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Posted: 7/16/2011 4:55:59 PM EDT
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I want to build a 20" AR-15 for Tactical Shooting. This will be the first rifle I have ever owned, and my only familiarity with the AR-15/M-16 is my prior use of the M-16 in Vietnam back in the 1970's. I decided to go with an AR-15 because it is such a versatile platform and there are soooo many sources for gadgets and add-ons - but now I am finding that the wide variety of options has me somewhat bewildered, so I could use some help:
1. Upper and Lower Receivers are available from tons of suppliers, but some offer receivers manufactured from "Billets" versus "Forgings". Could I expect longer life or more accuracy if I go with receivers machined from "Billets"? Do you have a preferred manufacturer or one you would stay away from? (DPMS, JP Enterprises, Mega, CMT, LMT, LAR, Palmetto State????) 2. I am planning on using a 20" Match Grade, 1:8 twist, Button Cut, Stainless Steel Krieger barrel. I decided on SS because I was told that none of the manfacturers can apply a truly uniform chrome coating along the entire length of the barrel and that this lack of uniformity can effect your accuracy. (Is that true?) 3. I keep seeing upper kits advertised as A1, A2, A3, A4, M4, "preban", "postban", etc. All of this has me really confused. I want: - a flat top rail, so I can mount optical sights - a float tube so my barrel is isolated from the bi-pod or sling and all external forces with nothing to effect barrel harmonics. - a real removable flash/noise suppressor. - Which kit "model" am I looking for? 4. Does anyone out there have any particular recommendations??? Thanks for any advice |
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I want to build a 20" AR-15 for Tactical Shooting. This will be the first rifle I have ever owned, and my only familiarity with the AR-15/M-16 is my prior use of the M-16 in Vietnam back in the 1970's. I decided to go with an AR-15 because it is such a versatile platform and there are soooo many sources for gadgets and add-ons - but now I am finding that the wide variety of options has me somewhat bewildered, so I could use some help: 1. Upper and Lower Receivers are available from tons of suppliers, but some offer receivers manufactured from "Billets" versus "Forgings". Could I expect longer life or more accuracy if I go with receivers machined from "Billets"? Do you have a preferred manufacturer or one you would stay away from? (DPMS, JP Enterprises, Mega, CMT, LMT, LAR, Palmetto State????) No difference... at all. except billet costs more. 2. I am planning on using a 20" Match Grade, 1:8 twist, Button Cut, Stainless Steel Krieger barrel. I decided on SS because I was told that none of the manfacturers can apply a truly uniform chrome coating along the entire length of the barrel and that this lack of uniformity can effect your accuracy. (Is that true?) true to an extent. you'll be hard pressed to find a better barrel than a kreiger.. and comparing a chrome lined barrel to a krieger is a joke. 3. I keep seeing upper kits advertised as A1, A2, A3, A4, M4, "preban", "postban", etc. All of this has me really confused. I want: - a flat top rail, so I can mount optical sights - a float tube so my barrel is isolated from the bi-pod or sling and all external forces with nothing to effect barrel harmonics. - a real removable flash/noise suppressor. - Which kit "model" am I looking for? 4. Does anyone out there have any particular recommendations??? what is your budget? be detailed... optics included? upper or complete rifle? Thanks for any advice |
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1. I don't see the need for billet or very expensive upper or lowers unless you are pro. I used Palmetto State (PSA) lowers and PSA lower parts kits for my last 2 builds. They are good to go. As the last poster said, there are a few good quality, mid price range parts out there. I would be comfortable building using lowers and uppers from Daniel Defense, S&W, Spikes, Bravo, PSA. Same with part kits, but i would add Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River.
