AR Sponsor
Posted: 8/5/2013 4:12:27 PM EDT
| I just recently got my first railed upper. Its a PSA upper with Midwest industries ssg2 rail. I saw this thread and started looking at mine. My rail is not like that, maybe 1/64" lower than the rails on the upper receiver. I sighted in the aimpoint the other day. Will this ever so slight difference matter when I put irons on it? Pics will be posted as soon as I get home. |
|
yes it will affect your ability to zero the rifle with iron sights. The front and real sight will be on a different plane. There will probably be enough adjustment to overcome this. If not they make different size front sight posts you can use. But I honestly dont think you will have an issue.
Your red dot shouldnt be affected, as long as you mount it on the upper and not on the rail. |
| I knew my red dot would not be affected as its mounted to the receiver. I'm assumimg that the slight difference will be very easy to compensate for by adjusting the elevation. If its slight, its really not worth the headache to take my muzzle device off, ship it back, and wait for another, when I could be shooting. Pics coming within a couple hours. |
|
Hi txgunguy, that's my thread you referenced in your post. In my post I referenced this thread, and also found this archived thread where the OP had a similar issue. It seems to be more common than I originally thought. In fact, I've been googling images for this MI SS12G2 rail and it seems that quite a few builds and factory assembled uppers end up with the rail not sitting flush with the receiver. PSA has issued me an electronic RMA. I'm uncertain whether they'll replace just the rail, the propriety barrel nut or the entire upper. I'm hoping they'll just address the rail/barrel nut because everything else on the upper checks out; There's always the chance that a complete replacement will have a good rail installation but something else wrong with the upper, lol. I'm in the same boat as you, as I'm not sure it's even worth the hassle to return. Your assembly looks a little better than mine, but even with mine I think there should be enough adjustment on the front sight for it to be ok. |
|
Quoted:
Hi txgunguy, that's my thread you referenced in your post. In my post I referenced this thread, and also found this archived thread where the OP had a similar issue. It seems to be more common than I originally thought. In fact, I've been googling images for this MI SS12G2 rail and it seems that quite a few builds and factory assembled uppers end up with the rail not sitting flush with the receiver. PSA has issued me an electronic RMA. I'm uncertain whether they'll replace just the rail, the propriety barrel nut or the entire upper. I'm hoping they'll just address the rail/barrel nut because everything else on the upper checks out; There's always the chance that a complete replacement will have a good rail installation but something else wrong with the upper, lol. I'm in the same boat as you, as I'm not sure it's even worth the hassle to return. Your assembly looks a little better than mine, but even with mine I think there should be enough adjustment on the front sight for it to be ok. Barrel is accurate. I was reading about the barrel nut being over torqued and pressing against the gas tube. My gas tube does not appear to be touching anything. I put 80 rounds through it the other day and don't know what they will say if I send it back after firing it. I didn't plan on buying irons anytime soon, so I'm just wondering if the sights will have enough room for adjustment. I want to say it will, but don't want to be SOL a couple months down the road 
|
|
Update
I layed the rifle upside down on a flat counter top as another poster suggested. I can see a slight gap between the rail and counter top, which means all the weight is on the upper receiver. I can push on the barrel and it levels the rail on the counrer. That being said, I can't fit a business card under the rail and counter top; that's how slightly uneven the rail to upper is. I believe that sights can be adjusted for such a small discrepancy correct? |
|
Quoted:
Update I layed the rifle upside down on a flat counter top as another poster suggested. I can see a slight gap between the rail and counter top, which means all the weight is on the upper receiver. I can push on the barrel and it levels the rail on the counrer. That being said, I can't fit a business card under the rail and counter top; that's how slightly uneven the rail to upper is. I believe that sights can be adjusted for such a small discrepancy correct? More than likely, yes. I really like MI I just wish they would change the mounting on their SS rails. |
|
What you are seeing is the difference between different manufacturers of the upper receiver rails.
They are all within "spec" but some are on the high or low end. If you have an upper that has a rail that is made to the high end of the picatinny rail spec then it will sit a little higher. Same as a rail made at the bottom end of the spec will sit a little bit lower. We cannot control every manufacturer of upper out there, so you are going to have a little difference here and there. The minute step you are seeing will have absolutely no effect on your iron sights, they are adjustable to compensate for and variations in manufacturing. If you have any questions please email me at [email protected] Thank You Andy MI |
|
Quoted:
What you are seeing is the difference between different manufacturers of the upper receiver rails. They are all within "spec" but some are on the high or low end. If you have an upper that has a rail that is made to the high end of the picatinny rail spec then it will sit a little higher. Same as a rail made at the bottom end of the spec will sit a little bit lower. We cannot control every manufacturer of upper out there, so you are going to have a little difference here and there. The minute step you are seeing will have absolutely no effect on your iron sights, they are adjustable to compensate for and variations in manufacturing. If you have any questions please email me at [email protected] Thank You Andy MI Thank you for the response. That was my first inclination as the upper receiver, and rail by itself are both level. I took the rail off a few minutes ago and there was dried red crap under the tabs that lock onto the barrel nut. Looked almost like hardened bearing grease. I removed most of it and the rail has even less of a difference now. I was amazed at how light this rail is by itself, off the gun. Pics for reference 
|
|
The red you are seeing is dried loctite, it is used to help secure the hand guard to the barrel nut.
