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Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 7/25/2009 9:12:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon][Edited]
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Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots. There are those on this website who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false. To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets that I scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation. Attached File Attached File Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”. Attached File With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”. Attached File Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”. Attached File ... Here’s a little demonstration of the “practical accuracy” obtainable when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. For this exercise, I used a 14.5” chrome lined, NATO chambered carbine. Shooting was done from the prone supported position. From a distance of 50 yards, I fired ten quick shots at an FBI “Q” target. The results . . . ten “bullets in the brain pan, squish!” Attached File The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.18”, which at 50 yards is equivalent to 2.26 MOA; far smaller than the 4 MOA dot on the Aimpoint. Again, this disproves the spouted nonsense that “practical accuracy” is not possible when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. Attached File ......... |
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| That's pretty good shooting. I usually shoot 50 shot groups like that, but at 50 yards and with a 2 moa. I always shoot against a black target. Your results are excellent with 4 moa. What kind of trigger on that gun? mine is just stock single stage 8-10 lbs. I have to really concentrate to not screw up my groups. |
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Great read as always.
Most of the Aimpoints I've owned have been 4MOA. I have never found it difficult to shoot groups smaller than 4" at 100 yards with them. Granted, I don't shoot consecutive 1.1" groups, but I don't have any Krieger barrels or anything free floated at the moment. |
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Good read! I've been working with an Aimpoint at 100 yards and can't seem to get smaller than around 4.5"-5" 10-round groups. I'm using a COMP M w/3MOA dot.
My groups using irons in the exact same conditions are usually @3". Is there a trick to shooting with an Aimpoint? I shoot against a 3" black bull but have a hard time keeping the dot centered during the trigger pull and usually have a consistently wide spread with not a lot of directional bias. I had the same problem shooting with a low power scope, my groups opened a lot due to the crosshairs wandering around, I'm doing the same thing as when I shoot with irons but that just doesn't seem steady enough? |
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Great eyes and good technique to manage that.
I've got an astigmatism that makes for nice trailers coming off the dot in multiple directions with my 3MOA CompM2 dot. One of these days maybe I'll throw it on my JP rifle and see what I can manage but I'm so used to having magnification for any kind of precision shooting. One question I beg to ask about your technique, did you shoot both eyes open? LONG ago I used a Trijicon Reflex NSN and found point of impact shifts depending on how I used the sight, if I closed down the polarizing filter to act like an OEG my point of impact would shift from my point of aim. If I opened up the polarizing filter and sighted through it with my left eye closed I had a different POI. Then there was both eyes shooting with the polarizing filter open, then I hit to point of aim for my zero. Haven't tried such a thing with my Aimpoint. I do tend to shoot my magnified optics with both eyes open but my brain is more accepting of switching back and forth between images due to the magnification of a 4.5-6.5+ magnification scope. I can readily accept the image of the left or right eye with magnification but during extended periods of time my eyes can play tricks on me with the non-magnified red dots. |
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Was it a cloudy day or sunshine? I went out today my first time with my CompML2 and had to turn it up to 7 just to see the DOT at 50 yards in brite sunshine, not to precision shooting i thought un-magnified.
I plan to build a AR that specifically dedicated to 50-100 and big scope.Keep the Aimpoint Gun for no more then 25 to 50 yard shots.But i got it sighted in anyway. |
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Originally Posted By texjames:
Was it a cloudy day or sunshine? I went out today my first time with my CompML2 and had to turn it up to 7 just to see the DOT at 50 yards in brite sunshine, not to precision shooting i thought un-magnified. I plan to build a AR that specifically dedicated to 50-100 and big scope.Keep the Aimpoint Gun for no more then 25 to 50 yard shots.But i got it sighted in anyway. 
That Aimpoint of yours is more than effective out to 200 yards and beyond... |
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Smallest group I have been able to get with my 4 moa aimpoint is about 2.5 moa.
I can get that with irons on a good day. Good shooting. |
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Range Report: Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots. There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false. To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets that I scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation. http://www.box.net/shared/static/q9l5quki4y.jpg http://www.box.net/shared/static/qmpuquyrp1.jpg Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/m97mctqy35.jpg With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/sd5xfhre13.jpg Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/vcm40jjrx5.jpg What ammo were you using? |
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I think the problem people have with this scenario is that they look at the dot size as a limiting factor, like in chemistry. If the dot is 4 MOA then that is the minimum group size, right?
