. The number on the floorplate is too long for a cage code and too short for a DUNS number. I do not have current access to the FEDLOG but the NSN does not look current or period correct. Looks like a nice mag but I think someone is pulling a fast one. Hootbro Update: Looks like they maybe Labelle mags. Seems they made a bunch preban with the teflon finish for other companies that may have used their own floor plates. magfaq.tripod.com/mags1.htm#2y |
Thanks for posting the photos.  I have 10 of the mags - I emailed the seller and he sent me a link to http://www.fulton-armory.com/ARMags.htm From the website: G.I. contract 30 round. Black plastic followers. Teflon finish. This is the latest mil. spec., which started only in June, 1994). Functionally, these are the best of the breed, because they have a slick, durable Teflon coat inside and out. Very few of these magazines made it onto the civilian market before the ban started on Sept. 13, 1994. All were made by Labelle Industries. They made batches for the civilian market in both grey and black Teflon. Most of these were marked: Cal. 5.56mm, a part number, and Made in U.S.A. (Note that Bushmaster/Quality Parts had Labelle make up a batch for them with BFI floor plates. Labelle did the same for Defense Procurement Management Service (DPMS). Military production pre-Sept 13, 1994 are not date stamped. Post Sept. 13, 1994 production are date stamped an a no-no for U.S. civilians to possess. Most dealers get $30 each for pre-ban Teflon coated 30s nowadays. I sold out long ago, but I've heard that Quality Parts/Bushmaster (BFI) still has some. I have some NIW Pre-ban LaBelle Teflon mags that I compared these unmarked mags to, they are not the same.  Hopefully someone has more info on the mystery mags |
It does look like a early black pre anti-tilt design one. Would not hurt to swap for a USGI anti-tilt green or magpul. Flat honest opinion from me is that I really would suspect this mag as being true preban. Since it is unmarked, I really would not sweat it even in a ban state. It really does look like a well built mag FWIW. Hootbro |
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Looks like the 8448674 is a parts number for 30 round magazines used in military requisitions/contracts for commercial products.( purchased off the regular magazine mfg contract). Put that number into GOOGLE and you will find two PDF's with regard to one commercial acquisition in 2002 from OKAY and another in early 2005 with Brownell's. There was also a supplement document on the Brownell's allowing them to remove the "restricted, Military/LEO/export use only" markings. Couldn't find anything earlier regarding the OP's magazines, but if they came in sealed bags with the black followers minus restricted markings, then I would accept them as preban items. They were evidently procured under a contract/requisition and assigned the commercial parts number 8448674 at an earlier time, in similarity to the Googled contracts found. |
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There is some nonsense going on. The article which was referenced by the vendor on Fulton Armory is a re-post because it's all over the web. The trouble is, the words "black" and "green" (refering to the followers) seem to be interchangable depending upon where you look. Check it out. http://www.fulton-armory.com/ARMags.htm http://www.rawles.to/AR-15_M16_Magazine_FAQ.html |
So if they were purportedly Le Belles, you'de believe it? I couldnt get the detail that close in the photo but the tack welds were much sloppier than my genuine La Belles, the action wasnt as smooth and the springs were different. Also, the bags looked like they were printed yesterday. Did La Belle make teflons with black followers? As for the pre-ban thing, Center Industries makes post ban mags with no DS, right? |
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No nonsense, but that FAQ you are reading is very dated. Here's the deal... On Sept 13, 1994, president Klinton signed into law the assault weapons ban we are all so used to hearing about. One of the implementation requirements of the ban was that all greater than 10 round ammo magazines be marked with the wording. "Restricted Law Enforcement/Military/Export Use Only". The law was designed to go away(sunset) ten year from enactment(Sept.13, 2004) On the eve of of Sept 13, 2004, the BATF issued a web posted memo to LE and FFL's stating that this wording would have no legal effects after the ban's expiration(meaningless). NOW, you're NY State has a ban that for their legislative expedience was designed to follow the wording of the Federal ban, with the exception of NO sunset date. Now, the determining factor on your mags being pre-ban can be determined by at least two methodologies. Historically, by the time Sept. 1994 came around, all of the current USGI magazines had been manufactured with the green followers(an improvement over the black followers).; and legally, any made over 10 round magazines made after Sept 13, 1994 required the special wording on the body. Another factor that came into play about Sept 1994 was the use of month and date codes on the magazines. IIRC, this was a way to determine stock(age) rotation more so than that of a BATF legal requirement. One last thing, Center Industries, a contract USGI maker dated their mag bodies before 9/94(earlier than most of the other contract mfg), BUT, they were very slow in implementing the restricted wording on the mag body |
