Quoted:
I I have read threads which say pistols may be converted back and fortgh from pistol to rifle if the appropriate barrel lengths/stock or no stock is used.

That's wrong and you unfortunately read the wrong threads; however, it's somewhat difficult to enforce.  Enforcement for many is part of the equation.

I thought lowers were lowers until built? I'm pretty sure I saw a BATF letter to that effect on here.

Prior to the new "stripped receiver" category implemented by the BATF, lowers were logged at the factory as either rifles or pistols whether they were completed or not.  If a receiver was logged at the factory as a rifle,  then it's a rifle forever unless you want to register it per the National Firearms Act of 1934.  So yes, it does matter how it was logged at the factory because the factory log is evidence.

If I decide to buy a used ar pistol how do I know for sure the lower was never registered/used as a rifle?

Write the factory and ask how the receiver was logged.

I don't want to spend time in jail. I will probably be stopped and the serial number checked as I plan on carrying the handgun occasionally.

Law enforcement does not "check" serial numbers unless they have probable cause.  If it's legal to own a pistol in your state, you would have to be doing something else really wrong for it to even register to call the factory to see how your receiver was logged.  You'd have bigger problems to deal with at that point.

Quoted:
Thanks for the replies. Since I do want to play it safe I guess I'll just a lower marked and registered as a pistol. That way I can be sure I won't have a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point this handgun was taken from me and checked (to what degree I don't know). I plan on legally carrying it openly in town.

Quoted:
I have read what seems to be a million threads on AR pistols. I am going to try and build one. I have read the BATF theards that the lower does not need to be marked pistol. I have also read threads that you may need a manufacturers letter stating that the lower was never used as a rifle lower. I have read threads which say pistols may be converted back and fortgh from pistol to rifle if the appropriate barrel lengths/stock or no stock is used.

So, I am a litlle confused. Please bear with me.

I called Spikes tactical to see about getting a sl-15 or st-15 lower for $90. The description says rifle and I called and asked if I could use it for a pistol build and they said no the lowers had been registered as rifle lowers.

I thought lowers were lowers until built? I'm pretty sure I saw a BATF letter to that effect on here.

If I decide to buy a used ar pistol how do I know for sure the lower was never registered/used as a rifle?

I don't want to spend time in jail. I will probably be stopped and the serial number checked as I plan on carrying the handgun occasionally.

From the text letter found here http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=200876
If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA.  Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.  

Quoted:
If you want to play it safe, you're much better off getting a CCW.  Openly carrying an AR pistol isn't exactly the most discrete way of carrying a firearm.  In most states you CAN ccw an AR pistol, so I'd suggest going that route.

Quoted:
I'm in the exact same boat.  I just got notice today that my 3 Spike's Lowers were shipped and are on their way to my dealer.  I actually called and talked to someone at Spike's yesterday about this, he told me that they consider all their receivers rifles unless otherwise noted by the "Pistol" engravings on their pistol lower.  I brought up the fact that the receiver was stripped and that it had not previously been assembled, but he still expressed that from their standpoint unless I got a specified pistol lower that it was considered a rifle receiver.

My dealer is of the same mindset, he want's confirmation from the manufacturer that the receiver is a "pistol" receiver.  Now I'm getting the impression that the lowers I purchased won't be able to be utilized in a pistol configuration.  I guess I just don't understand how a stripped lower can be considered a rifle or a pistol...

Quoted:
When a manufacturer machines a receiver they log it into their records as either pistol or rifle.  However, If the stripped receiver is transferred to you as "other, receiver" on the 4473 then you can build whatever you please.  

THE ONLY FORM THE BATFE CARES ABOUT IS THEIR 4473 FORM.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
"If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun ( rifle or shotgun ) it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun."

Quoted:


When a manufacturer machines a receiver they log it into their records as either pistol or rifle.  However, If the stripped receiver is transferred to you as "other, receiver" on the 4473 then you can build whatever you please.  

THE ONLY FORM THE BATFE CARES ABOUT IS THEIR 4473 FORM.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
"If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun ( rifle or shotgun ) it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun."

