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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Problems With Federal XM193? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/17/2007 12:09:32 AM EDT
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I read on another board there were some problems with this ammo and was wondering if anyone had specifics? Thanks |
Occasionally this stuff comes pretty dinged up, but for the most part, it rarely happens. It is by far (in my opinion) the best of the surplus/mil spec ammo on the market... well it was on the market.... not much available anymore. If you find it for less than 6.50 a box, buy it. Only other problem I have ever heard is some people who have a reading comprehension problem and put 5.56mm ammo into a .223 chamber and wonder why their gun is now broken. Then the fudds go and tell everybody that xm193 (or q3131/a, m193, etc etc) is bad ammo. Just because it fits in the chamber doesn't mean it's right, it's your responsibility to find out if it will work with your gun. |
What a coincidence. I think something is a rye! 
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Only issue I've had (other than the availability issue) is a batch I picked up the was tarnished a fair amount, and not old stock, 06 stamped. I think that would have been a warehouse storage issue. Wiped em down with a polishing cloth before putting em on strippers, and no problems. As is, they were catching on each other when cycling the bolt. Now I'm down to a few hundred But just reloaded a botaload of 55fmj to fill the stocks back up.
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the newer XM193 in the brown boxes (i have lot numbers in the 140s) i have had no problems with so far. the brass isn't pretty but lake city doesn't have a "bling bling" requirement. the loose packed XM193 (sometimes called XM193PD) in 1000 rounds i had about 15 that i deemed "unsafe" to fire. in order of most common problems it was: dings in case neck (9/15), bullet seated too deep (5/15), split case (1/15)... |
Please stop playing this cryptic little game of yours. Spit it out man... what's your issue with XM193???
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I never said I had any problems with it! Pat Rogers posted this on another forum Due to the multiple and major QC problems with the XM ammunition, Federal is ceasing sale of that ammunition. __________________ Since I recently purchased quite abit of it to store away I wanted to find out if anyone knew anything about this??????????????? Yes I emailed Pat but he hasnt got back to me as of yet. You guys need to learn to relax alittle. |
Linking to G-rant's site is verbotten. Scroll down to the XM193 comment here and I think you will see part of the issue: Link IIRC, this was 2006 production. NYPatriot provided some ATK documents on what they now sell to the public. It will be interesting to see how much longer XM193/XM855 will be offered. |
I still don't see where this quoted statement is...? Especially the part about Federal ceasing sales. |
I'm not calling you out, but I'm not buying that. It's current production, comes in a box with the mfg name on it and it's their liability if the ammo is to blame. |
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=319955
& www.thegunzone.com/556xm.html
I think you got bad intel KYOSHI... Federal is suspending sales of bulk packaged PD ammo, not individually boxed XM193. |
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The OP's subsequent statement attributed to Pat Rogers appears to have come from M4carbine.net. There is no amplifying information in the thread. My link addressed a 2006 lot of XM193 used in class that turned out to have each round tested produce an average 61,000 psi or proof load. Not good for business. NYPatriot, do you think "PD" has any correlation to pull down? Or was it inadvertently included in the paragraph. "PD" looks funny between two sentences dealing with the "pull-down" designation. Any idea on the date of the ATK comment on thegunzone? |
The BOX is a critical element if things go wrong...you may be right, but I still think it is surplus. I'd hate to find out the hard way. |
| I spoke to Mike at Federals technical division and he said they havent had any problems. I also asked what he would prefer to shoot AE or XM193 and he said he likes the XM193. He also told me that all of the XM193 is 100% Lake City and Federal owns Lake City and distributes the LC under the Federal name since LC cannot dist to the civilan market. He also said Federal backs the XM193. |
Did you say to him something like, "Due to the multiple and major QC problems with the XM ammunition, Federal is ceasing sale of that ammunition"? Did you then ask if Federal was ceasing sale of XM193? |
Read the E-mails from ATK again, Submariner. It's clear that "PD" is short for "pull down" & that "CS" means "commercial sales". |
| IIRC Pat Rogers has reported on 10-8 that one lot that was used in a class resulted in many malfunctions. Again, IIRC some of the ammo was pulled from that lot and pressure tested (can't remember if independently tested or sent back to Federal). Anyway, it tested way high for pressure. Like almost proof load high. |
Got a lot #??? |
