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Posted: 1/9/2011 1:07:14 PM EDT
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Although I've been a practical pistol shooter for a while, I am fairly new to the rifle world. I'm trying to decide on which 5.56 NATO AR15 to buy first. I have hopes of participating in 3-Gun competitions with it in the future.
I like to buy quality and am willing to pay extra for it. I know –– I can probably put together a rifle that's "good enough" with less expensive parts, from Bravo Company for example; but like I said, from life experience I like to buy quality items that perform better, have fewer problems, hold their values better (values sometimes increase with quality items) and that give me the peace of mind, satisfaction and pleasure of owning something solid. I have done some research and as far high quality factory rifles, I'm down to the Larue OBR 5.56 and the LMT CQB MRP (probably gas piston.) I'm leaning heavily towards the Larue OBR because at $1995, it costs sightly less, comes with better extras and arguably, probably has equal or slightly better quality. But I'm also wondering about custom AR15s which are significantly more expensive. For example, the TacticalRifles.net Tactical AR15 is $2395 base and over $2750 with the same extras that come standard with the Larue. I can understand custom builds for long range precision rifles, but I'm not sure about them for shorter range tactical rifles like the AR15. Questions: 1. Are custom AR15s that much better than quality factory rifles like the ones from Larue or LMT? What makes them better? TacticalRifles.net comes with a 20-inch Krieger barrel and you can choose your twist rate, but what else am I getting? Do custom rifles shoot more accurately? (The Larue is guaranteed sub-MOA and I suppose I could put a Krieger barrel on it if it made a significant difference, possibly making it sub-sub MOA.) Are custom AR15s only worth it if you plan to do precision match shooting? 2. Any other recommendations? Are there any higher quality AR15 factory rifles, better than Larue or LMT? Are there better custom AR15s, better than TacticalRifles.net? Are Olympias Arms or Rainier Arms, which are geographically close to me in Washington State, any better? . |
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The two best reasons to build yourself is you save some money with all parts/quality/features being equal. And two, you can build it exactly the way you want with the parts you want. The advantage to buying factory is usually a better warranty, factory support if it doesnt run right and you dont have to invest in special tools. |
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Daniel Defense. You will not be sorry. Like this one? DANIEL DEFENSE M4 CARBINE, LARRY VICKERS SIGNATURE SERIES It's $3000, but it's loaded. . |
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The two best reasons to build yourself is you save some money with all parts/quality/features being equal. And two, you can build it exactly the way you want with the parts you want.
Can someone give me an example of parts that would produce a better AR15 than the Larue OBR 5.56 for significantly less money? I can always replace the stock on the OBR if I find out I'm not crazy about it. The trigger –– a Gieselle SSA –– seems pretty good. Not sure about the barrel. Not sure what else I would do differently. The advantage to buying factory is usually a better warranty, factory support if it doesnt run right and you dont have to invest in special tools. You are right about the factory comprehensive warranty –– more peace of mind, less trouble. A quality factory build might also hold its value better because buyers know what they are getting. . |
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Daniel Defense. You will not be sorry. Like this one? DANIEL DEFENSE M4 CARBINE, LARRY VICKERS SIGNATURE SERIES It's $3000, but it's loaded. That is a pretty sweet setup. I did a breakdown of parts on another forum for this rifle and it's priced pretty well. Considering it comes all setup as is with waranty in place with all new parts and acessories. I'm sure you could spend a year building a similar rifle for less, but why? It all depends on what you want to use the rifle for. The DD isn't a benchrest gun. |
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Daniel Defense. You will not be sorry. Like this one? DANIEL DEFENSE M4 CARBINE, LARRY VICKERS SIGNATURE SERIES It's $3000, but it's loaded. Eeehhhh $3000 is a bit too much for a DD. Get this one if you want a factory DD: M4 Carbine V5 LW $1469 for rifle $200 for troy BUIS (or you could go cheaper and get magpul or the fixed DD BUIS) $600 for aimpoint H-1 on larue mount $230 for surefire x300 Total: $2499 and that's with much more expensive irons and LW middy barrel. The larry vickers signature one you pay a lot extra just cuz it's a larry vickers edition. Oh, and I guess the Vltor/TD furniture which is nice, but what if you prefer something different? Alternatively you could wait a month for the smartgunner.com deal to come back and build one even cheaper, in which case you can replace the $1469 with ~$230-350 for a complete lower (depending on what you get and if you assemble it yourself) and ~$700-750 (or cheaper if you decide to go without the rail system) for a complete upper, made custom exactly how you want it. |
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The two best reasons to build yourself is you save some money with all parts/quality/features being equal. And two, you can build it exactly the way you want with the parts you want.