Quoted:



Yes, that's the letter that contradicts every other "end user" letter that says contact the manufacturer.  The problem with that letter is that it's not directed at the end user.  It was written for FFL's so they could understand which box to check.  It really doesn't help the end user as it's always the log books the ATF uses to determine whether something was a pistol or rifle.  And I know for a fact that S&W used to log their stripped receivers as rifles and now they are logged as stripped receivers when they leave the factory.  S&W provides a documentation slip with their stripped receivers so you know which is which.  And while those logged rifle receivers may have been checked "other" on the 4473, the document that came with them said they were rifles.    

There was a transition period that caused much confusion.  The letter is a "sort of" cover-your-ass letter, although since it was directed strictly to FFL's, I'd be leery about how it applies "out of context" to the end user.  Because you see, the purpose of that box was to prevent selling stripped receivers to those under 21 (or does it, I'm not sure why that box was necessary).  I'm pretty sure it doesn't give FFL's the power to strip down rifles thus magically allowing the conversion to pistols once processed through a 4473.  That authority is still controlled by the Gun Control Act of 1934 which says once a rifle, always a rifle, unless it's registered.

Quoted:
You do know that you do not need a special "pistol" marked lower don't you?  There is no legal or other reason-other than being a member of the tin-hat crowd-that you need a special marked lower for a pistol.  Buy any stripped lower or even one complete but with no stock, and make sure on the 4473 it is not described as a "rifle" lower receiver and you can build it into a pistol.  The makers only mark them pistol because they know there are a bunch of paranoid people out there who will pay extra money for the word "pistol" on the lower and that word has absolutely no legal meaning.
If you buy a special marked pistol lower and build it up into a rifle, it is a rifle from that time on, forever and ever and having the word "pistol" on it does not mean squat.
I don't understand paying more money for a lower because it has the word "pistol" on it, especially when it has not been made into anything yet.  See tacked letters at the top of this forum.  What's next, selling stripped lowers with the word "rifle" on them.  I bet some would pay extra for that too.

Quoted:


Read the letters from the ATF.  It is nice to have it documented as such but that is not an absolute requirement and those letters suggesting that were written before the "other" section was added to the 4473.  For one thing most lower sellers or makers will not give you such a letter and having it marked on the lower doesn't mean a darned thing.   A stripped lower is a stripped lower and is not a rifle or pistol until assembled by the end user regardless of how it might be logged in some mythological log book someplace.  So what if the maker lists it as a pistol in their log book someplace, if it is built into a rifle it is a rifle.  And even if it is listed in their book as a stripped rifle lower, by virtue of it being stripped it means it has never been assembled so once again, you are free to assemble the first build into whatever you want it to be, rifle or pistol or with the proper paperwork, SBR or AOW.  
If it is a stripped and sold new, it is neither a rifle or pistol and that is exactly what your receipt is going to show you bought, a new stripped lower receiver.  Why do you think the ATFE put a new section on the 4473 (#18) for frames and receivers that are neither long gun or pistol, but "other?"
Lower makers do not go around assembling lowers into rifles or pistols, then disassemble them to be sold new to customers.  That does not make since and since the lowers have never been assembled, the fact they are new and listed as "other" on the 4473 is all the ass covering you need.
The letters from the ATFE never said you HAD to have them listed on the 4473 as pistol, they said that they should not be listed on the 4473 as "rifles."  This too was before the "other" section so with this new section being added, I cannot believe we are still discussing the need for special lowers marked "pistol" or anything else.  Buy a damned stripped lower, have it listed as "other" on the 4473 and go build whatever the hell you want, and use the $100 you save for a LPK or down payment on a pistol upper.

Quoted:

The BATF does not care whether or not the factory will help you out with a record; they only care if it helps them out.  It's the end users' responsibility.
Yes, but the burden of proof falls on the prosecution and in many cases it will be hard to prove that a receiver had been assembled previously as a rifle if it was shipped directly from the manufacturer.

I have read all the letters to end users posted here and elsewhere and they all say contact the manufacturer, not the FFL.  
As big-bore pointed out those letters are all dated before the change on the 4473.

BigBore quotes:

Why do you think the ATFE put a new section on the 4473 (#18) for frames and receivers that are neither long gun or pistol, but "other?"

