AR Sponsor
Posted: 10/28/2010 3:05:24 PM EDT
|
lt's a recce upper on an LMT lower and I finally got a chance to shoot it. It's got a 16" WOA SS 1:7 middy barrel I purchased from a well known company about 4 years ago. Honestly I never even mounted it until recently. Tge upper receiver and GB are LaRue, the Rail is a Troy TRX, Leupold MRT and the muzzle break is SF.
I was using M193 and M855 and the best groups (10 shot) were 2.5" to 3" at 100 yds  . I need to try some 69/75/77 gr stuff but honestly, I need a recce that shoots 193/855 well. What barrels are you guys using and what results with 193/855?
|
|
Bomber,
I think your asking alot for M193 and M855 ammo to shoot under what your already shooting which is 2.5 to 3.0 MOA. @100 yrds. You know more than me, but I've seen the ammo moderator Zhukov say that is what you can expect from the ammo you listed. I have a 14.5" 1/7 twist well known upper, and that's what I'm shooting consistently. 1098cya |
| The best I ever got was a 2.5" 10 shot group with the ammo you listed and that was out a Noveske 18" SPR..The same rifle also shoots around MOA consistantly and has shot sub-MOA on a few occasions when I do my part. Ammo plays a huge role in the accuracy department and I think your expectations of M193/M855 may be a little high in regards to accuracy. 2-3" is what I expect from those two rounds and i'm sure if you try some match ammo, you'll appreciate your build a whole lot more.. |
|
Quoted:
Here is my groups using a 18" SS WOA barrel, this was before I freefloated it. I only did 3 shot groups, this has seemed to work well for me, sorry its not the "Arfcom 10shot" way. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range002.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range001.jpg The Federal was really 75 gr . I miss labeled my target. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range003.jpg Hornady sierra BTHP So, id say you were doing good with the Mil spec stuff. My optic was Millet DMS-1 1-4power scope off sandbags. Those groups are way better than mine with .mil stuff. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here is my groups using a 18" SS WOA barrel, this was before I freefloated it. I only did 3 shot groups, this has seemed to work well for me, sorry its not the "Arfcom 10shot" way. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range002.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range001.jpg The Federal was really 75 gr . I miss labeled my target. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b262/die-tryin/Range003.jpg Hornady sierra BTHP So, id say you were doing good with the Mil spec stuff. My optic was Millet DMS-1 1-4power scope off sandbags. Those groups are way better than mine with .mil stuff. They are 3 shot groups. I've managed 3 shot .6 moa groups with 193 out of my BCM 14.5 middy. 10 shots showed what it could really do, and it sure as hell wasn't .6 moa. 2.5-3 inches with mil spec ammo is COMPLETELY NORMAL. Run some black hills 68,69,75 or 77 through it and I bet you get much closer to 1-1.5moa at the worst. |
|
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND.  6 moa is ridiculous... Might as well buy an AK and shoot wolf. Thanks for the Info MSTN and others.
|
|
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. AHHHH I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT! Really though? Mine seems to be alright, maybe it was just a bad run? OP, you got expected accuracy out of the surplus ammo. Not bad, not great, and I certainly wouldn't stand downrange of you/that rifle. Nice stick! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. AHHHH I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT! Really though? Mine seems to be alright, maybe it was just a bad run? OP, you got expected accuracy out of the surplus ammo. Not bad, not great, and I certainly wouldn't stand downrange of you/that rifle. Nice stick! his keyboard is broke, cap lock stuck on |
|
Quoted:
I was using M193 and M855 and the best groups (10 shot) were 2.5" to 3" at 100 yds i have highlighted your problem in blue. Quoted:
I need a recce that shoots 193/855 well. you already have one. if you want 1MOA out of M193/M855, you should be asking for a miracle. aside M855, as you know, has a steel penetrator embedded near the tip of the lead projectile. if this penetrator is just 0.001" off center from the geometric axis of the bullet, the epicyclic swerve of the fired bullet becomes much more pronounced, and as a result absolute accuracy (and moreover precision from shot to shot) suffers greatly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was using M193 and M855 and the best groups (10 shot) were 2.5" to 3" at 100 yds i have highlighted your problem in blue. Quoted:
I need a recce that shoots 193/855 well. you already have one. if you want 1MOA out of M193/M855, you should be asking for a miracle. This is almost EXACTLY what I was preparing to type. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. AHHHH I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT! Really though? Mine seems to be alright, maybe it was just a bad run? OP, you got expected accuracy out of the surplus ammo. Not bad, not great, and I certainly wouldn't stand downrange of you/that rifle. Nice stick! You really must be new..... Two hints. 1- Wes types in caps 2- Theres nothing you can do about it |
|
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. If I can get 6 MOA with my LC M855 I would be happy I bought 2 cans of the stuff came with bandoliers that were black out I think I will just buy BH blue for now on |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. AHHHH I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT! Really though? Mine seems to be alright, maybe it was just a bad run? OP, you got expected accuracy out of the surplus ammo. Not bad, not great, and I certainly wouldn't stand downrange of you/that rifle. Nice stick! You really must be new..... Two hints. 1- Wes types in caps 2- Theres nothing you can do about it Wes has type in caps since I can remember |
|
Quoted:
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS A DISEASE. THE CAPS STAY ON. 
