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Posted: 10/7/2014 1:12:44 PM EDT
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Hey guys...over on the general discussion thread I introduced myself and put up a parts list should I build and not buy. The lower receiver I listed was a New Frontier Armory complete polymer lower. I got an overwhelming number of responses saying not to go with the Polymer lower. Now this gun will spend 99% of its life under my bed (just me and my wife...no children at home) and the other 1% a combination of showing to friends and firing at the indoor range...I'm talking MAYBE 500 rounds per year. Certinately a light duty situation, no combat or rolling around in anything etc.
Now with this being said...could a polymer lower receiver reliably get me two years and perhaps 1,000 rounds down the road until I have the cash to throw higher quality parts at it? Are they that bad that I couldn't even trust one for the lightest of duty application? |
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It will work, until it doesn't.
You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ |
| I have an ATI Omni lower (non hybrid) that I got during the panic after Shady Hook that has about 750 rounds down the pipe. It's been solid and it shows no signs of distress or breakdown. If you already have it and everything bolts up to it fine than use it until you need/want to replace it. I'm planning on going the 80% forged lower route because I want the knowledge of being able to finish the lower myself and not having serial number and "approved markings" on it. IF you haven't bought the lower yet I would suggest passing on the polymer one and getting a forged one. PSA and Aero precision "cosmetic blem" lowers can be found for $50 and have a proven track record. |
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I own one of the new frontier polymer lowers.
at the time a complete lower for 95 bucks WAS a great deal. you can now pick them up from palmetto in aluminum for 129 when they have a sale. when it was 50-60 dollars difference between a complete poly vs aluminum lower or worse, I figured why not try the poly out. it has only been used with a 22 upper, so I don't know how long it will hold up. I bought it complete, so no assembly issues I have heard others complain about. swapped in a metal hammer and trigger. but if you can save up another 30 bucks and wait for a sale(shouldn't be too long now) you should be able to get the aluminum one instead. if it bothers you based on internet postings. I think I have only seen 2 actual broken nfa lowers in different posts. both snapped at the buffer tube. |
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I have a complete NFA lower that had a RRA upper on it when I bought it used from a friend of mine. Between him and I, the rifle has about 600 rounds over the past two years. It is not bad at all. The poly stands up fine and I have had no issue with the NFA fire control group. Will it suit your needs? Yes. But why spend that much now to only spend more down the road?
Depending on what you have access to, a stripped lower from Anderson will run about $50 online or at gun shows. Palmetto State has complete lower build kits (including the stock) for $110. So for just a bit more you can have a solid metal lower. AS was mentioned, a blem lower from Palmetto can be had for good prices as well if you have an FFL that won't charge much for the transfer. |
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It will work, until it doesn't. You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 |
i actually have the new frontier complete lower, had it for 2.5 years now, ran over 3,000+ rounds through it, very nice and has been runned over by an atv, and i live in Texas so it doesn't "Melt"  , darn thing has taken a beating, and it still does, i bought it for shits and gigles but that damn thing is durable, only downside is i had to shave a little of the front upper pin, so i can use specific hand guards
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This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 Quoted:
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It will work, until it doesn't. You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. |
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The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. Quoted:
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It will work, until it doesn't. You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. But you end up with a firearm that will last forever and not a delicate gun-shaped toy. The fire control groups in those NFA lowers are plastic as well. Nobody is saying you have to go out and buy Larue/DD/Noveske etc. It's your money, sounds like you've already made up your mind and you're looking for validation. You'll find that around here the "sure, buy cheap plastic" crowd is a small one and the most vocal supporters have problems with accepting reality. I will say that the Cav Arms designed lowers are an exception to the rule, as they are more adequately redesigned for the different material. |
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Quoted: Hey guys...over on the general discussion thread I introduced myself and put up a parts list should I build and not buy. The lower receiver I listed was a New Frontier Armory complete polymer lower. I got an overwhelming number of responses saying not to go with the Polymer lower. Now this gun will spend 99% of its life under my bed (just me and my wife...no children at home) and the other 1% a combination of showing to friends and firing at the indoor range...I'm talking MAYBE 500 rounds per year. Certinately a light duty situation, no combat or rolling around in anything etc.