2. Good choice in barrel. Yes, chome coat does affect accrucy some, but it lasts considerably longer. I don't see a need for chrome coating unless your shooting 10,000 rounds a year. 3. Speaking about uppers only. I am over simplifying this, but the most obvious difference is the carry handle or lack of. A1 very early gen M16/AR15 typically with fixed carry handle no elevation adjustment. A2 next gen with fixed carry handle with elevation. A3 has a picatinny rail with or without removable carry handle. A4 and A3 are almost interchangeable, but the A4 refers mostly to a specific weapon. M4 is a specific weapon which has a carbine length gas system, 16" barrel with nade launcher groove, A2 front sight, adjustabe stock, etc. Pre ban is the configuration that was allowed before Clinton's assault weapon ban. Which is legal now. Post ban limits flash hiders, mag capacity, etc. I would build an rifle gas system, free float tube with top rail and modular add on rails (Midwest industries or Troy), low pro or railed gas block with flip up BUIS on the top rail, A2 stock. It sounds like you want an A4. Look up the A4 picture thread. A4 pic thread 4. Keep it simple and add as yo go. Read the FAQs. |
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1. Forged is just fine and cheaper. Pretty much any lower will do. I am not sure about uppers.
2. Why 20"? What tactical kind of shooting are going to do? 3. Surefire might have the kind of brake you want that will allow suppressor use. 4. Depends on your tactical shooting. |
| I want to build an AR-15 that will be very accurate out to 400-600 yards, and have been told that I would need a 20" or longer 1:8 twist barrel to maintain velocity and accuracy at 400+ yards. I would prefer a shorter barrel for ease of carry, but have been told that there is a steep drop off in velocity of a .223 round after 300 yards when you use a shorter barrel, thus effecting accuracy at longer ranges. Anyone have any data on that? |
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I want to build an AR-15 that will be very accurate out to 400-600 yards, and have been told that I would need a 20" or longer 1:8 twist barrel to maintain velocity and accuracy at 400+ yards. I would prefer a shorter barrel for ease of carry, but have been told that there is a steep drop off in velocity of a .223 round after 300 yards when you use a shorter barrel, thus effecting accuracy at longer ranges. Anyone have any data on that? I have shot my 16" WOA barrel to 715 yards. Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, and with decreased velocity you just need to know your dope and have a little more confidence in reading the wind. |
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. |
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. how do you think barrel length effects it? |
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. In theory, the shorter the barrel - the more accurate. In practice, this difference is so small it is immeasurable even off of a rest. |
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. how do you think barrel length effects it? The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity, the more spin is imparted for stabilization of the bullet. Granted... there becomes a point of diminishing return... but if you don't believe me, shoot a snub-nose .357, then shoot a .357 with a 6" barrel and then tell me which one is more accurate. Does the difference between a 16" barrel and a 20" barrel on an AR-15 make any difference? Probably not a noticeable one, but if you were to compare say a 10" SBR to a 20" barrel on an AR... I'd be willing to bet the 20" barrel would blow it away. |
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. how do you think barrel length effects it? The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity, the more spin is imparted for stabilization of the bullet. Granted... there becomes a point of diminishing return... but if you don't believe me, shoot a snub-nose .357, then shoot a .357 with a 6" barrel and then tell me which one is more accurate. Does the difference between a 16" barrel and a 20" barrel on an AR-15 make any difference? Probably not a noticeable one, but if you were to compare say a 10" SBR to a 20" barrel on an AR... I'd be willing to bet the 20" barrel would blow it away. interesting... i would think in your analogy the sight radius of a snubby vs. a 6" would have more to do with it than the barrel length... im not contradicting you.. just saying. would this same effect be noted if you slapped it in a vise? i really am not qualified for this particular discussion... just always interested in hearing more opinions about things like this. |
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Well, maybe I'm mistaken... I'm reading things where folks are saying if you put the two in a ransom rest it won't matter... perhaps it is just a misconception due to sight radius.
Hey... I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong... I've just always been taught that longer barrels are more accurate. Probably a blanket statement that should have instead said a longer sight radius is more accurate. Interesting stuff! You learn something new every day. 