When you reinstall the hand guard please torque the hand guard clamp screws to 35 in/lbs, do not exceed this torque spec. Loctite is provided with the hand guard and recommended for the install to help secure the hand guard to the barrel nut. If you have any questions please send me an email. Thank You Andy MI |
|
OP to be honest, that looked fine to me. Hard to tell from internet pics. Even with all the eyeing, and measuring, it might have zeroed just fine. In fact VERY likely it would have. But as was said, the only real way to know if there truly is a problem is to put some irons on and shoot it or laser sight it. I have much more concern with someone that doesn't know what the "red crap" is, disassembling their rifle for no good reason.
As far as PSA standing behind their stuff after the user shooting some rounds through it, they have no problem with that. However, I think I remember it being stated in their warranty that the owner disassembling major components, voids the warranty though. Not sure if railed handguard falls in that category. My advice is put the thing back together and quit messing with it till you have put some iron sights on and verified there truly is an issue. Borrow some if you have to. You will be able to see with just a laser boresighter if you have an issue. Unless you get a monolithic upper where the upper receiver and handguard rail are machined as one piece, there is simply a little more room for variance when hanging a long chunk of aluminum off the front of your receiver. As long as it zeros within spec, shouldn't be a problem. |
|
Quoted:
Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? Quoted:
Quoted:
I removed most of it and the rail has even less of a difference now. I was amazed at how light this rail is by itself, off the gun. Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? +1 for after pics. |
|
Quoted:
Barrel is accurate. I was reading about the barrel nut being over torqued and pressing against the gas tube. My gas tube does not appear to be touching anything. I put 80 rounds through it the other day and don't know what they will say if I send it back after firing it. I didn't plan on buying irons anytime soon, so I'm just wondering if the sights will have enough room for adjustment. I want to say it will, but don't want to be SOL a couple months down the road
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hi txgunguy, that's my thread you referenced in your post. In my post I referenced this thread, and also found this archived thread where the OP had a similar issue. It seems to be more common than I originally thought. In fact, I've been googling images for this MI SS12G2 rail and it seems that quite a few builds and factory assembled uppers end up with the rail not sitting flush with the receiver. PSA has issued me an electronic RMA. I'm uncertain whether they'll replace just the rail, the propriety barrel nut or the entire upper. I'm hoping they'll just address the rail/barrel nut because everything else on the upper checks out; There's always the chance that a complete replacement will have a good rail installation but something else wrong with the upper, lol. I'm in the same boat as you, as I'm not sure it's even worth the hassle to return. Your assembly looks a little better than mine, but even with mine I think there should be enough adjustment on the front sight for it to be ok. Barrel is accurate. I was reading about the barrel nut being over torqued and pressing against the gas tube. My gas tube does not appear to be touching anything. I put 80 rounds through it the other day and don't know what they will say if I send it back after firing it. I didn't plan on buying irons anytime soon, so I'm just wondering if the sights will have enough room for adjustment. I want to say it will, but don't want to be SOL a couple months down the road
With a legitimate level.. 4' level, put the thing across the upper receiver and measure the difference at the end of the rail where you are going to put your irons.. if it's more distance than can be added by turning a FSB up and down.. then worry.. if not.. you know your answer. |
|
Quoted:
OP to be honest, that looked fine to me. Hard to tell from internet pics. Even with all the eyeing, and measuring, it might have zeroed just fine. In fact VERY likely it would have. But as was said, the only real way to know if there truly is a problem is to put some irons on and shoot it or laser sight it. I have much more concern with someone that doesn't know what the "red crap" is, disassembling their rifle for no good reason. As far as PSA standing behind their stuff after the user shooting some rounds through it, they have no problem with that. However, I think I remember it being stated in their warranty that the owner disassembling major components, voids the warranty though. Not sure if railed handguard falls in that category. My advice is put the thing back together and quit messing with it till you have put some iron sights on and verified there truly is an issue. Borrow some if you have to. You will be able to see with just a laser boresighter if you have an issue. Unless you get a monolithic upper where the upper receiver and handguard rail are machined as one piece, there is simply a little more room for variance when hanging a long chunk of aluminum off the front of your receiver. As long as it zeros within spec, shouldn't be a problem. I've never once heard of a rail being loc tited to the barrel nut. All the instructional videos I have ever watched, do not mention using loc tite on a barrel nut. The post from MI telling me to use loc tite, is surprising. How does loc tite mate smooth surfaces together? I was under the impression that loc tite only works on threaded surfaces. The rail came off with no heat applied, and I barely pulled on the rail. Would red loc tite not melt when rapid firing the rifle like I did a few days ago? I know what dried red loc tite looks like, and as I stated, it appeared to be dried grease of some sort. Maybe after me firing all the rounds it melted and got everywhere? I really doubt that me un screwing 2 screws would qualify as "major components." As far as what the MI rep stated, I bought this upper completely assembled from PSA. So I can't say what was truly done during the install since I wasn't there. |
