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Posted: 12/1/2010 8:58:25 AM EDT
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I now seem to have most of what is needed to build two A1's...have two Colt A1 complete uppers and have buttstocks and pistol grips that are proper. I suppose to do this right, I'd need two NDS A1 lowers. Is that correct? Just how visible are the differences between the current A2 lower and the A1 lower used circa late 70's? I think the A1 lowers were more of a grey color as oppsed to more black in the later lowers??? Is it worth it to go with the NDS lowers as opposed to more easily obtained (and less expensive) current lowers??
Jeff |
| Proper A-1 would be NDS. Depends on what you want and your wallet. This is a retro forum where being parts correct is almost essential. Of course most rifles here are just assembled surplused parts guns and not factory pieces with a few very very nice exceptions, as the strict laws prohibit most anything else unless you really have the dough. Everyone has a preference but that would probably be a different forum. The members here are top notch for the most part and you get much less BS than most other places. |
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Yes, it's worth it to get an NDS lower. In addition to color, the A2 has noticeable reinforcement at the back. Not a big deal for most people, but for retro heads, it's just not right. & the reinforced pivot pin lugs, the lack of "fire & safe" markings on the right side. To the OP: It is definitely worth buying a NDS lower, especially how you are concerned about what is proper for an A1 build. |
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Besides all these other valid reasons, the NDS lower is just higher quality than most every other lower. +1 also, they engineered it so it's stronger than a regular A1, nearly as strong as an A2 but looks right. You are not giving up anything. NDS lowers are the highest quality lower receiver I've ever used - I won't use anything else from here on out. |
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I assume then that NDS' A1 lower would be absolutely proper for my Colt A1 uppers? There weren't partial fence lowers running around with A1 uppers on them were there? Just want to get this right if I am going to go all the way with the project. Thanks, Jeff We need more information - what markings are on the barrels, etc. I have to say, however, if you wanted to build an earlier, XM16E1 clone with a later barrel such as a 'chrome-lined' marked barrel, I don't think anyone would give you a hard time. FWIW, some details that are considered a 'given' about A1's like the trapdoor buttstock didn't appear on the scene until '71 or so - so there were a LOT of M16A1's built with the earlier 'D' type stock that had C MP C marked barrels. (Chrome chamber). Give us specifics (pics help) about the two uppers and we can date them much better for you, then you can make an informed decision. Like I said though, building an early gun with a later barrel is your perogative - particularly now that earlier barrels are getting rarer. If, by some chance, you have a barrel that would be better for an Xm16E1 build, it'd be a shame however not to build it up as such...see what I'm saying? We need details such as color of upper, (grey? black? does it look refinished?) forge codes or lack of forge codes in the carry handle, rebated front pin, and of course markings on the barrel. Check between the legs of the FSN on RH side, and also front 3 inches of the barrel carefully and tell us what you see. |
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I assume then that NDS' A1 lower would be absolutely proper for my Colt A1 uppers? There weren't partial fence lowers running around with A1 uppers on them were there? Just want to get this right if I am going to go all the way with the project. Thanks, Jeff We need more information - what markings are on the barrels, etc. I have to say, however, if you wanted to build an earlier, XM16E1 clone with a later barrel such as a 'chrome-lined' marked barrel, I don't think anyone would give you a hard time. FWIW, some details that are considered a 'given' about A1's like the trapdoor buttstock didn't appear on the scene until '71 or so - so there were a LOT of M16A1's built with the earlier 'D' type stock that had C MP C marked barrels. (Chrome chamber). Give us specifics (pics help) about the two uppers and we can date them much better for you, then you can make an informed decision. Like I said though, building an early gun with a later barrel is your perogative - particularly now that earlier barrels are getting rarer. If, by some chance, you have a barrel that would be better for an Xm16E1 build, it'd be a shame however not to build it up as such...see what I'm saying? We need details such as color of upper, (grey? black? does it look refinished?) forge codes or lack of forge codes in the carry handle, rebated front pin, and of course markings on the barrel. Check between the legs of the FSN on RH side, and also front 3 inches of the barrel carefully and tell us what you see. OK..will check the two uppers out. Might be fun to know more about them. I'll get back after the weekend and using a magnifying glass on them. I suspect late 70's though....think because I spent some time in one of the tacked threads above somewhere a while back. Jeff |
| It is and was not uncommon to see later M-16 uppers on earlier M-16 lowers especially after a couple of years in service with the M-16 rifle for many reasons. You still see A-2 uppers in service with A-1 lowers. Many times armorers only fixed what was broken and there are many period dated pictures that show these examples. For a brand new issued rifle there will be dated changes in the parts used for that time period, but manufacturers also used up the parts on hand, so internals could and did vary during transition. Earliest lowers were no fence, next would be partial fence, and lastly and current full fence which as stated is more reinforced in areas deemed prone to breakage. I say go with what you want it to look like as in normal situations the lower receiver is really not a stressed part. If you want period correct, look to Colts rifle guide on this retro forum at the top of first page and also retroblackrifle forum has pictures of parts for the correct Colt rifle model. Color match is probably the most noticeable and important part of the puzzle and if it matters to you match it up. If spending your coin then next would be period correct but with NDS they all cost the same so again it's personal preference. Personally for me first is how well the rifle performs then what it looks like and the parts inside. Colt parts should be the best but they fail and break also. The majority of rifle clones here have many non-Colt internals for the most part due to availability and high initial costs. |
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Quoted: It is and was not uncommon to see later M-16 uppers on earlier M-16 lowers especially after a couple of years in service with the M-16 rifle for many reasons. You still see A-2 uppers in service with A-1 lowers. Many times armorers only fixed what was broken and there are many period dated pictures that show these examples. For a brand new issued rifle there will be dated changes in the parts used for that time period, but manufacturers also used up the parts on hand, so internals could and did vary during transition. Earliest lowers were no fence, next would be partial fence, and lastly and current full fence which as stated is more reinforced in areas deemed prone to breakage. I say go with what you want it to look like as in normal situations the lower receiver is really not a stressed part. If you want period correct, look to Colts rifle guide on this retro forum at the top of first page and also retroblackrifle forum has pictures of parts for the correct Colt rifle model. Color match is probably the most noticeable and important part of the puzzle and if it matters to you match it up. If spending your coin then next would be period correct but with NDS they all cost the same so again it's personal preference. Personally for me first is how well the rifle performs then what it looks like and the parts inside. Colt parts should be the best but they fail and break also. The majority of rifle clones here have many non-Colt internals for the most part due to availability and high initial costs. Cdenmark, excellent post, but geez, you type just like willp (another retro member). Dude. Paragraphs. Use them.    |
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OK...Having some wine and checked the markings on my A1 uppers. Both have identical marks as far as I can see.
