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Post BDM M261 mag reviews here! (Page 2 of 5)
| Well, I'm still experimenting with the two mags I have. I had no luck with opening up the feed lips to .211 on the front in my last range trip. The rounds were angling up too high when chambering and hanging on the top edge of the chamber mouth. On a second trip to the range I tried my two mag spring mod to my Gen 1 mag, but it had basically no positive effect on getting the rounds to chamber at a less steep angle. I still had stoppages similar to the Gen 1 images on page one I posted. What I noticed from my last range outing is when I spread the feed lips wider to .211 at the opening to allow it to come up to a more shallow feed angle, they don't hold the round body down as needed and the nose pointed too high when chambering resulting in a stoppage. I'm trying to duplicate the stock insert's feed lip opening angle and spread. It's been a challenge, but after a few hours of heating and tweaking, I'm pretty close. The stock insert has an interesting feed lip geometry: the feed lips get wider (.182 to .211) from back to front, but in the process, they don't angle up as they spread (what you would normally see if you took two parallel feed lips and opened them up with a pair of pliers at the end). They spread open while maintaining the same height. In the stock insert, this was accomplished by bending and deflecting the feed lip out slightly and returning as it widens towards the front edge. This geometry seems to allow the round to sit flat against the round below it and be retained by the full length of the feed lips, yet while the rim of the round moves forward, it's allowed to rise slightly to maintain a flatter trajectory into the chamber. I can hand cycle rounds and they feed pretty well, but the true test will be another range session. I hope to do that again this weekend. |
"Hey homie, is that my briefcase?" -- Vincent, Collateral
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I can't really provide any updates, but I talked to Kevin last week and said that he's just waiting on some more results from the beta testers to determine what needs to be done to make the mags work as designed without any flaws. He doesn't want to release a product that is working for half the people and the other have are out of luck. So until the bugs are completely worked out, they won't be going into production. |
Kyle @ Ballistic Sounds Tactical Supply
[email protected]
706-614-6804 Phone
706-995-2284 Fax
www.ballisticsounds.com
[email protected]
706-614-6804 Phone
706-995-2284 Fax
www.ballisticsounds.com
My god I can't wait for these mags.....I even built a shooting range in my basement so I don't have to drive into town all the time to shoot....sad...i know
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"A firearm is like a fine woman. You take care of it and it will take care of you. You don't take care of it and it can be a real Bitch."
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I know several of us Beta testers are trying to resolve the common issue of the round being too low while sitting in the feed lips that results in a barely steeper feed angle than what's ideal. I've talked to Kevin on the phone a few days ago and picked his brain about my range results (my Gen 2 runs perfect with Federal Bulk pack, but won't feed Remington or CCI at all) and possible solutions. I suggested making the feed lips thinner to allow the round to sit slightly higher in the mag but he was worried the thinner the lips were made, the more prone the were to cracking with use (I guess that was a problem on some of his earlier Ciener mags). We discussed moving the mag up into the mag well slightly with a lower mag catch, but he said he didn't think there was enough room left to do that without hitting the bottom of the bolt. We also kicked around the idea of reshaping the feed lips to mimic the stock insert more closely but he wanted to wait and hear back from all his testers and get as much feedback as possible before making more changes. He is fully committed to getting this mag design to run, but he's being cautious about making changes and running more molds until he has results from all of us as well as his Olympic tester. In the mean time, if any of the testers that were sent T&E mags have not sent Kevin your latest range results on either the Gen 1 or Gen 2 mag, PLEASE do so. We are SO close on this mag. If anyone has any other ideas they've tested, send them on to Kevin and let him know if they worked. |
"Hey homie, is that my briefcase?" -- Vincent, Collateral
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I’ve been playing with my M261 and four mag inserts today and it has not been fun. It does not like certain ammo and certain mags. The longer and more tapered (pointed) the bullet is, the better it seams to work. Remington Golden Bullets have a shorter and more rounded nose and I can’t load more than 7 (or in on insert 8) without the bullet catching on the nose as it tries to feed and this is with locking the bolt back before the mag is inserted. If I try to put the mag in with the bolt down then chamber a round, it won’t work with more than 4 or 5 rounds in the mag. This was with the inserts in some USA type 20 round mags that I had bought cheap just as holders for these inserts, and these and the Remington was all I had at the range with me. After I got home, I tried more types of ammo and mags hand cycling through the rifle. The best combo was some CP Products 20 round curved mags (new, I opened them for this) and Federal Plated Bulk Pack from Wal-Mart. Hand cycling this combo was flawless. This ammo is 10 years old, though. I bought BUNCH for a heavy barrel target .22 that I was shooting a lot back then that loved the stuff for some reason, so what you get now may or may not work the same. Bullets on these are a good bit more pointed and slightly longer than the Remington. After today’s experience, I’m not having good feelings about BDM getting a mag to work with a majority of bullets. I would be curious to hear for the beta testers the shape and length of the ammo that works with the BDM mags and the same for the ones that don’t. Camera with a macro setting, anyone? I’m kind of wondering if the BDM M261 mags ever come to market, it’s not going to have to be with some kind of disclaimer like the one that came with my Advantage Arms Glock .22 kit. 