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They don't have Govt/LEO Only markings, and no dates. Yes, they are Labelles. I'd stick in green followers and go shoot them. They are good mags. I have Labelles here in gray and black, and with Labelle, DPMS, BFI, and blank floorplates. 8448674 refers to a "Drawing" or diagram of how M16 30 round mags are to be made. That number way precedes the 94 ban. It is referred to a number of times in Referring to the document listed in the previous post... docs.law.gwu.edu/asbca/decision/Word_Files/49307.doc "21. On 26 May 1989, Parsons submitted production and quality operating procedures for heat treat salt bath, heat treat batch oven, and anodizing processes for review and approval. (App. R4, tab 593) Notes 4 and 5 of drawing 8448674 ..." and "31. Paragraph 3.8 of MIL-W-13855 states in relevant part: “Finished items and parts shall not exhibit poor material and processing such as seams, laps, laminations, cracks, visible steps . . . which may affect serviceability, functioning, operation, appearance or safety.” (Emphasis added; app. R4, tab 808) Contract drawing 8448674 shows the 1.078 dimension extending across the entire front of the magazine box, ..." "33. Note 3 on the contract drawing states: “All dimensions apply before finish.” (App. R4, tab 26) However, since both the surface being measured and the reference point were finished, only the build-up of the hard coating and dry lube finish tolerances affect the measurement. (Gov’t R4, tab 252) Those tolerances are insufficient to explain the out-of-tolerance measurements taken by the QAR. (Tr. 9/161-63; app. R4, tab 26, Dwg. 8448674..." Apparently that number (on your mag's baseplate) is a drawing, or blueprint, for the USGI 30 round magazine. |
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j1r11, Asked me to stop by and was kind enough to point me to this thread, to help clarify these mags. To give you the lowdown on these mags. I purchased approx. 2K various Pre-ban mags from a deceased mag dealer estate, I have everything from Sig, Glock, Beretta, CZ/TZ, USA AR-15 mags, FAL Israeli Metric mags, HK 93 40rd mags (date coded '76), Colt Factory 32rd 9mm, Uzi (chinese made) mag, M-14, etc mags in two lots. This first lot included these Civilian marked Labelle made mags, along with a couple loose Labelle marked mags, most of these mags were in the NSN marked bags, some were in plain bags. I can't say why they were repackaged. (The only person that knows for sure is the dealer who passed away). I did some research because I was not sure who made them either. The outside of the storage box had hand written Labelle in magic marker on the them so that was a clue. I came across the info that Mr. Rawles had posted and even updated again, this year. The mags have been packed in boxes and stored in a climate controlled storage locker, that is my best guess for why the packages and mags are in such good shape. As for the followers from what info I have read they used either black or green followers whatever they had at hand. The 2nd lot of mags also had the Israeli marked FAL metric mags, and Labelle made DPMS 30rd Black teflon that are in the same NSN baggies and have the following floorplate info: DEFENSE PROCUREMENT MANUFACTURING SERVICES, INC OSSEO, MN 55369 To summarize : From what I have read Labelle made anodized military mags and a limited amount of grey or black Teflon coated mags before the ban. They made Teflon mags with a number of floorplates for different companies and these must be the civilian marked mags If anyone that has bought them from me does not feel comfortable about the origin or Pre-ban status, you can contact me and return them in the same condition for a refund. I am not trying to make a killing on these, they are priced fairly. Just trying to get them in the hands of shooters who would appreciate them and give them a good home. I have had a number of reorders already on these. All the other mags from the boxes I have opened (I some more boxes left to open) have all been pre-ban manufacture mags. Best regards, Mike |
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I have 6 or so of these mags. If anyone remembers, someone posted a heads up on a dealer selling these mags maybe a month at most after the ban expired. I think it was a surplus dealer located in Texas. Anyway, based on the timing and what the dealer had to say, I was led to believe they were prebans somone had stocked up on during the ban and kept them too long. I replaced all the followers with green ones and they run like a champ. They definitely appear similar in construction to Labelle. |
Hah, I was going to post on these exact mags!  I bought ten of them right after the AWB expired back in '04 I forget from who...it was eighter Natchez or Midway. They were advertised as Labelles, I was pissed when I got them due to the plastic bag that they were in was the same consistency as a sandwich baggie and not the heavier PVC that my other Labelle mags have come in. That and the black followers made me to think they were not genuine Labelles. But I guess they really are, thanks for the info guys! I replaced all the black followers with Magpul 1st gen followers...no problems. |
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