Now with this being said...could a polymer lower receiver reliably get me two years and perhaps 1,000 rounds down the road until I have the cash to throw higher quality parts at it? Are they that bad that I couldn't even trust one for the lightest of duty application? Yes, it'll get you 2 years or easily more - as a plinking or hunting gun. For home defense you'll probably want to go ahead & spend the extra $50 more to get an aluminum lower. Or you could get a Sabre Defense (CavArms/GWACS) one-piece receiver/stock polymer receiver from http://www.trinityordnance.com/ with metal LPK for $100. |
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Ok, here I go again.
And yes, I have a Cav Arms II/GWACS lower, and it is the only polymer lower that is worth a hoot because the receiver extension area is reinforced by the integral stock. In order for a polymer lower to work, that area has to be significantly reinforced, not just remade in the same shape as the aluminum lower. All the others will not stand up to the abuse that would be expected of any military rifle. Wideners has Anderson mfg forged Aluminum lowers for $43. $43 dollar forged lower So cost is not an issue. 
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Interesting that the buffer retaining detent hole held up. What were you doing when it broke? Not my pics, I would never buy one of those. From what I can recall from some of the posts of owners of the fractured receeivers, they were just shooting the rifles when they broke. |
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Not my pics, I would never buy one of those. From what I can recall from some of the posts of owners of the fractured receeivers, they were just shooting the rifles when they broke. Quoted:
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Interesting that the buffer retaining detent hole held up. What were you doing when it broke? Not my pics, I would never buy one of those. From what I can recall from some of the posts of owners of the fractured receeivers, they were just shooting the rifles when they broke. This Carbon 15 never made it to the gun shop in one piece... 
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The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. Quoted:
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It will work, until it doesn't. You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. So your opportunity cost will be an extra 50 bux for a solid reliable weapon, I think forever beats 2 years. You can find many good deals on the EE, just be sure to look daily as good deals go fast. |
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Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. You can go as low as $130 and still get a good complete lower half with forged receiver. That includes LPK and stock. The blems are only cosmetic and usually not even noticeable. Right here If you still buy a weak plastic lower with a deal like that, well, you're the one who will have to live with your choice. |
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This Carbon 15 never made it to the gun shop in one piece... http://img-2013.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/01/thumbnail/etu8y2a5.jpg Quoted:
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Interesting that the buffer retaining detent hole held up. What were you doing when it broke? Not my pics, I would never buy one of those. From what I can recall from some of the posts of owners of the fractured receeivers, they were just shooting the rifles when they broke. This Carbon 15 never made it to the gun shop in one piece... http://img-2013.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/01/thumbnail/etu8y2a5.jpg It's just silly to take a well engineered receiver design that was meant to be manufactured with a certain strength of material, and then substitute a weaker material and expect it to work. That's not even slightly plausible. |
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You can go as low as $130 and still get a good complete lower half with forged receiver. That includes LPK and stock. The blems are only cosmetic and usually not even noticeable. Right here If you still buy a weak plastic lower with a deal like that, well, you're the one who will have to live with your choice. Quoted:
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Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. You can go as low as $130 and still get a good complete lower half with forged receiver. That includes LPK and stock. The blems are only cosmetic and usually not even noticeable. Right here If you still buy a weak plastic lower with a deal like that, well, you're the one who will have to live with your choice. This is the deal everyone is talking about. How much is your assembled lower in plastic? That's the difference. If your debating over a few bucks (>$50) difference then the AR/gun world might not be your thing. The polymer lowers have been known to crack and break around the buffer tube area with minimal jarring, If you drop the rifle on its buttstock, You may hay just destroyed it and end up like the pics above. Your choice/money. |