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Federal Walmart Bulk copper-washed ammo is the most consistently reliable .22 ammo I've ever shot, with the possible exception of CCI MiniMags, and I've prolly shot around 30,000 rounds of the stuff in maybe three dozen (or more) different guns. I did get hold of one lot this summer that drove me nuts with misfires (harder than normal brass, I suspect) but other than the occasional glitch of that kind, if a gun doesn't run on that ammo, I suspect something to be wrong with the gun. I suspect that AA got hold of a bad lot of it when they tested for them to come out with a statement like that. The Fed Bulks work almost perfectly in my BDM M261 1Gen mag. I get maybe one misfeed every four magazines or so. I hear LOTS of bad things about Rem TBolts so I don't even mess with them. Rem GBs are also reliable, and feed almost as well as the Fed Bulks. I do have a couple guns that won't feed them, though, and the M261 with the BDM mags is one such combination (they work fine in the GI insert mags). Maybe someone at AA just doesn't like Federal for some reason. Ever buy any Lee reloading stuff? Mr. Lee will tell you not to use certain brands of primers. |
My AA kit won't shoot the Federal, buts it's not a quality issue that I can tell. The Federal that I have seems like it may consistently run a tad larger than the Remington, and the AA chamber seems to be on the small side. I wasn't advocating one brand or type over the other, though. My thought was that it may come down to the BDM mags for the M261 only working reliably overall with certain ammo, whatever that turns out to be, and for a manufacturer to resort to an ammo disclaimer is not unheard of. The Remington I have now was bought for the AA kit. .22 is cheap. If I have to stock another type to get reliable hicap mags, it won't bother me (and probably most people) in the least. |
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The Fed Bulk runs fine in my Rhineland R22, which has a tight chamber. Fed .22 ammo seems to have a somewhat more rounded rim profile than other brands, which can be a cause of stovepiping unless the extractor has a real good hook angle on it. This year I put together a dedicated 1911 .22 on a Ciener kit. It had a fresh USGI mainspring and Fed Bulk would not run it, so I ran Rem GBs through it, which seem to have more oomph. After 5000 of the GBs, though, I found that the gun would run the Fed Bulks fine. The Fed Bulks work well in two other .22 1911s I have with slightly reduced power mainsprings. As I said, the Fed Bulks work fine in my BDM mags but the Rem GBs don't. I want to run the GBs in that gun because they give me groups about half the size of the Fed Bulk groups. (Not that anyone could tell which I was shooting looking at one of my standing targets.  )
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| I had a lengthy discusion with Bob Shutzen (owns olympic arms) today about the m261 project, they have good luck with the cci minimags but nothing else. He told me they think they have the solution so I will be talking with Oly next week to get this thing figured out. Hold on a little longer! |
say what you do, do what you say
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After ruining my 2G trying to mod it, Kevin graciously sent me another one to try, now that I have some idea what I'm doing. Last night I opened up the feed lips in a tapered or wedge shape VERY slightly, not more than a few thousandths. The story to date: My 1G has always run well with up to 20 Fed Bulks but wouldn't feed Rem GBs at all. My 2G wouldn't feed 20 Fed Bulks but would feed a few Rem GBs before I over-modded it. This morning, I loaded my newly modded 2G with 10 Fed Bulks, which all fed and fired fine. Then 20, same story. Then I tried 10 Rem GBs. They worked! Then 20. These also worked! Then I stuffed it all the way up to 25. Horrible misfeed of the first round, and one or two more misfeeds in the first five. But the last 20 fed up and fired just fine. In all I fired five or six magsful of Rem GBs with 20 rounds or more (I got distracted while filling one and put 22 in it, all of which worked fine). I had a couple duds, perhaps one per mag, but these are not unheard-of with Rem GBs. But I had NO feeding problems with them! I fired 200 rounds out of the gun today including a couple 1G mags full of the Fed Bulks with no problems that weren't directly ammo-related! Gonna contact Kevin and see if he wants me to return this mag to him for his testing and to see what I've done to it. Have some faith, folks, I think we're almost there! 
