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Posted: 3/21/2015 9:55:40 PM EDT
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Hello all,
I am looking for some advice. I am planning on purchasing a new mid-range scope soon and I cannot seem to find the answer that I am looking for. The scopes I am looking at are Leupold VXR, SWFA SS, and Vortex in 4-12X. I somewhat understand the main differences between SFP and FFP. My question is if I zero a SFP at max zoom does that mean that the rest of range of zoom is unuseable and it only accurate at max zoom where I zeroed? Is it preferred to zero at a different zoom level? If I go with a FFP, can I zero at any zoom range and its all useable? I hope this makes sense. Thanks all |
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The main line of the reticle should be accurate at all may levels. If you are using a Bdc or mil dot the other lines will only be accurate at one specific mag level. So this is same for both types^ ? Is it really worth the extra money for a FFP? My range that I plan on shooting for this AR is between 100-600 yards. Possibly some coyote hunting but that would be closer and much more rare for me. |
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FFP means the reticle will change in size according to the magnification level. Meaning that you can zero at any magnification power and that you can rage at any power. The zero will be the same at any power. Usually more money
SFP the reticle size stays the same no matter the power, can only rage accurately at the max magnification power and zero will only be accurate at max magnification power. Costs less money usually. |
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So this is same for both types^ ? Is it really worth the extra money for a FFP? My range that I plan on shooting for this AR is between 100-600 yards. Possibly some coyote hunting but that would be closer and much more rare for me. Quoted:
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The main line of the reticle should be accurate at all may levels. If you are using a Bdc or mil dot the other lines will only be accurate at one specific mag level. So this is same for both types^ ? Is it really worth the extra money for a FFP? My range that I plan on shooting for this AR is between 100-600 yards. Possibly some coyote hunting but that would be closer and much more rare for me. No , it's not the same for both types....he was referring to SFP. And yes, it's worth the investment to get FFP To answer your original question My question is if I zero a SFP at max zoom does that mean that the rest of range of zoom is unuseable and it only accurate at max zoom where I zeroed? Is it preferred to zero at a different zoom level?
If I go with a FFP, can I zero at any zoom range and its all useable? It's not that a zero'd SFP is not usable at different magnifications...as the cross hairs will always represent your zero (at your zero distance) no matter the magnification...but the subtensions pf the reticle (the mil-dots or the BDC) will only be correct at the specific (usually highest) magnification. With a SFP you should zero at the suggested magnification where the rest of the reticle is going to be correct. Yes, with an FFP you can zero at any magnification, and the full reticle, including the subtensions, are correct at all magnifications. ETA: the FFP reticle changes sizes 1:1 as you change the magnification....so that the reticle is actually useful at all magnifications. The SFP reticle does not change size as you change mangification, and as such is typically only useable for miling at it's highest magnification. The FFP is faster and less hassle. For a better understanding, try wrapping your head around this: Let's say you have a zero'd MOA scope, and 1 MOA @ 100-yards equals 1-inch (approximately). In a FFP scope, no matter what magnification you 'zoom' the scope to, when looking at a 100-yard target, 1 moa in the reticle will always be equal to that 1-inch of target. In a SFP scope, 1 moa @ 1 yards will ONLY equal 1-inch at the highest magnification. When you 'zoom' out to a wider view, 1-moa on the reticle will no longer be consistent with 1-inch at 100-yards...making it much more difficult to range, and more importantly much more difficult to make accurate adjustments on your turret.......for example, if you're at the prescribed magnification and observe a 2-moa miss, you would adjust 2-moa to come onto your target. If you're using an SFP scope, and not at the highest magnification , and you observe a miss on your target by 2-moa through your reticle...you won't know how much to adjust your turret. With FFP, this goes away, and 2-moa always equals 2-moa, no matter the magnification or distance. Much easier to make adjustments..... The other thing you want to think about when buying a scope is MILS vs. MOA. Most shooters prefer to have their reticle type match their turrets, ie mil dot reticle / mil turrets, -or- moa reticle / moa turrets. Most, but not all, competitive shooters use mil dot scopes. Generally speaking mils (which are base10) are easier if you think in metric....and conversely moa (which is base.25) is easier if you think in inches. However, with practice, it's not hard to master either. I would suggest that if you regularly shoot with a more experienced shooter, you might want to consider using what they use, as it's easier to communicate if you are both speaking the same language without having to do math. Technically speaking, MOA is (slightly, though negligibly as the difference is beyond what most shooters are capable of holding) more accurate, but MILS is faster to dial in. There are MANY youtube videos on the subject or you can just google "MILS vs. MOA" for better explanations |
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I see the issue differently. Because FFP reticles appear to get thinner as magnification decreases, they tend to be difficult to use for hunting or against a dark background or in low light at lower power settings. Some of them try to compensate by creating special centers that are more visible at lower power. Many do not and are essentially unusable at low power under the circumstances I have described.