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You can go as low as $130 and still get a good complete lower half with forged receiver. That includes LPK and stock. The blems are only cosmetic and usually not even noticeable. Right here If you still buy a weak plastic lower with a deal like that, well, you're the one who will have to live with your choice. Quoted:
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Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. You can go as low as $130 and still get a good complete lower half with forged receiver. That includes LPK and stock. The blems are only cosmetic and usually not even noticeable. Right here If you still buy a weak plastic lower with a deal like that, well, you're the one who will have to live with your choice. Now this is a deal...I would do that. |
| I just looked at the complete lower on the NFA site for $139. Same exact damn thing in a full metal PSA is $129. Pay extra money to get a lower with a plastic f'ing fire control group that can't be replaced with anything but another plastic f'ing FCG, because they aren't even standard dimensions. Then it comes all wrapped up in a nice breaks-before-you-fire it lower receiver. Seriously?? Not to put too fine a point on it but, open your head, dump the rocks out and then buy the PSA, or anything else but that whiz-bang KABOOM piece of crap. .....Seriously???? They don't even have the single clue to even use, oh, I dunno, some carbon fiber / Kevlar to reinforce the high stress areas? |
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I bought an ATI Omni 2nd gen (with metal reinforcements in key areas) just to try it out. Gonna shoot that gun as my daily driver and see how it holds up. There's a step in the right direction. Of course you gotta figure the NFA's of the world had to try something like that back when people would sell their left nut for anything that looked like a lower and had a serial number. Those days are over and they now have a whole warehouse full of plastic garbage to foist on an ever diminishing supply (less by one more today hopefully) of people who haven't gotten the word yet. If ya gotta be cutting edge and wanna try plastic, this ATI thing looks like much more of an attempt to be serious about it (Gee embedded metal. Who'duh thunk?). Good luck. have fun. wear a face shield. 
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The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. Quoted:
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It will work, until it doesn't. You can find quality forged aluminum lowers for ~$50 nowadays, there is no good reason to go with polymer. Here's one example, $60, will last forever. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/10445/category/4282/ This^^^^^^ Another Example with free shipping http://fatboytactical.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=411 The reason I don't want to go that route is because it actually costs more money at the end of the day. With the new frontier polymer I have a complete lower with parts included/installed AND a stock for $109. Everyone saying get the lower it's only $60 is not thinking about the extra $100 to outfit with parts and stock etc. so $60 is now really $160. $129 Complete PSA forged Lower I can't believe anyone would consider $20 to upgrade to forged anything less than a much better idea. It will have better resale value and better longevity. |
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$129 Complete PSA forged Lower I can't believe anyone would consider $20 to upgrade to forged anything less than a much better idea. It will have better resale value and better longevity. THIS... This is what I meant to say!! Well, actually I DID say it. I just didn't LINK it, and then I yelled, and went on and on about rocks in the head, and about companies that are sleaze..... Thanx for linking where I failed. There's a reason there's more than just me and OP here. 
ETA: Ironically, $20 is about the same cost as the approximately 40 rounds of 193 it'd take to destroy the NFA lower. |
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THIS... This is what I meant to say!! Well, actually I DID say it. I just didn't LINK it, and then I yelled, and went on and on about rocks in the head, and about companies that are sleaze..... Thanx for linking where I failed. There's a reason there's more than just me and OP here. Quoted:
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$129 Complete PSA forged Lower I can't believe anyone would consider $20 to upgrade to forged anything less than a much better idea. It will have better resale value and better longevity. THIS... This is what I meant to say!! Well, actually I DID say it. I just didn't LINK it, and then I yelled, and went on and on about rocks in the head, and about companies that are sleaze..... Thanx for linking where I failed. There's a reason there's more than just me and OP here. 
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THIS... This is what I meant to say!! Well, actually I DID say it. I just didn't LINK it, and then I yelled, and went on and on about rocks in the head, and about companies that are sleaze..... Thanx for linking where I failed. There's a reason there's more than just me and OP here.
