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Posted: 2/10/2015 10:29:04 PM EDT
| Looking to remove a non pinned muzzle device and install a non A2 flash hider. What tools do I need? This is on an upper receiver, do not want to strip the barrel from the receiver. I've read about reaction rods, barrel vice or receiver vice. What is the best to use? |
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Any of the 3 tools you mentioned will hold the upper assembly while you work on it.
Depending on how tight the current device is one of them could damage the upper receiver (receiver vise ) and one of them could mar up the outside of the barrel ( barrel vise blocks). The reaction rod is the perfect tool for that job. What the rod does: 1. Holds the barrel for tightening/loosening the barrel nut and removing /installing a muzzle device. 2. Negates the need for clam shell upper vise blocks which transfer stress to the upper or barrel vise blocks which can mar the barrel. 3. Works with all shape/style uppers which clam shells do not. 4. Use doesn't require removal of the hand guard which barrel blocks sometimes do. 5. Holds an upper assembly in the horizontal or vertical position while allowing it to be spun 360 degrees for easy access to all parts. Don't spend $100 on the Geissele rod. Get the Botach version for $49.95 and free shipping. It is made in USA and is exactly like the Geissele. I have one. www.botach.com/products/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod.html |
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Quoted:
Looking to remove a non pinned muzzle device and install a non A2 flash hider. What tools do I need? This is on an upper receiver, do not want to strip the barrel from the receiver. I've read about reaction rods, barrel vice or receiver vice. What is the best to use? The reaction rod is the perfect tool for removing and installing muzzle devices. but, not for items marked in red below. Geissele has come out with an updated reaction rod that now supports the upper when tightening or loosening the barrel nut. Quoted:
Any of the 3 tools you mentioned will hold the upper assembly while you work on it. Depending on how tight the current device is one of them could damage the upper receiver (receiver vise ) and one of them could mar up the outside of the barrel ( barrel vise blocks). The reaction rod is the perfect tool for that job. What the rod does: 1. Holds the barrel for tightening/loosening the barrel nut and removing /installing a muzzle device. 2. Negates the need for clam shell upper vise blocks which transfer stress to the upper or barrel vise blocks which can mar the barrel. 3. Works with all shape/style uppers which clam shells do not. 4. Use doesn't require removal of the hand guard which barrel blocks sometimes do. 5. Holds an upper assembly in the horizontal or vertical position while allowing it to be spun 360 degrees for easy access to all parts. Don't spend $100 on the Geissele rod. Get the Botach version for $49.95 and free shipping. It is made in USA and is exactly like the Geissele. I have one. www.botach.com/products/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod.html |
| I would use barrel blocks for any muzzle device work. Reaction rods engage the barrel extension which is torqued onto the barrel which in turn had the muzzle device screwed onto it. The torque for a barrel extension is far greater than what should be used for a flash hider but why take the chance of screwing up what should be a permanent install of the barrel extension? Throw the barrel in a vise with blocks between the muzzle and front sight and avoid any risk. |
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The torque for a barrel extension is far greater than what should be used for a flash hider but why take the chance of screwing up what should be a permanent install of the barrel extension? If installing or removing a muzzle device loosens or tightens the barrel extension, then the barrel is defective and shouldn't be used anyway. |
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OP seemed fairly new to AR wrenching. A mistake removing a flash hider with lock-tite or rocksett used in the install could be expensive.