However, look at this more closely. If you have a 4 MOA dot and a 4 MOA target, and you perfectly center the dot on the target for a 10 round group, then your group should be limited only by the inherent mechanical accuracy of your weapon. Make sense? Jay |
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Good work Molon but here is a little tip to help you shoot smaller groups. Set the dot brightness as low as you can and use the top edge of the dot for your aiming point, thus allowing you to see more of the target. By using a 6 O'clock hold like you would with iron sights your groups will be smaller. Aim small, miss small. 
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| Thanks for the range report. I have been looking into purchasing an Aimpoint and have been wondering what kind of groups I would get out to 100 yards. I wonder if the groupings would have been sub moa if you had a magnifier? |
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Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
Thanks for the range report. I have been looking into purchasing an Aimpoint and have been wondering what kind of groups I would get out to 100 yards. I wonder if the groupings would have been sub moa if you had a magnifier? All i can add is great shooting and outstanding vision. In the Texas bright sun at 100 yards even to be able to see my dot it looks the size of a basketball on the target down there.At 50 yards it looked like a baseball. I cannot get tight groups like that.For me the aimpoint is better for tactical and a magified scope with cross hairs for 50 to 100 yards,at least for tight groups. I would like to try a Aimpoint Magnifier though. I can group pretty tight with pep iron sight better then just Aimpoint dot out 50 to 100.Thats all I shot with M16 in the Military. |
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Originally Posted By texjames:
Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
Thanks for the range report. I have been looking into purchasing an Aimpoint and have been wondering what kind of groups I would get out to 100 yards. I wonder if the groupings would have been sub moa if you had a magnifier? All i can add is great shooting and outstanding vision. In the Texas bright sun at 100 yards even to be able to see my dot it looks the size of a basketball on the target down there.At 50 yards it looked like a baseball. I cannot get tight groups like that.For me the aimpoint is better for tactical and a magified scope with cross hairs for 50 to 100 yards,at least for tight groups. I would like to try a Aimpoint Magnifier though. I can group pretty tight with pep iron sight better then just Aimpoint dot out 50 to 100.Thats all I shot with M16 in the Military. thats my experience. I cant even see the target behind my aimpoint that far away. I am going to pick up a 3x mag soon too... |
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Originally Posted By dsg2003gt:
Originally Posted By texjames:
Originally Posted By Gatorhunt:
Thanks for the range report. I have been looking into purchasing an Aimpoint and have been wondering what kind of groups I would get out to 100 yards. I wonder if the groupings would have been sub moa if you had a magnifier? All i can add is great shooting and outstanding vision. In the Texas bright sun at 100 yards even to be able to see my dot it looks the size of a basketball on the target down there.At 50 yards it looked like a baseball. I cannot get tight groups like that.For me the aimpoint is better for tactical and a magified scope with cross hairs for 50 to 100 yards,at least for tight groups. I would like to try a Aimpoint Magnifier though. I can group pretty tight with pep iron sight better then just Aimpoint dot out 50 to 100.Thats all I shot with M16 in the Military. thats my experience. I cant even see the target behind my aimpoint that far away. I am going to pick up a 3x mag soon too... Thanks for reponding thats kind of what I was thinking ... was just wondering how it would do 100/+ yards with the magnifier. |
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Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
Good work Molon but here is a little tip to help you shoot smaller groups. Set the dot brightness as low as you can and use the top edge of the dot for your aiming point, thus allowing you to see more of the target. By using a 6 O'clock hold like you would with iron sights your groups will be smaller. Aim small, miss small. 1+ set the light setting as low as possible against a black target. |
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Originally Posted By reelserious:
Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
Good work Molon but here is a little tip to help you shoot smaller groups. Set the dot brightness as low as you can and use the top edge of the dot for your aiming point, thus allowing you to see more of the target. By using a 6 O'clock hold like you would with iron sights your groups will be smaller. Aim small, miss small. 1+ set the light setting as low as possible against a black target. Yeah i need to try black target.A freind of mine said he saw some black targets that when ya put a hole in it the outline is orange. Kmart he thinks. |
| If you dont have perfect vision the Aimpoint IS a handicap. I cant do better than 2MOA and useually do 3-4 MOA... not becasue of the size fo the dot but becasue I cant tell where the edge of the dot actually IS. It is kind of just a blurr to my 20/40 eyes with moderate astigmatism. |
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Originally Posted By RatzAzz:
Thank You for taking the time and effort to do this. I would like you to know that you are part of the reason I paid for my membership to this site. There is plenty of bullshit out there, you tell it like it is, Thanks. You're quite welcome. |
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Originally Posted By uglygun:
I've got an astigmatism that makes for nice trailers coming off the dot in multiple directions with my 3MOA CompM2 dot. I have the same problem, in both eyes, but it's worse in my dominant eye. I refer to it as the "star-burst" effect. 