ETA: Ironically, $20 is about the same cost as the approximately 40 rounds of 193 it'd take to destroy the NFA lower. Quoted:
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$129 Complete PSA forged Lower I can't believe anyone would consider $20 to upgrade to forged anything less than a much better idea. It will have better resale value and better longevity. THIS... This is what I meant to say!! Well, actually I DID say it. I just didn't LINK it, and then I yelled, and went on and on about rocks in the head, and about companies that are sleaze..... Thanx for linking where I failed. There's a reason there's more than just me and OP here.
ETA: Ironically, $20 is about the same cost as the approximately 40 rounds of 193 it'd take to destroy the NFA lower. Have you seen the price of their blem upper half? $269 I think. BCG another $69 from PSA. That makes a $500 AR with an FN barrel. Wow - I think I may have to order one just to say I did it at that price. Gonna need another safe. 
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They never have all their good deals at the same time to make a whole rifle. The blem upper with FN barrel has been down to $229 lately, with the unblemed version $249 with free shipping. You can still build one for under $500 - not bad for a rifle with mpi bolt and chrome lined barrel. That's cheaper than a mini-14 with it's pie-plate accuracy. 
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I have a CAV-15 MK II No Problems and I like it.
My extensive research (on AR15.com)  lead me to belive that there are only two polymer lowers worth concidering. NFA or CAV-15. No one has shown me a picture of a failed NFA polymer lower. Every picture proving polymers are trash was something other than an NFA or CAV-15. Also, one of them was a result of using it to catch themselves diving to the ground. Not the kind of manuvers I plan on doing with my rifle.
I have a stripped NFA Polymer Lower in my safe. I plan on building it (or selling it next panic )
I would not even consider any other polymer lowers. |
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First off I own a couple poly 80% lowers and they are all 22lr's now. I did used one for awhile in 223 just to see how it would work. I did go bang but I never felt like it was the best choice for a center fire AR. I also own a dozen other AR15 and AR10's with Alloy lowers. I see no reason that one can not own a poly lower but if it is going to be my only AR and it's a weapon I may have to use to defend myself and my family then I would ask one question.
What it my life and the life of my family worth? If the answer is 109.00 then a poly lower would be our only choice. |
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First off I own a couple poly 80% lowers and they are all 22lr's now. I did used one for awhile in 223 just to see how it would work. I did go bang but I never felt like it was the best choice for a center fire AR. I also own a dozen other AR15 and AR10's with Alloy lowers. I see no reason that one can not own a poly lower but if it is going to be my only AR and it's a weapon I may have to use to defend myself and my family then I would ask one question. What it my life and the life of my family worth? If the answer is 109.00 then a poly lower would be our only choice. That sums it up pretty nice. I'm still trying to figure out the whole plastic lower thing. Compositing for strength / weight / cost / reliability requirements is not new. The M16, as a complete rifle, is itself the very definition of a composite structure, designed by people who could have lunch with the likes of Kelly Johnson et al any time they felt like it. I can't figure out where the wasted weight, insufficient strength or excessive cost is located. At ~8.3 oz stripped, I think the lower was optimized to the point of diminishing returns decades ago. Cheaper? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters. Stronger? Not necessary. Lighter? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters at any cost that civilians can afford.... until some idiot decides to melt down Kelly's Blackbirds to create a glut of Inconel 6 on the open market. So what's the point? The design goal of wanting to create a plastic lower? Anyone? |
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Quoted: That sums it up pretty nice.
I'm still trying to figure out the whole plastic lower thing. Compositing for strength / weight / cost / reliability requirements is not new. The M16, as a complete rifle, is itself the very definition of a composite structure, designed by people who could have lunch with the likes of Kelly Johnson et al any time they felt like it. I can't figure out where the wasted weight, insufficient strength or excessive cost is located. At ~8.3 oz stripped, I think the lower was optimized to the point of diminishing returns decades ago. Cheaper? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters. Stronger? Not necessary. Lighter? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters at any cost that civilians can afford.... until some idiot decides to melt down Kelly's Blackbirds to create a glut of Inconel 6 on the open market. So what's the point? The design goal of wanting to create a plastic lower? Anyone?  Expense, weight, and ease of home construction.