|
Quoted:
Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? Quoted:
Quoted:
I removed most of it and the rail has even less of a difference now. I was amazed at how light this rail is by itself, off the gun. Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? Unfortunately I won't be home for the next 2 days. I will Friday morning. |
|
Quoted:
I've never once heard of a rail being loc tited to the barrel nut. All the instructional videos I have ever watched, do not mention using loc tite on a barrel nut. The post from MI telling me to use loc tite, is surprising. How does loc tite mate smooth surfaces together? I was under the impression that loc tite only works on threaded surfaces. The rail came off with no heat applied, and I barely pulled on the rail. Would red loc tite not melt when rapid firing the rifle like I did a few days ago? I know what dried red loc tite looks like, and as I stated, it appeared to be dried grease of some sort. Maybe after me firing all the rounds it melted and got everywhere? I really doubt that me un screwing 2 screws would qualify as "major components." As far as what the MI rep stated, I bought this upper completely assembled from PSA. So I can't say what was truly done during the install since I wasn't there. The instructions that are included with the hand guard when purchased new explain the use of the included loctite. The loctite helps secure the hand guard to the barrel nut under heavy recoil, the hand guard can be installed without it but it helps hold things together. As you found out the benefits of the loctite holding the hand guard on do not make it any more difficult to remove the hand guard. I am not a loctite salesman but I know that loctite sets up and hardens without air, so it can be used on more places than just threads, like bearings or bushings for instance. If you would like a set of instructions on how to reinstall the hand guard please send me an email and I can mail one out to you. Thank You Andy MI |
|
Quoted:
The instructions that are included with the hand guard when purchased new explain the use of the included loctite. The loctite helps secure the hand guard to the barrel nut under heavy recoil, the hand guard can be installed without it but it helps hold things together. As you found out the benefits of the loctite holding the hand guard on do not make it any more difficult to remove the hand guard. I am not a loctite salesman but I know that loctite sets up and hardens without air, so it can be used on more places than just threads, like bearings or bushings for instance. If you would like a set of instructions on how to reinstall the hand guard please send me an email and I can mail one out to you. Thank You Andy MI Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never once heard of a rail being loc tited to the barrel nut. All the instructional videos I have ever watched, do not mention using loc tite on a barrel nut. The post from MI telling me to use loc tite, is surprising. How does loc tite mate smooth surfaces together? I was under the impression that loc tite only works on threaded surfaces. The rail came off with no heat applied, and I barely pulled on the rail. Would red loc tite not melt when rapid firing the rifle like I did a few days ago? I know what dried red loc tite looks like, and as I stated, it appeared to be dried grease of some sort. Maybe after me firing all the rounds it melted and got everywhere? I really doubt that me un screwing 2 screws would qualify as "major components." As far as what the MI rep stated, I bought this upper completely assembled from PSA. So I can't say what was truly done during the install since I wasn't there. The instructions that are included with the hand guard when purchased new explain the use of the included loctite. The loctite helps secure the hand guard to the barrel nut under heavy recoil, the hand guard can be installed without it but it helps hold things together. As you found out the benefits of the loctite holding the hand guard on do not make it any more difficult to remove the hand guard. I am not a loctite salesman but I know that loctite sets up and hardens without air, so it can be used on more places than just threads, like bearings or bushings for instance. If you would like a set of instructions on how to reinstall the hand guard please send me an email and I can mail one out to you. Thank You Andy MI Thanks for the help. Email sent. |
|
Quoted:
Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? Quoted:
Quoted:
I removed most of it and the rail has even less of a difference now. I was amazed at how light this rail is by itself, off the gun. Would you mind posting a pic of the reinstall so I can see how much less of a difference there is now? Here are pics after adjusting the rail a little. The difference is so minute, I don't know if you will be able to tell from these pictures. It's a rock solid rail and after the posts from Andy of MI, I'm confident zeroing the irons won't be a problem. A big thanks to him as well. He sent me the installation manual and a couple extras  
Just me, being nit picky was the only problem.
|
AR Sponsor