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*snip* Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy... *snip*
You don't really believe that, do you? Of course barrel length affects accuracy. The differences mentioned may not affect it a lot in the scenario given... but you can't just say barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, it's simply not true. how do you think barrel length effects it? The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity, the more spin is imparted for stabilization of the bullet. Granted... there becomes a point of diminishing return... but if you don't believe me, shoot a snub-nose .357, then shoot a .357 with a 6" barrel and then tell me which one is more accurate. Does the difference between a 16" barrel and a 20" barrel on an AR-15 make any difference? Probably not a noticeable one, but if you were to compare say a 10" SBR to a 20" barrel on an AR... I'd be willing to bet the 20" barrel would blow it away. Your analogy of the revolver is a function of sight radius, not barrel length. The shorter barrels will have less harmonics/vibration/flex and therefore be more consistent shot-to-shot. I can't find it at the moment, but the Pittsburgh police or SWAT did a test of 11.5" vs 20" barrels accuracy and found the 11.5" to be more accurate. Barrel materials, brand, rest of the rifle all stayed consistent. Molon has done some similar testing. I would like to add, that in practical application obviously the faster the bullet is moving - the more resistant to wind it will be. This technically doesn't affect accuracy as you just need to adjust your windage, however if you can't perfectly call the wind (which no one can) then the longer barrel will be more forgiving. On this subject, you get into the debate of diminishing returns.. some say 16", some say 20", some say even longer.. it all depends on the application and the user. |
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Wouldn't a longer barrel increase the sight radius, and thus also improve accuracy? (not an officianado, just wondered If you are using iron sights (you mentioned optics however), it will make it easier to line them up perfectly.. thus, increasing practical accuracy. But this is a function of the shooter's accuracy not the gun's inherent accuracy. Put the gun in a rest to eliminate the shooter variable, or mount an optic and you won't notice the difference since their is no "sight radius" on an optic. |
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Wouldn't a longer barrel increase the sight radius, and thus also improve accuracy? (not an officianado, just wondered assuming you are using a fixed FSB on both rifles... you will have a longer sight radius on the longer barrel... but you can use a longer rail to put say a front sight on a 15" rail on a 16" barrel... that would be a longer sight radius than a FSB on a 20" |
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longer sight radius helps the shooter. It gives less of an angle of error. For lack of better term. Sight radius doesn't make the rifle more accurate.
I have read several recent articals, which you can google, that theorize that shorter heavy barrels are more accurate than longer thinner barrels. Due to harmonics. Since all of the powder is burnt, you dont need the extra barrel for velocity. Friction starts slowing it down. I would stick with 16" to 18" medium to heavy contour for an optimal build. I know i am speaking in gernalities, sorry, the search function will help. This has been covered several times. |
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While I normally stay out of the arguements, I would have to say that the shorter the barrel the greater the accuracy is NORMALLY not the case. there are instances, and the more you read the more informed you will become. However, not everything posted on the internet is TRUE. For generally principle, the more a bullet stays in the barrel getting the rifling twist, the more accurate the weapon. If this was not the case, then sniper rifles would be 11.5" and assault rifles would be 20".
Actually, this has overgrown to a post that I think only 1 or 2 actually answered the OPs questions. You say tactical shooting? What do you mean by that? Keep in mind that a .223 75 grain has only 500 ft pds of knock down power at 500 yards. It's losing about 100 ft pds per 100 yards at this distance, so 600 yards is roughly 400, 700 is roughly 300...There is a point that this is ineffective. I wouldn't stand in front of a bullet at this speed, but for large animals...there is a tradeoff. I do agree about the versatile nature of the AR...Superb weapon...Even kid friendly to a point...Low recoil, and the collapsable stock is beautiful for them. Heck, I was shooting bolt action large bore weapons at the age of 10. 