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Posted: 9/28/2009 10:10:48 AM EDT
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I am currently using a 1X-4X Millet DM scope for my ar mounted with a Burris PEPR. The reticle is a donut dot with a circle and 1/4 (?) MOA dot in the center.
The rifle is fully capable of 1/4 MOA and is guaranteed as well as factory tested and proven. I have done no work to it other than adding the scope since it came from the factory. For the last two trips to the range I have used Remington Match and Varmint ammo (believe 68 and 55 grain HPBT but not sure, been thinking about this for a couple of weeks now). I am no crack shot but when I get going I can generally get a group of five (yes, I know 10 shot groups are the norm but Match is expensive for me) down to slightly over 1 MOA at 100 yards with 2-3 rounds touching. Question is, with the 4X scope and reticle described above is that prolly the tightest I can get with it?? I am confident of my shot placement when I squeeze the trigger but I wonder if the low power is causing trouble with me making sure I am in the exact same spot. I appreciate any help or insight offered. ETA: As for why I have a 1X-4X scope on a precision build: it is my first and, currently, only AR. I didn't have anything else comparable for HD and didn't want to have to have it almost totally worthless with a heavy highpower scope while I get another AR or add backup sights (which is what I am considering doing with the PEPR mount). |
| I have the same scope(Millet DMS-1) in a Larue LT-104 mount and love it! but did just replace it with a Trijicon 3x9x40 with green BAC reticle (wish I would have got mill-dot) in another LT-104 mount for more precise work at greater distance, I plan on putting the Millet on my 6920 as it's more of a HD gun and doesn't get shot that often. |
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Quoted:
The size of the groups depends a lot more on YOU than the scope. More magnification helps a little but you should be able to get smaller groups with that scope. What kind of rifle guarantees .25 MOA? I assembled the lower assembly myself and purchased a LBC Ultimate .233 upper. It is a 16 inch SS medium heavy barrel with 1/9" twist. When I received the completed rifle (after lower was fitted) it came with a target showing 1/4" groups @ 100 yards using SMK 168 grain match. But yes, that was exactly what I was wondering if it is still me or if I had stretched out my scope. Guess I'll keep working at it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The size of the groups depends a lot more on YOU than the scope. More magnification helps a little but you should be able to get smaller groups with that scope. What kind of rifle guarantees .25 MOA? I assembled the lower assembly myself and purchased a LBC Ultimate .233 upper. It is a 16 inch SS medium heavy barrel with 1/9" twist. When I received the completed rifle (after lower was fitted) it came with a target showing 1/4" groups @ 100 yards using SMK 168 grain match. But yes, that was exactly what I was wondering if it is still me or if I had stretched out my scope. Guess I'll keep working at it. wat |
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I'm not sure about others but I find higher power scopes much easier to get smaller groups. At 4 power the bull at 100 yards is typically covered by the crosshairs so it's hard to find an exact center with every shot. And as much as I hate to say I'd be wary of 1/4 MOA using factory ammo. Not saying it can't happen but you typically only see the best accuracy with handloads tailored to a specific gun.
Oh and as others mentioned you might wanna rethink the 168 gr MK ammo used. Maybe you meant 68 gr.(or 69) |
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Sorry. Meant to say 68 grain Sierra Match King. Or 69. My mistake. I will check tonight and confrim. Apologies.
Meant to say 69 grain Federal. Absolutely no idea in hell where I got any of the above regarding what was used at the factory. Edited multiple times to reflect ignorance of OP. If anybody cares or wishes to clarify here is a link to my build pic thread with target from mfr. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=448392 |
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"Les Baer Ultimate .223 complete upper (16inch, 1:9, medium heavy free floated, chrome BCG with match bolt, and quad rail handguard). I know there is much controversy abut Les Baer but I found the price for the complete upper to be somewhat reasonable compared to top tier mfrs. Hell, was going to build the entire upper myself but the LB was only around $75 more and comes with a lifetime 1/2 MOA guarantee."
this is the qoute from your other post. just to clarify les baer claims 1/2" MOA. not the 1/4" MOA you said in the begining of this post. HUGE DIFFERENCE. 1x4 power scope will be tough but possible. i get some of my best groups out of my 22-250( half inch or less consistently ) using a vx3 leupold 2.5x8. possible but very difficult to achieve in my opinion. higher power doesn't always mean tighter groups. practice is your best friend. |
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You figure 4X at 100 yards is like 1X at 25 yards.
You should get marginally better accuracy with a higher powered optic with finer cross-hair reticle, but we are talking vanity levels only. Where you will see the difference is over 100 yards. I mean seriously, what is a .75MOA group at 100 yards compared to 1MOA group at the same distance? I'll tell you what, it's bragging rights only, I don't sweat the small stuff. |
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For what it's worth, the Millett DMS-1 scope has a 1 MOA center dot (NOT 1/4 MOA).
What that translates to is that the dot itself will appear to the eye to cover a one-inch circle on the target at 100 yards. And btw I agree that it's tough to get those magic 1 MOA groups with a 1-4x scope (I also have a Millett DMS-1). I've shot with a 3-10x Simmons 44 mag scope and found it far easier to place the shots where I want them. After all, with it I can see WHERE on the bullseye I'm trying to place my shots, as opposed to having the bullseye covered by the center dot of the DMS-1. . . |
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Thanks for all the replies.
As I had said, I have mulled this question over for several weeks and it has been longer since I completed the build. Clearly I need to go back and review my figures. As to if it is a 1/2 MOA guarantee or a 1/4, and factor in the 1MOA mreticle. I guess when I have just ran it through my head over time I changed the figures. If it is 1/2 MOA and with the larger 1MOA dot then I could see my groups turning out as they did. Please remember I was getting slightly over 1 MOA at the best (1-2 times after several previous groups that were much larger). I concur that I do need practice. This is my first foray back into firearms in over 10 years. I was once capable of slightly smaller groups than I am shooting now (with a less accurate rifle) so I know I could do it at one time. Just working back there and didn't want to handicap myself along the way. I agree in the grand scheme of things that the expected shrinkage isn't that much. That is something else I need to stop worrying about. How big of a difference is a 1/4-1/2 MOA at 100 yards really? |
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