Agree that the barrel extension shouldn't come loose. Also scrap wood barrel blocks to pull off the flash hider are free if you don't want to have to buy anything. |
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The reaction rod is the perfect tool for removing and installing muzzle devices. but, not for items marked in red below. Geissele has come out with an updated reaction rod that now supports the upper when tightening or loosening the barrel nut. Quoted:
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Looking to remove a non pinned muzzle device and install a non A2 flash hider. What tools do I need? This is on an upper receiver, do not want to strip the barrel from the receiver. I've read about reaction rods, barrel vice or receiver vice. What is the best to use? The reaction rod is the perfect tool for removing and installing muzzle devices. but, not for items marked in red below. Geissele has come out with an updated reaction rod that now supports the upper when tightening or loosening the barrel nut. Quoted:
Any of the 3 tools you mentioned will hold the upper assembly while you work on it. Depending on how tight the current device is one of them could damage the upper receiver (receiver vise ) and one of them could mar up the outside of the barrel ( barrel vise blocks). The reaction rod is the perfect tool for that job. What the rod does: 1. Holds the barrel for tightening/loosening the barrel nut and removing /installing a muzzle device. 2. Negates the need for clam shell upper vise blocks which transfer stress to the upper or barrel vise blocks which can mar the barrel. 3. Works with all shape/style uppers which clam shells do not. 4. Use doesn't require removal of the hand guard which barrel blocks sometimes do. 5. Holds an upper assembly in the horizontal or vertical position while allowing it to be spun 360 degrees for easy access to all parts. Don't spend $100 on the Geissele rod. Get the Botach version for $49.95 and free shipping. It is made in USA and is exactly like the Geissele. I have one. www.botach.com/products/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod.html I beg to differ, the rod is made for number 1 and 2. See the description of the original tool taken directly from the Geissele web site: "The removal and installation of barrels, flash hiders, gas blocks and hand guards is made much easier and simpler. The Reaction Rod is designed to be gripped in a bench vise so that the rod is either horizontal or vertical. The upper receiver is then slid onto the rod and the rod’s integral splines enter the barrel extension and secure the barrel extension from turning. This allows all the torque from barrel nut wrenches to go directly into the barrel extension. In contrast, receiver vise blocks transmit the turning force into the aluminum receiver, a good part of which passes through the small, easily distorted receiver index pin. With the Geissele Reaction Rod, marring of an upper receiver’s finish by gripping and twisting inside vise blocks is eliminated and so is the need to remove sights and mounts from the receiver’s M1913 rail." Yes Geissele has come out with a new model, they say: The Super Reaction Rod was designed with the advanced armorer in mind, an armorer who frequently works on AR15/M4 platforms with over torqued, seized or Loctited barrel nuts. It is $175 But guess what, they still sell the original. Why? Because it works fine for 99% of jobs. If you have a truly frozen barrel nut a clam shell will not prevent damage and unless you have perfect fitting vise blocks for your barrel diameter it will rotate in them. The majority of hobby builders on here will not have any problems with the rod unless they are mechanically ignorant, i.e. if it doesn't come loose with normal force get a 3' cheater pipe instead of stopping to assess the situation perhaps adding heat etc. Maybe those types wouldn't do well with clam shell or barrel blocks either. I have all three types of tools but the rod is the only one that gets used anymore. I don't profess to know everything but the rod works for Sig Sauer, Geissele, Brownells and countless professional builders and me. 
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| Not trying to step on any toes, but a vise I already had, homemade hardwood barrel blocks from scrap, and some scrap leather have done everything this hobby builder had needed for a few builds, a barrel change, and other maintenance. The US Army armorers' documents show a barrel fixture. I've read some instances of sheared index pins and loosened barrel extensions with reaction rods. I have no experience with them, and the damage may well have been inevitable with any method. If the OP wants to spend the money and wait for the tool I'm sure he'll get the job done, I just don't think it's necessary or even definitively the best method. Strictly my opinion and experience. Good luck all. |
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Not trying to step on any toes, but a vise I already had, homemade hardwood barrel blocks from scrap, and some scrap leather have done everything this hobby builder had needed for a few builds, a barrel change, and other maintenance. The US Army armorers' documents show a barrel fixture. I've read some instances of sheared index pins and loosened barrel extensions with reaction rods. I have no experience with them, and the damage may well have been inevitable with any method. If the OP wants to spend the money and wait for the tool I'm sure he'll get the job done, I just don't think it's necessary or even definitively the best method. Strictly my opinion and experience. Good luck all. There is nothing wrong with your homemade hardwood barrel blocks and the OP could definitely give them a try. I have used them myself. They may not work on very tight nuts and muzzle devices but worth a try. Sometimes a lightly torqued muzzle device can be taken off by having someone hold the barrel in their hand while the wrench is smacked by a mallet. The barrel vise blocks used to be the tool of choice for many years until all the cool stuff was invented. Actually the Rod and barrel vise blocks may hold the barrel in different places but the stress on the index pin and receiver is exactly the same with either method. The rod is just handier since you don't have to worry about barrel diameters or removing hand guards fpr access like the blocks. I think negative reviews on reaction rods are like negative reviews on many other products and must be taken in context. People who use one and screw something up are pissed and will shout from the roof tops and go out of their way to do it. So we read the reviews and think there no way I'm buying that. But there are thousands that buy the product and it works great for them. Problem is they are not motivated to post reviews on something they are satisfied with like the unsatisfied are. So we don't see most of the good reviews. If I rejected everything I saw that had some bad reviews I would never buy anything. |