By "custom," I was thinking of an AR15 built by an expert gunsmith, like TacticalRifles.net. How much better are they versus do-it-yourself? Are they only good for precision match AR15s? . |
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Daniel Defense. You will not be sorry. Like this one? DANIEL DEFENSE M4 CARBINE, LARRY VICKERS SIGNATURE SERIES It's $3000, but it's loaded. Eeehhhh $3000 is a bit too much for a DD. Get this one if you want a factory DD: M4 Carbine V5 LW $1469 for rifle $200 for troy BUIS (or you could go cheaper and get magpul or the fixed DD BUIS) $600 for aimpoint H-1 on larue mount $230 for surefire x300 Total: $2499 and that's with more expensive irons and LW barrel. The larry vickers signature one you pay a lot extra just cuz it's a larry vickers edition. Oh, and I guess the Vltor/TD furniture which is nice, but what if you prefer something different? Alternatively you could wait a month for the smartgunner.com deal to come back and build one even cheaper, in which case you can replace the $1469 with ~$230-350 for a complete lower (depending on what you get and if you assemble it yourself) and ~$700-800 for a complete upper, made custom exactly how you want it. You missed quite a few parts and shipping for those parts on the LAV rifle. When everything is added up, it's roughly a $200 premium you pay over all the parts seperate (not including shipping). I didn't think this rifle would sell for MSRP, though. I was figuring it would go for $2800. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The two best reasons to build yourself is you save some money with all parts/quality/features being equal. And two, you can build it exactly the way you want with the parts you want. By "custom," I was thinking of an AR15 built by an expert gunsmith, like TacticalRifles.net. How much better are they versus do-it-yourself? Are they only good for precision match AR15s? . Putting it together yourself saves on excise tax and labor. If I was paying someone else to build it I would get by with the Daniel Defense V3/ BCM REECE-14/Colt 6940 put a dot, light and go. I only ever change the pistol grip on factory guns anyway. Going with a shop that will build you a rifle the way you want it exactly would probably save you in the long run as well. Even factoring in the excise tax and labor, IF you know what parts you want used and wont change them down the road. Thats what gets you tying up more money in an AR and a shoebox of worthless parts. |
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That is about $525 less than the Larue OBR 5.56. The Daniel Defense M4 V5 LW is a great value, but is it better in overall quality? They both seem like great rifles. Here is a comparison: Larue OBR 5.56 features: - Guaranteed sub-MOA accuracy (with Federal GMM, 77 grain ammo) - Proprietary handguard design keeps the rifle cool, aids in accuracy and ease of handling - Unique fully freefloating barrel and barrel-nut design, that does not touch the handguard at any point, aids in accuracy - Upper, lower and rails are CNC-machined from 7075-T6, Type-III hard anodized - 10 MOA built into a continuous, T-marked, 1-piece upper rail - Drop-down at rear of rail, for zero MOA when using iron sights - Lower is low-shelf, to accommodate RDIAS - Flared magwell allows faster mag changes - Large trigger opening, with integral trigger guard - Bolts and bolt carriers are hand-polished hard-chrome, in M16 profile - LW-50 stainless steel barrels in 12”, 16.1", 18" & 20" lengths - Barrels are finished in black Manganese Phosphate - Wylde chambered in 5.56mm NATO - Polygonal rifling - 1/8 twist-rate rifling. - 10,000-round barrel life (approx) - Muzzle threading: ½ x 28 - Direct gas-impingement: 12” is carbine-length, 16” and 18” are mid-length, and 20” is rifle-length - Port Selector Technology (PST) gas block - Geissele SSA Combat Triggers, two-stage, average 4.5lb pull weight.(2.5 lbs on the first stage and 2lb on the second stage) - Mil-Spec receiver extensions on 12”, 16” and 18” - Three, 3” long, MIL-STD-1913 detachable rail sections (and mounting hardware) included - Magpul CTR Stock, UDE colored, on 12”, 16”, and 18” models (The 20” comes with an A2 Stock, in black). - Magpul MOE Pistol Grip, UDE colored, on 12”, 16”, and 18” models The (The 20” comes with an A2 Grip, in black). - Weight of 16” model (with 30 round magazine): 8.79 lbs Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V5 LW features -Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well and Rear Receiver QD Swivel Attachment Point -Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps -Barrel: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 twist, 16″ Lightweight Profile, Mid-length Gas System, Chrome Lined, MP tested, and Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate coated -Chamber: 5.56 NATO -Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider -Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key -Buffer: H Buffer -Gas Block: Daniel Defense Pinned Low Profile Gas Block -Handguard: Daniel Defense Omega X Rail™ 12.0 -Buttstock: MAGPUL MOE Buttstock & Mil-Spec Receiver Extension -Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black -Vertical Grip: Daniel Defense A2 Styling Vertical Grip -Rail Cover: (3) Daniel Defense low profile rail ladders -Case: Comes with Custom Daniel Defense Full-Latch Impact Plastic Case -Weight(no sights): 6lb 5oz Side-by-side feature comparison: -Daniel Defense is $525 less -Larue comes with sub-MOA guarantee -Larue comes with a Gieselle SSA Trigger -Larue comes with a stainless steel barrel -Larue has hard chrome bolts and bolt carriers -Daniel Defense has a MAGPUL MOE buttstock; Larue has a MAGPUL CTR buttstock -Larue has MAGPUL MOE pistol grip -Larue has 10 MOA -Daniel Defense is lighter at 6lbs 5oz, versus 8.79 lbs for the Larue (but is there more ruggedness with more weight?) -Larue talks about free floating barrel; Daniel Defense is silent on this Anything else? Can I assume that build and parts quality between Daniel Defense and Larue are exactly equivalent? In my mind it's a toss-up, with maybe a slight lean towards Daniel Defense M4 since everyone here seems to favor it, although my instincts are saying that I will get more quality with the Larue OBR. . |
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Ok... You asked so ill throw it out there.
Very recently (as in last week) was offered an 18" kreiger barrel from compass lake for $310 off of a guy on the EE, I passed on it as i would end up wasting the barrel while im learning precision shooting. Ended up going with a DPMS Mk12 barrel which has gotten awesome reviews and is a bit more my speed as far as my skill level. That was $188 from Midway DPMS MK12 SS 18" Rifle length barrel - $188 (could go with a 18" WOA for what... $270ish?) Fail Zero Stripped Upper - $118 Fail Zero BCG - $248 Upper Parts - $20 CH - 14 Lower - call it $90 all in PSA LPK w/o FCG - $55 Geissele Super Semi-Automatic Enhanced Trigger - $200 Samson EVO Rail - $200 VLTOR A5 - $225 Total - $1358 Now lets break down WHY i think this is the best rifle for me, and possibly you... and why exactly i feel this is overall a BETTER rifle than anything any custom builder.. or factory builder will give you. 1. The Fail Zero parts make it EXTREMELY reliable... possibly even to the point of overkill, this rifle will never let you down, lubed, not lubed, wet, dry, cold, hot, whatever. hell on a precision type rig, this may not even be needed... you won't be lugging this thing from point A to point B under adverse conditions and such.. so you could nix this and go cheaper.. a BCM blem upper and a BCM standard BCG if you like. I personally like the peace of mind and benefits Fail Zero offer. - This is not an option you can get from any custom builder. Also these are the parts that RUN your rifle... not the place i like to skimp. 2. The barrel... see this is the hard part, I chose this barrel because i am NOT competition precision shooter.. and currently the weak link in the equation is me... so while im bettering the equation i am not sitting there burning out a $500 barrel... its pointless. Once i (or you) can shoot better than my barrel... then its time for an upgrade. 3. Trigger is important.... Geissele is number 1. You could go with a cheaper rail... a cheaper stock (hell go with an A2.) These are other places you can skimp on the parts. This build will NOT out shoot a Larue... but overall it would be a knockdown drag out shooter that would serve you night and day no matter what and being a new shooter... would shoot better than you can. Use your leftover for a scope and ammo. Thats my opinion... and im no expert.. so take it for what its worth. btw... between those 2 you said... go Larue no questions asked. |
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I have been on here a little over a year now ,and I don't hear to much about custom rifles like the one you are looking at .I'm sure people on this site have them but for the most part it's all regular brand or build it yourself rifles .The Larue is like a custom rifle on this site and everybody that has one seems to love them.
That's a lot of money for a custom rifle when you could buy a top quality rifle from LMT ,COLT,Daniel Defense,BCM,and others and add all the accessories that you need as you go.I don't shoot 3 gun,but my understanding is it's run and gun not bench shooting.So you would be served better by an M-4 type gun than a bench rest gun. Take a look at a Colt 6920 and then look at all the stuff you can put on these rifles, you can come up with a rifle that suits your needs as they arise. Any of the above mentioned guns including Spikes guns are some of the top brands out there and will not let you down. 