To the OP - gotta use match grade ammo to get match grade results. ~3 moa for M193/M855 isn't too shabby. If you want better results from a 55gr fmj, you'll have to find some ammo loaded with Hornady 55gr FMJ. |
|
Like everyone else has said, that's about normal.
I've gotten a consistent 3moa from 50yds out to 300yds with different mfg M193. I've shot some sub 2moa groups with Prvi M855 out of my Denny's/GTS Operator barreled Recce. Prvi M855 is my favorite for accurate plinking, YMMV. Out of the same rifle I've shot barely sub moa groups with Prvi 75gr. I've still gotta try some Hornady and BH, if I can ever find it locally. |
|
Quoted:
I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. I have a brand new BCM 16 m4 carbine, first time out i was getting 3-4" groups at 30 yards from a bench, eotech with FED xm193. The trigger sucks but thats still awful..  Im not a new shooter, just new to ar15's.
I haven't been able to go back and try some new ammo yet, but im hoping for much better results. |
|
Quoted:
1-4 moa @ 100yrds between each other would still register as head shots, seeing that you're aiming "center of brain", good for mil ammos. You want better, build a bolt gun and up your scope power! :-) There are many steps in between the results the OP is getting with M193 ammo and building a bolt gun with a big scope. 
|
|
Quoted:
1-4 moa @ 100yrds between each other would still register as head shots, seeing that you're aiming "center of brain", good for mil ammos. You want better, build a bolt gun and up your scope power! :-) I have a bolt gun, a nice one at that and I think the 8.5x of the MRT is fine especially considering the glass is pretty good. |
|
Quoted:
Here is my groups using a 18" SS WOA barrel, this was before I freefloated it. I only did 3 shot groups, this has seemed to work well for me, sorry its not the "Arfcom 10shot" way. Apparently 3 shot groups dont mean anything, only 10shot groups prove accuracy
Its simply that 3 shot groups arent enough shots to be a thorough test. Its just too small of a sample to get meaningful information. |
|
It's completely true about 3 shot groups being useless. In the process of shooting 10 shot groups you'll see what your first 3, first 5, and finally, 10 rounds say to you about your zero and your rifle's accuracy. 3, 5, and 10 all usually say different things, and only the 10 shot group is truthful. Ammo makes or breaks accuracy. My rifle hates 75 gr Privi Partizan, both factory and hand loads. Who ever labelled 75 gr privi as "match grade" must have been joking... it's only slightly better than 55 gr FMJ-BT in my opinion. 77 gr SMK on the other hand, is amazing and deserves all the kudos it gets on the internet and elsewhere
|
|
Quoted:
lt's a recce upper on an LMT lower and I finally got a chance to shoot it. It's got a 16" WOA SS 1:7 middy barrel I purchased from a well known company about 4 years ago. Honestly I never even mounted it until recently. Tge upper receiver and GB are LaRue, the Rail is a Troy TRX, Leupold MRT and the muzzle break is SF. I was using M193 and M855 and the best groups (10 shot) were 2.5" to 3" at 100 yds . I need to try some 69/75/77 gr stuff but honestly, I need a recce that shoots 193/855 well. What barrels are you guys using and what results with 193/855?I dont think that ammo is capable of sub 2moa  Thats pretty damn tight for ball ammo.