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Good job Snake! I felt the feed lips were the issue as well, but I haven't had time to play with my Gen 2 mag yet. If you wouldn't mind sending pix, I'll try it too, using your mag as a guide.... I will IM you with my email. Thanks, Jon |
Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything,
But they still bring a smile to your face when
you push them down a flight of stairs
Not really good for anything,
But they still bring a smile to your face when
you push them down a flight of stairs
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Jon et al, Pics won't do you much good. I doubt my camera can get close enough, and there's really not much to see. I just opened the lips up to the same dimensions as a 261 mag insert--dimensions given in an earlier post. The lips are wider or more open at the front than at the rear; the lips are not parallel anymore. One thing that might have helped this time is that I did not just shave the inner lips vertically, as I tried before. This time I shaved and then filed parallel to the inner wall of the lip, if that makes it clear. This required a small hobby file to get in there. Theoretically if you can match the inner contours of the lips of a 261 insert that is known to work, then there should't be any reason for the BDM mag not to work too. Remove the floorplate, spring, and follower to make this mod. Makes it much easier to work. It would be even easier to unscrew the mag halves and take it apart, but I'm kind of lazy so I didn't do that. The idea of this mod is to let the rim of the case rise vertically too as the bullet feeds into the chamber. In the stock BDM mag, the rim stays at the same level as the round tries to feed, increasing the angle as it goes, until the angle becomes so steep that the round jams. I did have a couple cases yesterday where the (Rem GB) round fed almost perfectly and was completely free of the mag, but the bolt failed to fully close by about 1/16". This could mean that I need to refine my mod just a bit more, OR it could mean my chamber is dirty or my 261 unit needs to be lubed, OR it could mean that some bullets in that particular box were slightly oversized (not unknown to happen with bulk ammo). But overall I think we're clearly on the right track here. I should have tried to see if it would work with Winchester XPerts. Those can be a problem but if a gun will feed those, it will feed just about anything. Didn't think to try them because I NEVER shoot them in this gun because they are plain lead; I only shoot plated ammo such as Fed Bulks or Rem GBs in this gun because of concerns about gas system fouling. Maybe I'll try a few of those next week and see what happens. |
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Interesting thread! I am having the same issue with my Ciener BDM mags, so I will be paying close attention to this thread, and contribute if relevant. My JAC mags work fine with the Remington GB. I'm going to compare the two and see what the difference is. Will report back with my findings. (Yes, I know there is a Ciener thread, but I have not read of this issue in there.) |
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I am desperately waiting for these magazines to come to the market. Please keep up the great work and keep us in touch as to when they will be available. Thank you, Phessor 
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"In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine"
-Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
-Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
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I spoke with the Olympic Arms Beta tester, Andy Manes. They have been actively testing and modifying their numerous Beta copies. They are providing feedback to Kevin and their company owner was to call Kevin a couple of weeks ago. They envision using the mags for more than 22 caliber. Their version of the mags may be marked with the Olympic Arms name. When Olympic decides to confirm they work, I will feel enabled to buy them with confidence. |
This last weekand at the gun show, I saw BDM Ceiner mags marked with the name of 1 or 2 local vendors, can't remember which. I'm sure Spike's Tactical and maybe Anvil Arms as well. |