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You use what you want. my opinion, the reaction type rods put all the stress on the pin and the pin groove on the receiver. it may never happen to you and may not be considered all that common. but, it's taking an unnecessary risk in my opinion. there are all kinds of excuses blaming everything but the tool. and if I was a manufacturer. I would spin the reason for an upgraded tool also(see red text). as to not alienate all the customers that bought the old tool. I would definitely be comfortable using the super reaction rod. but, I'm happy with the BEV tool at $50 I hear what you are saying but note that they are still selling the original rod as is Midway and Brownells (plus one of their own design). I would hope concern for their customer service reputation would prompt them to remove a tool from their inventory if it was causing damage for anything more than a few folks. A similar tool is used to install barrels at the Sig Sauer factory and is included in their armorers kit and specified for service in the field. At any rate like you said, each to his own. |
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I hear what you are saying but note that they are still selling the original rod as is Midway and Brownells (plus one of their own design). I would hope concern for their customer service reputation would prompt them to remove a tool from their inventory if it was causing damage for anything more than a few folks. A similar tool is used to install barrels at the Sig Sauer factory and is included in their armorers kit and specified for service in the field. At any rate like you said, each to his own. Quoted:
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You use what you want. my opinion, the reaction type rods put all the stress on the pin and the pin groove on the receiver. it may never happen to you and may not be considered all that common. but, it's taking an unnecessary risk in my opinion. there are all kinds of excuses blaming everything but the tool. and if I was a manufacturer. I would spin the reason for an upgraded tool also(see red text). as to not alienate all the customers that bought the old tool. I would definitely be comfortable using the super reaction rod. but, I'm happy with the BEV tool at $50 I hear what you are saying but note that they are still selling the original rod as is Midway and Brownells (plus one of their own design). I would hope concern for their customer service reputation would prompt them to remove a tool from their inventory if it was causing damage for anything more than a few folks. A similar tool is used to install barrels at the Sig Sauer factory and is included in their armorers kit and specified for service in the field. At any rate like you said, each to his own. I'd really like this tool for assembling uppers. Attached File Attached File 
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I would use barrel blocks for any muzzle device work. Reaction rods engage the barrel extension which is torqued onto the barrel which in turn had the muzzle device screwed onto it. The torque for a barrel extension is far greater than what should be used for a flash hider but why take the chance of screwing up what should be a permanent install of the barrel extension? Throw the barrel in a vise with blocks between the muzzle and front sight and avoid any risk. BTW, I do not tighten my flash hiders any more than necessary to keep them from coming loose. That way I can take them off to clean the muzzle crown every several hundred rounds. If I want to change the angular orientation of the installed device so the prongs are pointing a certain way, I simply sand off a small amount of metal from the bottom of the crush washer. My only brake is a Miceluk model that uses a jam nut, which make clocking a snap. - CW |
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Don't spend $100 on the Geissele rod. Get the Botach version for $49.95 and free shipping. It is made in USA and is exactly like the Geissele. I have one. www.botach.com/products/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod.html I have the Botach version and one thing I have noticed is the splines are cut a little wide to fit in some barrel extensions. They were not $400 barrels being used so I guess you could blame the barrel instead but I would say about 1 in 4 would not fit the rod. I would suppose you could simply file down the splines on the tool to fit all but I would rather just use a clamshell or blocks in those instances and keep the tolerances tight on the rest of the barrels. |
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The best (cheap and homemade) way to secure your AR rifle while installing or removing a muzzle device is to clamp the exposed portion of the barrel between the handguard and the muzzle. That won't work when the handguard doesn't leave any portion of the barrel exposed. |
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Fan.
I like that tool also. The upper is protected and it even has a gas tube for alignment. I saw it on a video tour of either the Bushmaster or Windham factory? They were asked if they would make and sell them but they declined. The only downside to that design and the BEV is that the upper can't be rotated while on it preventing use as a handy upper assembly work fixture. |
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I have the Botach version and one thing I have noticed is the splines are cut a little wide to fit in some barrel extensions. They were not $400 barrels being used so I guess you could blame the barrel instead but I would say about 1 in 4 would not fit the rod. I would suppose you could simply file down the splines on the tool to fit all but I would rather just use a clamshell or blocks in those instances and keep the tolerances tight on the rest of the barrels. Quoted:
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Don't spend $100 on the Geissele rod. Get the Botach version for $49.95 and free shipping. It is made in USA and is exactly like the Geissele. I have one. www.botach.com/products/kley-zion-armors-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod.html I have the Botach version and one thing I have noticed is the splines are cut a little wide to fit in some barrel extensions. They were not $400 barrels being used so I guess you could blame the barrel instead but I would say about 1 in 4 would not fit the rod. I would suppose you could simply file down the splines on the tool to fit all but I would rather just use a clamshell or blocks in those instances and keep the tolerances tight on the rest of the barrels. Wow I haven't run into that problem yet on any of the 10 barrels I have used it on. It might not hurt to file it down a little. On one of the barrels I had to gently tap the tool in and on several of the barrels the tool was a slightly loose fit but it didn't affect the use. The others went in with hand pressure and no play. Guess that shows there is a wide range of extension tolerances. |
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