Maybe not complete BS, but not the whole story either, IMO. My best guess would be that some LEOs' showed up for Pat Roger's' class with XM193PD & they had some problems with it. When Pat inquired about the ammo they told him it was XM193 without realizing that there is a BIG difference between that bulk packed trash & clean, quality boxed XM193. We've all seen pics of what can be found in a box of PD... split case necks, improperly seated bullets, uncrimped primers, way too much sealant, dented cartridges that look like they were run over by a cement truck, etc... Thus, it's not too difficult to imagine that one of the problems that might also relegate XM193 to the PD bin is an out of spec. powder charge. Combine some hot charges with some split necks & uncrimped primers and you have the makings of a bad overpressure rumor. I don't think it is coincidence that Federal has stopped selling PD ammo to the public. They probably realized that there was too much legal risk in selling that junk. Sure, 99.9% is safe to shoot as practice ammo, but that remaining fraction of a percent just might blow up somebody's gun; costing them their eyesight, and Federal millions of dollars in compensation. All this is pure speculation of course, but I have a hunch that I'm more right than wrong. |
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I did a search for "XM193 Squib" awhile back, one came up .Again in a Pat Rogers class,back in 2003 ,shooter had a squib with Lot 1 XM193.....thats the only malfunction I have ever heard of in boxed XM193...I've personlly shot thousands of Lot 1 and still have thousands left, never a malfunction . Longhunter |
Definitely not "internet ammo rumor bullshit." Doing a search of 10-8 and Pat_Rogers for "XM193" yields two hits, the first of which, which deals with testing the suspect ammo, is in my post on page 1. The second, a response to my question on ammo type, yields the following:
The key words: "a few boxes". Do you think that several bulk pack containers were given by the cops to Pat and sent on to Federal for testing or some of the "clean, quality boxed XM193"?  The XM193 in question was 2006 head stamps and, yes, I shoot it, too (2004/2005).Federal doesn't test suspect ammunition for just anyone. This is a big deal, particularly in the light of the documents you posted (dated May '06). I agree with you on Federal withdrawing the ammo due to the liability issue, particularly if "PD" stands for "pull down". If so, I'm surprised that made it past Federal's lawyers. |
It may not be completely baseless rumor, but I think MUCH more is being made of it than is warranted. Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of rounds of Federal XM193 have gone down range without a problem, so to suddenly condemn this ammo because of some extremely limited anecdotal evidence posted on the web is shortsighted IMO. First off, your first link does not give us any indication of which XM193 was tested (boxed vs. PD). Your second link states "The ammo kept on popping primers into the carbines. After we reamed the chambers, the offensive uppers ran well." Even Roger's admits that it was the "uppers that were offensive", not the ammo. If it had been the ammo, the overpressure symptoms would not have magically disappeared when the chambers were reamed to proper spec. Lastly, Federal has been contacted by posters in this thread & they have said that they are unaware of any problems associated XM193. Believe me... if they knew a dangerous batch of ammo was floating around in the consumer market they would recall it for liability reasons. Can any manufacturer put out a bad batch of ammo? Sure. But until I see any real evidence that something is amiss, I will continue to buy XM193 when I can find it. |
I bought some yesterday, XM193 Lot-143 2006, I have to agree with NYPatriot, if there was any serious problems Federal would announce it. But, it does leave that little doubt in your mind.
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It says, "XM193," not XM193PD. A clue? "Several boxes" were given by the cops to Pat to have tested. Another clue? I was in the class right after the one that had the problem. Malfunctioning cop carbines was a "hot" topic since they were called out during the class. (I think SWAT cops probably know the difference between XM193 and XM193PD, don't you? Yet another clue?) No ammo problems after reaming the DPMS chambers? Hardly. How many proof loads would you like to run through your carbine? One at the Colt factory is plenty for me. If you or I had none of the affected lot, it would be easy to talk about "extremely limited anecdotal evidence." However, if that it what we bought, then our perspectives might be different... Is too much being made of it? Perhaps. I know what Pat posted on M4Carbine and that he is a pretty reliable guy. I no longer buy XM193, partly because of the outrageous price and partly because of "extremely limited anecdotal evidence" from Boone County. The next time I see him (soon, I hope), I'll ask him for the basis of his comment. OK? |
Actually no... I would not automatically expect any LEO to know about subtle differences in ammo type. Cops (even SWAT) are often not "gun guys". They see their firearms as tools of the job, and that's it. You're giving them way too much credit in this area! Submariner... you seem emotionally invested in proving your point. I suggest that you chill out for the sake of your blood pressure. I intend to contact Federal/ATK tomorrow & ask them about this specific issue. If they give XM193 a clean bill of health (and I expect that they will) I will personally consider the matter closed. In either case, I'll post their response. After that, you go your way on this subject & I'll go mine. |
Hunch? Let's do facts. All of them. Those that support your "hunch" AND those that don't. ETA: Few of the folks whom I have met over 5 years, LEO or otherwise, at Boone County Sheriff's Department-sponsored training are NOT gun guys. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Problems With Federal XM193? (Page 1 of 2)
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