He never answers this question, but I will. They wanted a legal remedy to prevent receivers from being sold to those under 21 so they created one through an interpretation of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
That is your opinion, not a fact and I disagree.  I believe (OPINION) they created the new section to clear up the confusion on their end, where people would assemble virgin stripped receivers into pistols because the receiver had not previously been assembled as a rifle, although it may have been logged as a rifle receiver in the manufacturers record it was never assembled.  The confusion created in those situations is what I believe made them add the new section.  A pistol or rifle may be built upon a virgin stripped receiver that has not previously been assembled no matter how it was logged in any book.  But if the receiver at ANY point is assembled into a rifle it is no longer a "virgin" receiver, it is a rifle from assembly forward.

Lower makers do not go around assembling lowers into rifles or pistols, then disassemble them to be sold new to customers. That does not make since and since the lowers have never been assembled, the fact they are new and listed as "other" on the 4473 is all the ass covering you need.

More than likely, but under this interpretation, FFLs now have the power to convert rifles to pistols by checking the box on a 4473. I'm 100% sure the BATF did not give them this power. If you look at it from this standpoint, the 4473 only matters in relation to what the manufacturer has logged.
Negatory, it is no longer a virgin receiver.

Quoted:
No, reality is that you will plea bargain before you go broke.  That's the economics of fighting legal theory when applied to the BATF.
I believe we live in a republic where you are innocent until proven guilty... but then again if you want to plea bargain by all means go ahead, I know I'm not doing anything wrong.

The suggestion that the BATF altered the 4473 to help the end user build a pistol is absurd.  You can't be serious.
Yes, I'm serious.  You mistook my opinion, read it again.  To help the end user? They limited the end users to the age of 21+, they helped clear confusion behind the assembling of virgin receivers into a pistols which was already legal to do and being done.

The only people that know that a receiver is virgin is the manufacturer.  Everyone else is just guessing.  
So how about you ask the manufacturer for a statement that the receiver is indeed virgin if your tinfoil hat is on so tight...

Quoted:


That July 7, 2009 BATF letter says a receiver is not a rifle or pistol. Spikes says their receiver is a rifle receiver. Does that mean that spikes is wrong in logging these receivers as rifle receivers? Should they just be logging them as "other than a rifle or shotgun" or something else?

Quoted:


Spikes or any other MFG can do whatever the Hell they want - but they  control neither the BATF's opinions  or what an FFL is required to DO  

If your FFL Dealer gets a stripped receiver directly from the MFG HE MUST USE THAT CATEGORY ON THE 4473!!!
HE CAN NOT SELL IT AS A RIFLE OR PISTOL!!

And if your state allows it you can make that receiver into a rifle OR Pistol.  
 

Quoted:
Spike's has a STRIPPED PISTOL LOWER ON SALE FOR $90!!!  Just get that.  It's even marked PISTOL!!!  

Jim

Quoted:


Spikes or any other MFG can do whatever the Hell they want - but they  control neither the BATF's opinions  or what an FFL is required to DO  

If your FFL Dealer gets a stripped receiver directly from the MFG HE MUST USE THAT CATEGORY ON THE 4473!!!
HE CAN NOT SELL IT AS A RIFLE OR PISTOL!!

And if your state allows it you can make that receiver into a rifle OR Pistol.  
 

Quoted:
I plan on legally carrying it openly in town.

Quoted:


Spikes or any other MFG can do whatever the Hell they want - but they  control neither the BATF's opinions  or what an FFL is required to DO  

If your FFL Dealer gets a stripped receiver directly from the MFG HE MUST USE THAT CATEGORY ON THE 4473!!!
HE CAN NOT SELL IT AS A RIFLE OR PISTOL!!

And if your state allows it you can make that receiver into a rifle OR Pistol.  
 

Quoted:


Like when you hang out at the mall ?

Quoted:



I'm prohibited from carrying at most of the malls in the Nashville area as they have posted their properties with signs prohibiting the carrying of firearms.

I do, however, open carry where there are no signs or irregardless of signs to the contrary in State parks.

Quoted:


irregardless indeed!