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Braved the chill this morning to put another 200 rounds through the M261. At the beginning of the day the gun had been at least 300 rounds since its last cleaning of the 261 unt and chamber, maybe 400 or 500, I can't recall. Again the Gen I worked well with Fed Walmart Bulks. Again the Gen II as modified by me worked well loaded with 20, 21, or 22 rounds of Remington Golden Bullets. I had maybe a dozen malfs, either ammo duds or failures to fully chamber resulting in a "double click" when I pulled the trigger. Both these malfs are either directly related to the ammo or the dirtiness of the unit (or perhaps the cold). Oh, also had some where the round fired and ejected and the next one fed but the hammer didn't cock--apparently underpowered ammo. About the only mag/feeding issues I had today were with the 261 mag insert, the same one that has worked perfectly for me for years. I think it might be getting dirty. I'm very pleased with how the modified BDM 2G is feeding the Rem GBs now. Kevin's been in touch and I'll be returning this mag to him shortly so he can see what I did to it. One more thing: I took a look at the duds and OOB malfs that I ejected and guess what, the bullets were NOT all scarred and grooved up, as happened with Rem GBs in the original 1G and 2G mags. This means that they're feeding cleanly! |
next summer? my god man, thats too far away! |
"A firearm is like a fine woman. You take care of it and it will take care of you. You don't take care of it and it can be a real Bitch."
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I have an M-261 that I bought on the EE. I am unable to use it because the mag inserts need to be placed in regular magazines. Those are illegal here. I welded some rods to prevent ammunition being loaded in some cheap mags but they are not holding the inserts consistently... weak lips. I saw some info about the original inserts. Apparently they sometimes malfunction too. Here is a link to a fix: www.ray-vin.com/frtech.htm It is in the "Chop Shop", "Hack Pages" section. |
I pretend to like sex to get women in bed.
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Illegal here too. We use 10 round Armalite or Olympic steel mags. I am not sure who actually makes these mags - they have a follower that can be pushed all the way to the bottom of the mag. But molded ribs in the side of the mag make it impossible to load more than 10 rounds in the mag. The 261 inserts fit these mags - takes a little or a lot of jiggling but they will seat and that's what we use. YMMV
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| Yes, the Olympic M261 is the original army military kit but with improvements. Olympic purchased the left over parts supply from SARCO and began making the kits themselves. They are currently working with Blackdog Machine to perfect a replacement high cap magazine. Olympic Arms calls their version the RFA (Rim Fire Adaptor). |
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Hello to you all, thanks for the wait. We have been working with Olympic to get this mag tunned up. I think we have the answer and are performing 1 last mold mod. I have a test scheduled next week and if it functions well we will roll right into a 500 part run. We also did a mod to the follower and the spring/gate keeper at the bottom. The parts will have a full radius to help guide the spring when compressing and a 7 degree angle on the bottom part to align it when its commpresed. |
say what you do, do what you say
Any way to pre-order so we can get one of those first 500? |
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government - George Washington
Woohoo... just ordered two and they'll probably be here by the middle of next week. Thanks! |
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government - George Washington
| I sent the first orders today so I would think the first of the week you should see them. I was doing some measuring and my m261 looks like it will fit the Bushmaster carbon 15. Anyone interesting in a free sample to try in a Bushy carbon 15 .22? Or at least look at it to see what needs to be done to make it work. |
say what you do, do what you say
I just got off the phone with you tonight. I can't wait to get try 'em out in my 261 |
"A firearm is like a fine woman. You take care of it and it will take care of you. You don't take care of it and it can be a real Bitch."
Awesome! |
I'm with Fred.
And you can be too: https://www.imwithfred.com/contribute.aspx?RefererID=ac187051-a424-4489-a280-abdbd98a6760
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Got my mags last night and they look great. I went ahead and loaded them up and found that I had to whack the bottom of the mag a few times to get all the rounds in. I first filled it until I couldn't get any more in it, gave it a good whack, and pushed another 4 or 5 in. Didn't get a chance to shoot 'em since I don't get home until after dark, but I should be able to do some plinking either Wednesday or Saturday with them. |
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government - George Washington
Post BDM M261 mag reviews here! (Page 2 of 5)
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