In fact, the buffer boss has now been reinforced twice - once to the M16A1, 2nd on the M16A2 - b/c that is the weak part of the receiver, and even aluminum receivers break there when they do break. Given the energy costs of aluminum, plastic lowers will always have a cost advantage - it may be minimal, but there will generally always be a difference. Now that there are magnesium lowers on the market, the weight advantage may shift to that material, but @ a much higher cost. Ease of home construction may be where plastic reigns supreme. The EP Armory lowers could be completed with a Dremel. And there's some crazy nut at the Feinstein Project that wants to build AR lowers out of Legos... |
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Expense, weight, and ease of home construction.
In fact, the buffer boss has now been reinforced twice - once to the M16A1, 2nd on the M16A2 - b/c that is the weak part of the receiver, and even aluminum receivers break there when they do break. Given the energy costs of aluminum, plastic lowers will always have a cost advantage - it may be minimal, but there will generally always be a difference. Now that there are magnesium lowers on the market, the weight advantage may shift to that material, but @ a much higher cost. Ease of home construction may be where plastic reigns supreme. The EP Armory lowers could be completed with a Dremel. And there's some crazy nut at the Feinstein Project that wants to build AR lowers out of Legos... Quoted:
Quoted: That sums it up pretty nice.
I'm still trying to figure out the whole plastic lower thing. Compositing for strength / weight / cost / reliability requirements is not new. The M16, as a complete rifle, is itself the very definition of a composite structure, designed by people who could have lunch with the likes of Kelly Johnson et al any time they felt like it. I can't figure out where the wasted weight, insufficient strength or excessive cost is located. At ~8.3 oz stripped, I think the lower was optimized to the point of diminishing returns decades ago. Cheaper? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters. Stronger? Not necessary. Lighter? Not gonna happen by any degree that matters at any cost that civilians can afford.... until some idiot decides to melt down Kelly's Blackbirds to create a glut of Inconel 6 on the open market. So what's the point? The design goal of wanting to create a plastic lower? Anyone? Expense, weight, and ease of home construction.
In fact, the buffer boss has now been reinforced twice - once to the M16A1, 2nd on the M16A2 - b/c that is the weak part of the receiver, and even aluminum receivers break there when they do break. Given the energy costs of aluminum, plastic lowers will always have a cost advantage - it may be minimal, but there will generally always be a difference. Now that there are magnesium lowers on the market, the weight advantage may shift to that material, but @ a much higher cost. Ease of home construction may be where plastic reigns supreme. The EP Armory lowers could be completed with a Dremel. And there's some crazy nut at the Feinstein Project that wants to build AR lowers out of Legos... I see, unfortunately, once again, that P.T.Barnum was right..... and is apparently alive and well. |
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Every picture proving polymers are trash was something other than an NFA or CAV-15. Also, one of them was a result of using it to catch themselves diving to the ground. Not the kind of manuvers I plan on doing with my rifle. I don't know about the NFA lowers, but I do know in my time in the Infantry, breaking the impact to your knees while dropping to a prone firing position by planting your rifle butt was standard drill when I was in. I still do it when shooting prone. I would not want to own a rifle that could not handle that small amount of stress on the receiver. |
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What it my life and the life of my family worth? If the answer is 109.00 then a poly lower would be our only choice. LOL reminds me of a buddy of mine, when people would ask if they could get a good motorcycle helmet for $50, he would say "If you have a $50 head, get a $50 helmet". 
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| I occasionally get emails from Kentucky Gunco (as GTG as an online store gets) with Anderson stripped lowers for $40 with free shipping. I haven't looked at polymer in years but they can't possibly be much cheaper. With the market now days I wouldn't waste time with plastic. |
| I milled out an kevlar/posted k Myer lower for a scope build. This will bg e my only positive 'll tuner build. I like it because of the light weight, cost, and it has the re-unforced areas in all the right places. A good one. Ths is one of the EP armory lowers. |
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