Forge Code - CH Port door - rectangular Front sight direction - raised Front sight base - C and a bell mark, any flashing seems to have been ground off Barrel - C MP Chrome Bore Color - grey Upper receiver lugs - grey Forward assit - teardrop Flash hider - A1 So....for the expert here....late 70's? Correct would be a full fence lower, but possible would be partial fence lower as an armorer refit? Anything else I should be looking for to identify these? Thanks guys. Hope you are having a good weekend. 
Jeff |
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OK...Having some wine and checked the markings on my A1 uppers. Both have identical marks as far as I can see. Forge Code - CH Port door - rectangular Front sight direction - raised Front sight base - C and a bell mark, any flashing seems to have been ground off Barrel - C MP Chrome Bore Color - grey Upper receiver lugs - grey Forward assit - teardrop Flash hider - A1 So....for the expert here....late 70's? Correct would be a full fence lower, but possible would be partial fence lower as an armorer refit? Anything else I should be looking for to identify these? Thanks guys. Hope you are having a good weekend.
Jeff early '70's....my guess would be, late '73 - early '74 from the sticky M16 variations guide at the top of the page: Effective in December 1971 at about serial number 4,700,000 along with the chamber the bores were chromed, early ones were marked C MP B. The C means Colt’s, the M means Magnetic particle inspected, the P for Proof fired, and the B for chrome Bore. The barrel extention on these not chromed: 
from the USGI Colt 603 buyers guide stickied at the top of the page: 1972-1982 M16A1 round forging forge code, CK used 1972-1973, CH used 1974-1982 (CM used in small number 1972-1973) gray lugs Colt proof marked gray/blue anodizing standard A1 port door matching slip ring FSB with forging flash front and back C and Bell marked C MP B barrel transitioning to C MP CHROME BORE in 1974 bird cage flash suppressor modern gas tube handguards have drain holes in the heat shields and are marked L & R 
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OK...Having some wine and checked the markings on my A1 uppers. Both have identical marks as far as I can see. Forge Code - CH Port door - rectangular Front sight direction - raised Front sight base - C and a bell mark, any flashing seems to have been ground off Barrel - C MP Chrome Bore Color - grey Upper receiver lugs - grey Forward assit - teardrop Flash hider - A1 So....for the expert here....late 70's? Correct would be a full fence lower, but possible would be partial fence lower as an armorer refit? Anything else I should be looking for to identify these? Thanks guys. Hope you are having a good weekend.
Jeff early '70's....my guess would be, late '73 - early '74 from the sticky M16 variations guide at the top of the page: Effective in December 1971 at about serial number 4,700,000 along with the chamber the bores were chromed, early ones were marked C MP B. The C means Colt’s, the M means Magnetic particle inspected, the P for Proof fired, and the B for chrome Bore. The barrel extention on these not chromed: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/barrelCMPB.jpg from the USGI Colt 603 buyers guide stickied at the top of the page: 1972-1982 M16A1 round forging forge code, CK used 1972-1973, CH used 1974-1982 (CM used in small number 1972-1973) gray lugs Colt proof marked gray/blue anodizing standard A1 port door matching slip ring FSB with forging flash front and back C and Bell marked C MP B barrel transitioning to C MP CHROME BORE in 1974 bird cage flash suppressor modern gas tube handguards have drain holes in the heat shields and are marked L & R http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/M16A1%20upper%20guide/71-82small.jpg Thanks. Bottom picture looks just like my uppers. Forgot to check the handguards, but remember them being marked left and right. You guys are a great resource. Jeff |
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OK...Having some wine and checked the markings on my A1 uppers There's the retro dilema in a nugget.....the proper wine for review of these uppers, based upon what the troops were mostly drinking in that era, would probably have been Mateus or Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill, possibly MD-20/20 or Thunderbird. Do not ask me how I know this. But inasmuch as those aren't as popular today as they used to be back-in-the-day, you probably weren't drinking any of those. So here's the deal as I see it. You are gonna be building an approximation of a real rifle, so you can go ahead and build it however you want to. But I would respectfully suggest a nice dry red from the Texas Panhandle, and a full-fence lower from NODAK. Can't go wrong with either. Your call. Let us know how they work out for you. We likes pics velly velly muchly. |
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