get some match ammo using SMK from 55grains to 77grains and see what your groups are then. Then post you sub moa groups here. If you do your part, you should have a few of them. |
|
Quoted:
It's completely true about 3 shot groups being useless. In the process of shooting 10 shot groups you'll see what your first 3, first 5, and finally, 10 rounds say to you about your zero and your rifle's accuracy. 3, 5, and 10 all usually say different things, and only the 10 shot group is truthful. Ammo makes or breaks accuracy. My rifle hates 75 gr Privi Partizan, both factory and hand loads. Who ever labelled 75 gr privi as "match grade" must have been joking... it's only slightly better than 55 gr FMJ-BT in my opinion. 77 gr SMK on the other hand, is amazing and deserves all the kudos it gets on the internet and elsewhere Most people are confused about the term accuracy; the ability to shoot tight groups is consistency or precision; accuracy is in relation to the target, 1 MOA gun that is off its intended aim point is consistent but not accurate. |
|
Quoted: POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS A DISEASE. THE CAPS STAY ON. I've been registered here since 2003, and lurked before that. I remember you have always used all caps, I used to jokingly think you remove your caps lock key with a baseball bat to prevent accidentally disengaging it.  |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I HAVE PURCHASED BOTH XM193 AND M855 RECENTLY THAT WOULD NOT HOLD 6 MOA AT 100 YD. FEDERAL HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN PUTTING OUT SOME REAL CRAP IN RESPONSE TO THE SURGE IN DEMAND. I have a brand new BCM 16 m4 carbine, first time out i was getting 3-4" groups at 30 yards from a bench, eotech with FED xm193. The trigger sucks but thats still awful.. Im not a new shooter, just new to ar15's.I haven't been able to go back and try some new ammo yet, but im hoping for much better results. First time with a single stage AR-15 trigger, huh? They're not bad when you learn to shoot them. They aren't 1911 triggers, or nicely tuned Remington 700s but they're serviceable. You bought one of the highest quality carbines on the market, and I'm telling you it's either you or the ammo.  |
|
Quoted:
always funny to see people complain about accuracy when they shoot surplus or factory ammo Thats a little extreme. There is a lot of good factory ammo capable of sub-moa results. Clearly cooking up a load that's ideal for your gun will render the best results, but factory match ammo can produce impressive results. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
always funny to see people complain about accuracy when they shoot surplus or factory ammo Thats a little extreme. There is a lot of good factory ammo capable of sub-moa results. Clearly cooking up a load that's ideal for your gun will render the best results, but factory match ammo can produce impressive results. By factory i mean non match, i usually get 1.75-2.25 moa with the reg 55 gr stuff. |
| Depending on the range you will be shooting, heavier bullets do not always equate to better accuracy. I'm not a big bullet guy, so someone else would be far better qualified to say, but short of 300 or 400 yards, you could potentially see better results with lighter grain ammo (or heavier), at shorter ranges you just don't know. I have found it's always tough to know for sure what your barrel will like best until you try a variety of loads in a variety of weights. Once you start shooting past that, the heavier bullets seem to more consistently provide better results. |
|
Quoted:
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS A DISEASE. THE CAPS STAY ON. You go Wes!! Thaks for the 6MOA report I refuse to buy surplus M855/M193 for now I'd rather pay the price than shoot 6MOA groups 
BTW want to buy a Full CAN of LC M855 comes with bandoliers and strippers even has the metal wire US tag |
|
Quoted:
I've shot some pretty nice 5 shot groups with Prvi M855 using a 18" LW50 barrel. EDIT: A trigger is the LAST thing I consider when talking about accurracy. Its the shooter, not the trigger. http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/5448/93977552.jpg http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2716/moaa.jpg Back in 2005 I bought a case of Wolf M193 aka PP Its loaded with stick powder so its Clean also groups better than XM193/Q3131 in my lmt m4`s |
|
Quoted:
always funny to see people complain about accuracy when they shoot surplus or factory ammo Not my first dance. I shoot better groups with my 10.5" SBR than my highly regarded recce barrel with .MIL ammo. My main goal was to see what others were experiencing and hence the thread. I reload when I have time but frankly speaking, I shoot way to much for reloading to be viable. If you have something to add to the conversation then do it, if you don't you should check out the GD. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
always funny to see people complain about accuracy when they shoot surplus or factory ammo Not my first dance. I shoot better groups with my 10.5" SBR than my highly regarded recce barrel with .MIL ammo. My main goal was to see what others were experiencing and hence the thread. I reload when I have time but frankly speaking, I shoot way to much for reloading to be viable. If you have something to add to the conversation then do it, if you don't you should check out the GD. So what exactly is the "accuracy issue" with 2" groups with factory non match ammo? obviously you were expecting better than 2" 10 shot groups with that ammo, thats why you made the thread If you have seen any of MOLONs threads in regards to ammo, you would know 2" moa is pretty good for Non match ammo. ETA: Bottom line is if your were shooting some MK262 or what ever match ammo and getting and getting 2" I could see someone complaining about accuracy but 193 or 855 is not a good judge of how accurate a weapon is. |
AR Sponsor