1. Upper and Lowers. There are a lot of opinions on this site about this. I would recommend spending the money else where. A billet lower and upper is more show than anything else....In my opinion. Also, there are some fitting issues for many parts that "should" fit on the AR, and it won't fit on, around, or near a billet frame. For general principle, the lower and upper mainly hold the barrel and stock on. There are only about 4 manufacturers of "forged" lowers. There is a good post on this site about this. 2. Check on the SS barrel, because I don't think you need it chromed. It's pretty hard stuff to begin with. The regular carbon steel barrels are SOFT, and they need the chromed lining to shoot various rounds (chinese and russian steel "brass" rounds). 20" sounds perfect for what you are describing, and Krieger should do nicely from what I have heard of them. 3. Read this once...You want PREBAN. The post ban has wierd barrel attachments and suppressor mountings. Just buy the preban. As far as what to buy for an upper kit. This is the most influence on accuracy for the AR...The upper assembly. A matched bolt and barrel would be extremely nice. Depends on what you have to spend. Just don't be surprised to put $500-800 for an upper assembly for an accurate weapon shooting beyond 300 yards. 4. Never ask a question like this in a forum. You will get 8,000 opinions and no useful information. The best thing to do would be read 20-30 pages back from the first page and take most with a grain of salt. This will also tell you who to listen to and not listen to in this forum. Google .223 ballistics charts, but Hornady has a pretty descent for up to 500 yards. There is also some guy by the name of Steve Alderman...Seek out his writings since he builds accurate ARs and used to be an Army sniper. He has a little experience on this. He is actaully nice enough to respond via e-mail....He can provide a TON of insight. |
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While I normally stay out of the arguements, I would have to say that the shorter the barrel the greater the accuracy is NORMALLY not the case. there are instances, and the more you read the more informed you will become. However, not everything posted on the internet is TRUE. For generally principle, the more a bullet stays in the barrel getting the rifling twist, the more accurate the weapon. If this was not the case, then sniper rifles would be 11.5" and assault rifles would be 20". Actually, this has overgrown to a post that I think only 1 or 2 actually answered the OPs questions. You say tactical shooting? What do you mean by that? Keep in mind that a .223 75 grain has only 500 ft pds of knock down power at 500 yards. It's losing about 100 ft pds per 100 yards at this distance, so 600 yards is roughly 400, 700 is roughly 300...There is a point that this is ineffective. I wouldn't stand in front of a bullet at this speed, but for large animals...there is a tradeoff. I do agree about the versatile nature of the AR...Superb weapon...Even kid friendly to a point...Low recoil, and the collapsable stock is beautiful for them. Heck, I was shooting bolt action large bore weapons at the age of 10. 1. Upper and Lowers. There are a lot of opinions on this site about this. I would recommend spending the money else where. A billet lower and upper is more show than anything else....In my opinion. Also, there are some fitting issues for many parts that "should" fit on the AR, and it won't fit on, around, or near a billet frame. For general principle, the lower and upper mainly hold the barrel and stock on. There are only about 4 manufacturers of "forged" lowers. There is a good post on this site about this. 2. Check on the SS barrel, because I don't think you need it chromed. It's pretty hard stuff to begin with. The regular carbon steel barrels are SOFT, and they need the chromed lining to shoot various rounds (chinese and russian steel "brass" rounds). 20" sounds perfect for what you are describing, and Krieger should do nicely from what I have heard of them. 3. Read this once...You want PREBAN. The post ban has wierd barrel attachments and suppressor mountings. Just buy the preban. As far as what to buy for an upper kit. This is the most influence on accuracy for the AR...The upper assembly. A matched bolt and barrel would be extremely nice. Depends on what you have to spend. Just don't be surprised to put $500-800 for an upper assembly for an accurate weapon shooting beyond 300 yards. 4. Never ask a question like this in a forum. You will get 8,000 opinions and no useful information. The best thing to do would be read 20-30 pages back from the first page and take most with a grain of salt. This will also tell you who to listen to and not listen to in this forum. Google .223 ballistics charts, but Hornady has a pretty descent for up to 500 yards. There is also some guy by the name of Steve Alderman...Seek out his writings since he builds accurate ARs and used to be an Army sniper. He has a little experience on this. He is actaully nice enough to respond via e-mail....He can provide a TON of insight. Snipers are moving to shorter barrels - down from 24-26" to 18-20". Remember the Remington Police/PSS or whatever the designation or the M24? The SASS is down to 20" and that's a .308 WIN semi-auto. There becomes a sweet spot where the barrel length is long enough to burn all powder creating maximal pressure behind the bullet to reach max velocity, the twist rate being the right speed for the bullet weight as well as the barrel being long enough to put enough spin on the bullet to stabilize it sufficiently with said twist rate. Also, barrel harmonics, bullet ballistic coefficient, crown, trigger weight pull, and barrel heat all become variables with precision shooting not to mention wind, elevation, temperature, humidity, blah blah blah. It's all pretty amazing to see a hit on a man size target at long distances. Anyway, back to the OP, now knowing you plan on shooting 400-600yds accurately. You better be ready to spend a pretty penny on the upper and good optics and mounts for them. I am guessing you have access to shoot this far too. Those distances are hard to come by to shoot regularly. 