One question I beg to ask about your technique, did you shoot both eyes open? LONG ago I used a Trijicon Reflex NSN and found point of impact shifts depending on how I used the sight, if I closed down the polarizing filter to act like an OEG my point of impact would shift from my point of aim. If I opened up the polarizing filter and sighted through it with my left eye closed I had a different POI. Then there was both eyes shooting with the polarizing filter open, then I hit to point of aim for my zero. You might find this thread interesting. |
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Originally Posted By robert60446:
The problem with 4 MOA dot is not accuracy / consistency but dot size. 4 MOA dot covers 4 times more target than 1 MOA dot - simple as this. You can "clamp" to bench AR with Eotech and use only 60 MOA ring on it to produce equal results... Unless the dot is covering ALL of the target, so you can't see the edges of it, it's still just a matter of maintaining a consistent hold. You center the dot on the target the same way every shot, and you're going to shoot smaller groups, all other things being equal. |
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Originally Posted By RatzAzz:
Thank You for taking the time and effort to do this. I would like you to know that you are part of the reason I paid for my membership to this site. There is plenty of bullshit out there, you tell it like it is, Thanks. +1 |
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I hope this puts some of that silliness to rest. |
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Originally Posted By Eric802:
Unless the dot is covering ALL of the target, so you can't see the edges of it, it's still just a matter of maintaining a consistent hold. You center the dot on the target the same way every shot, and you're going to shoot smaller groups, all other things being equal. Right on spot - however when bullets are flying over your head usually you don't have a time to sit still on the bench and maintain "consistent hold"...in real world situations 1 MOA dot offers smaller margin of error than 4 MOA dot - especially at longer distances... |
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Originally Posted By yolop:
Pretty dry and undamaged targets for it to be pouring down rain. Good shooting. You obviously failed to observe the ink running on the first two targets as well as the bullet holes being larger on the first two targets due to the paper being wet. |
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I purchased a Comp M3 2MOA Aimpoint on a LaRue LT-150 mount a while back .
It was a tough decision at the time . I had a chance to try both on somebody elses carbines. I don't really shoot much paper ,I prefer 3D targets. Soda cans are one of my favorites. I Placed soda cans scattered from 50 to 150 yards. I noticed with a 4 MOA dot I could switch targets faster up close and the dot was just plain easier to pick up. However,once I reached 100 yards and more I had problems seeing the cans past the dot ,so at 100 and beyond the 4 MOA dot was slower then the 2 MOA dot. When I took my time to shoot ,I could hit glf balls at 100 with the 2 MOA even though it blocked it out . I couldn't do it as much with the 4 MOA . Keep in mind I'm very shortsighted and have glasses built like the hubble telescope ,so that could alter the dot size appearance at range for me . Also ,I have to turn up the 2 MOA Aimpoint pretty high to make out the dot easily during bright sunshine. The 4 MOA dot seemed like I could leave it at a lower setting and possibly save power/battery time . I'm still not sure if my choice of the 2 MOA dot and the LT-150 was the right way to go . Threads like this keep me rethinking that . 
Perhaps the 4 MOA dot and the cannelure version of the LaRue mount for longer eye relief would have been the right way to go for me . I'll have to try it out more on my next carbine ,and change both to the one I prefer . I guess I'll just keep practicing with the 2 MOA until I can afford another Colt 6920,and I'll get the other Aimpoint and mount combo on that one . |
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Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
Good work Molon but here is a little tip to help you shoot smaller groups. Set the dot brightness as low as you can and use the top edge of the dot for your aiming point, thus allowing you to see more of the target. By using a 6 O'clock hold like you would with iron sights your groups will be smaller. Aim small, miss small. Huh? Your tip is rather insulting to Molon's remarkable shooting skill. Why tip? Just post your results with 4 MOA dot Aimpoint. |
| Just to agree with you. I've used the Aimpont M68 CCO for 300m+ shooting at ranges and stress shooting courses before. Did a range competition with others where we shot standing and moved back 25 yards until we missed twice. I stayed in till 175, the winner lasted until 225. So it can be used for that purpose. |
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Originally Posted By kudzu630:
Just to agree with you. I've used the Aimpont M68 CCO for 300m+ shooting at ranges and stress shooting courses before. Did a range competition with others where we shot standing and moved back 25 yards until we missed twice. I stayed in till 175, the winner lasted until 225. So it can be used for that purpose. Neat competition - how big was the target you were shooting at? |
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Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report (Page 1 of 3)
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