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I can probably put together a rifle that's "good enough" with less expensive parts, from Bravo Company for example Are you saying you think BCM (Bravo Company) is not on the same level as the other guns you are looking at? Because that would be incorrect. |
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Ok... You asked so ill throw it out there. Very recently (as in last week) was offered an 18" kreiger barrel from compass lake for $310 off of a guy on the EE, I passed on it as i would end up wasting the barrel while im learning precision shooting. Ended up going with a DPMS Mk12 barrel which has gotten awesome reviews and is a bit more my speed as far as my skill level. That was $188 from Midway DPMS MK12 SS 18" Rifle length barrel - $188 (could go with a 18" WOA for what... $270ish?) Fail Zero Stripped Upper - $118 Fail Zero BCG - $248 Upper Parts - $20 CH - 14 Lower - call it $90 all in PSA LPK w/o FCG - $55 Geissele Super Semi-Automatic Enhanced Trigger - $200 Samson EVO Rail - $200 VLTOR A5 - $225 Total - $1358 Now lets break down WHY i think this is the best rifle for me, and possibly you... and why exactly i feel this is overall a BETTER rifle than anything any custom builder.. or factory builder will give you. You seem to use the word "better" far too much. Better is not the word you are looking for. Those specs are really no better than any top shelf factory rifle. Different, but not better. |
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Just start out with a great factory rifle thats an all around weapon..accuracy,reliability irons or optics.
Colt 6920 $1200 BCM rifles in the $950 $1000 range Spikes $800 all 3 of these models have top quality tested parts and materials according to the TDP and are on par with one another. I also think Daniel Defense,Sabre defence and LMT are all quality equivilents as well with top quality tested parts and materials.I have barrels from all of those+Noveske but no spikes maybe they will offer barrels some time in the future I would love to have one. |
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Now lets break down WHY i think this is the best rifle for me, and possibly you... and why exactly i feel this is overall a BETTER rifle than anything any custom builder.. or factory builder will give you. You seem to use the word "better" far too much. Better is not the word you are looking for. Those specs are really no better than any top shelf factory rifle. Different, but not better. You and me have had this out before... I FEEL that Fail Zero parts are better than any other offering out there. See its right there in red "feel" its my opinion. Same manufacturered specs and testing, but with a "better" coating than standard phosphate or anodizing. I don't nit pick your opinions on parts, yet you always seem to nitpick my and others opinions on parts.. even when presented as my personal opinion and i back up WHY i feel that way. Sorry for having a differing opinion than you on what is better than standard. |
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Now lets break down WHY i think this is the best rifle for me, and possibly you... and why exactly i feel this is overall a BETTER rifle than anything any custom builder.. or factory builder will give you. You seem to use the word "better" far too much. Better is not the word you are looking for. Those specs are really no better than any top shelf factory rifle. Different, but not better. You and me have had this out before... I FEEL that Fail Zero parts are better than any other offering out there. See its right there in red "feel" its my opinion. Same manufacturered specs and testing, but with a "better" coating than standard phosphate or anodizing. I don't nit pick your opinions on parts, yet you always seem to nitpick my and others opinions on parts.. even when presented as my personal opinion and i back up WHY i feel that way. Sorry for having a differing opinion than you on what is better than standard. Like anyone else (including myself) who posts their feelings or opinions on an open forum, prepare to have them challenged. There are people who have posted their feeling that a flashlight on an AR15 is not needed. They have been challenged. You can "nitpick" my opinions on parts all you want. If I post something I am putting it out there for anyone to scrutinize. |
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Why is POF not mentioned here?
Not pushing their product, but if I was going to be buying a ne AR I would be looking at this. http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c36/joebowen1911/CIMG0251.jpg Also Have you seen an FNH SCAR? http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as70/scar-l_all.jpg |
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Olympic Arms makes decent barrels. My Mother said never to say anything bad about someone else. They do make decent barrels.
Noveske makes great rifles. Larue makes great rifles. I like LMT, without the piston. Bravo Company, White Oak Armament, Ranier Arms, Denny's Guns, Compass Lake Engineering all make very good barrels. Most of them are actually machined by Frank White's shop, CLE. But one of WOA's 18" SPR barrels, they aren't too expensive but are very accurate. I just think building it yourself is the way to go. You will get exactly the finished product you specified and nothing you didn't want or need. You will also discover that the assembly and inner workings of these rifles are easily understood. You will no longer be at the mercy of others when it comes to shipping costs, waiting delays, gunsmithing charges. Pay great gunsmiths to do what they do best (turn barrels), you do the rest. |
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