1. Yup, I would go forged. Find a rollmark you like and go with it. I would buy an assembled upper. Doesn't matter if it's billet or forged, should still fit if it's in spec. 2. SS would be your most accurate choice especially with those credentials. 3. Don't worry about those designations as much as what you are looking for that you mention below your first line. 4. Might I suggest a LaRue Stealth. Not sure what your Krieger barrel and all that will run you once you get it done. I have a LaRue's Stealth and it is amazing. 20" with 12.5" quad rail and it is as accurate as I can shoot. At 320yds I can hit 1sqft target with M193 federal ammo all day using Matech and GG&G flip up front sight BUIS all day from whatever rest. I had the large coffee cans set out at a distance I could only see a shiny spec and was able to hit them just as easy as long as I could see them. Need to look back and remember what the exact distance was. Thought it was about 400yd. |
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I want to build a 20" AR-15 for Tactical Shooting. This will be the first rifle I have ever owned, and my only familiarity with the AR-15/M-16 is my prior use of the M-16 in Vietnam back in the 1970's. I decided to go with an AR-15 because it is such a versatile platform and there are soooo many sources for gadgets and add-ons - but now I am finding that the wide variety of options has me somewhat bewildered, so I could use some help: 1. Upper and Lower Receivers are available from tons of suppliers, but some offer receivers manufactured from "Billets" versus "Forgings". Could I expect longer life or more accuracy if I go with receivers machined from "Billets"? Do you have a preferred manufacturer or one you would stay away from? (DPMS, JP Enterprises, Mega, CMT, LMT, LAR, Palmetto State????) No difference... at all. except billet costs more. there MIGHT be some differences...like an integrated trigger guard, rather than the typical roll pin/screw...there might be something to be said about strength in that regard, some billet lowers have some cool features already milled in...as far as different brands, resale value plays into this...ie MEGA, LMT SPIKES DD BCM will prob hold value moreso than DPMS SAA PSA etc 2. I am planning on using a 20" Match Grade, 1:8 twist, Button Cut, Stainless Steel Krieger barrel. I decided on SS because I was told that none of the manfacturers can apply a truly uniform chrome coating along the entire length of the barrel and that this lack of uniformity can effect your accuracy. (Is that true?) true to an extent. you'll be hard pressed to find a better barrel than a kreiger.. and comparing a chrome lined barrel to a krieger is a joke. 3. I keep seeing upper kits advertised as A1, A2, A3, A4, M4, "preban", "postban", etc. All of this has me really confused. I want: - a flat top rail, so I can mount optical sightsget an A4 - a float tube so my barrel is isolated from the bi-pod or sling and all external forces with nothing to effect barrel harmonics. my recommendation is the troy TRX, it's light, modular, easily removable, and free floats the barrel - a real removable flash/noise suppressor. as long as you don't pin it(there would be no reason to this on a 20"), most are easily removable with a 3/4" wrench - Which kit "model" am I looking for? 4. Does anyone out there have any particular recommendations??? what is your budget? be detailed... optics included? upper or complete rifle? I'm a smartgunner/daniel defense fan, but you can't get a 20" barrel from them Thanks for any advice |
| Hey Gang - I really appreciate everyone's input, and your willingness to let an amateur like me ask sometimes stupid questions that could have been answered by just a bit more research. The problem with researching all the old articles is that you end up with numerous opinions on any subject, with no clear idea of whose opinion you should rely upon. Thanks again for all your input. |
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I would like to suggest Apex CNC Machining Company for a handguard. I bought one a few months ago, and honestly it is the best handguard that I have ever used (have used: LaRue, DD, Troy, YHM, PRI, JP VTAC)
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I would like to suggest Apex CNC Machining Company for a handguard. I bought one a few months ago, and honestly it is the best handguard that I have ever used (have used: LaRue, DD, Troy, YHM, PRI, JP VTAC) Those are cool! |
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