On the other hand, where accurate adjustment for extended range is needed, very high powered scopes (well above 10x), due to conditions such as mirage or flare from shooting into the sun, being able to dial back magnification and still know that the hold overs are accurate, is really important. In reality, scopes with midrange magnification, such as 3-9x, 2.5-10x and such rarely benefit from FFP, and it can be a huge liability for how these scopes are actually used. Such scopes typically are used for long distance holdovers only at their maximum magnification and at no other power setting. At maximum, the subtensions are accurate. Personally, I cannot recall ever trying to take a 500 yard shot with a 10x variable at any lower magnification. And the reticle remains thick enough at close range to be useful. But, with a high power variable, say the classic 6-24x50, a FFP reticle can be extremely useful. Those scopes are usually not used for close in shots. If using one at 24x at a 400 yard target, and encontering a lot of mirage betweem me and the target, I can pull magnification back to the point where mirage is controlled sufficiently that the image is clear enough to make the shot and know that my holdover point for that distance has not changed. My formula is this: If the scope tops out at 10x or under, I perfer SFP. It it is 14x or higher, I want FFP. There is a gray area in between that drives the decision. If the scope is for hunting and low light, I will still favor SFP. If it is for long range shooting, then it will be FFP. |
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I see the issue differently. Because FFP reticles appear to get thinner as magnification decreases, they tend to be difficult to use for hunting or against a dark bqckground or in low light atower power settings. Some of them try to compensate by creating special centers that are more visible at lower power. Many do not and are ezsentially unusable at low power under the circumstances I have described. On the other hand, where accurate adjustment for extended range is needed very high powered scopes (well above 10x), due to conditions such as mirage or flare from shooting into the sun, being able to dial back magnification and still know that the hold overs are accurate, is really important. In reality, scopes with midrange magnification, such as 3-9x, 2.5-10x and such rarely benefit from FFP, and it can be a huge liability for how these scopes are actually used. Such scopes typically are used for long distance holdovers only at their maximum magnification and at no other power setting. At maximum, the subtensions are accurate. Personally, I cannot recall ever trying to take a 500 yard shot with a 10x variable at any lower magnification. And the reticle remains thick enough at close range to be useful. But, with a high power variable, say the classic 6-24x50, a FFP reticle can be extremely useful. Those scopes are usually not used for close in shots. If using one at 24x at a 400 yard target, and encontering a lot of mirage betweem me and the target, I can pull magnification back to the point where mirage is controlled sufficiently that the image is ear enough to mame the shot and know that my holdover point for that distance has not changed. My formula is this: If the scope tops out at 10x or under, I perfer SFP. It it is 14x or higher, I want FFP. There is a gray area in between that drives the decision. If the scope is for hunting and low light, I will still favor SFP. If it is for long range shooting, then it will be FFP. This is also true |
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The hold over will only be meaningful if you're at the proper magnification for that SFP scope Quoted:
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So with a SFP scope if your zero is 100y and you shoot at say 20y with a hold over will this effect anything? The hold over will only be meaningful if you're at the proper magnification for that SFP scope I did a poor job of phrasing my question: If I have a 100y zero with a variable power scope and say I shoot at 14 power at 100y then run up to the 20 yard line and dial the power way down and holdover will I need to account for anything additional? |
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For an AR I prefer a SFP.
All the FFP scopes I've looked through were only useful for about the top 1/2 of the magnification range unless it was broad daylight and you had plenty of time to find the tiny reticle. I like low power variables (up to 6X) for 5.56, and a fixed power 10X for my 308 bolt gun. |
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My formula is this: If the scope tops out at 10x or under, I perfer SFP. It it is 14x or higher, I want FFP. There is a gray area in between that drives the decision. If the scope is for hunting and low light, I will still favor SFP. If it is for long range shooting, then it will be FFP. FFP is all the rage these days and many will recommend it no matter what even for 2.5x10 scopes where the reticle becomes hardly usable in the low mag range. I put a 3-9X mil/mil SFP scope on my AR and it works well for this role. Also, with SFP scopes, they still range accurately at other magnifications, ie. in my 3-9x: at 3x each mil hash is 3 mils, the half-mil marks become 1.5 mils. |
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I would HIGHLY suggest finding a FFP scope and looking through it. I was all ready to get a FFP in a NF 3.5-15x50. I found one locally and looked through it. I think it had the Horus tree or something similar for the reticle. I could barely see the reticle on 3.5X and had to get near 10X before the reticle became what I would consider useful.
In my experience, I find myself shooting either on the low end of the magnification or high end. It's weird but I rarely use the middle magnifications so the SFP reticle is not a big issue for me. I can see where it could be an advantage when getting into the 20X realm but for me, it was too big a disadvantage on the low end. Again, it comes down to what kind of shooting do you plan to do the most...? |
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With this information, I was thinking would a fixed scope be worthwhile? If I'm using a SFP like a Luepold VXR, I'm more than likely going to leave it at its max setting for shooting. I'm a huge fan of the Leupold M4 10X. Straight up most bomb-proof scope you can get. Military proven for almost 30 years and still goin' strong. After I discovered the pifalls of the FFP variables, I like my fixed 10X that much more. |
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With this information, I was thinking would a fixed scope be worthwhile? If I'm using a SFP like a Luepold VXR, I'm more than likely going to leave it at its max setting for shooting. I have that very scope, the VX-R 3-9x40mm Patrol. The reticle is extremely versatile. For range or target work, precision distance shooting, I use 9x. But, for hunting or tactical practice or drills at targets inside 300 yards, I usually turn it down to 3x to get a wider field of view. With the proper 50 yard zero you have point blank range out to 300, so you can just hold on and select the magnification to suit the field of view you need. The illuminated Firedot reticle provides a .3mil (about 1 MOA) precise aiming point at 9x, that remains the same relative size at all magnification, which means you can see it and the stadia clearly at all distances. It also is excellent in low light or against a dark target. I have fixed power scopes, but find the ones above 4x only suitable for long range or target use, and many such scopes do not have accurate, repeatable turrets or reticles designed to be used with the turrets. The 10x Leupold is a great scope, but the field of view is very restricted and, frankly, the low light performance of the VX-R scopes is better. You have only a 4mm exit pupil which means a very unforgiving eyebox. As a hunter I learned from an early age (I am 64), that keeping a scope turned down to its lowest power is usually the best, as it is most versatile there, with best field of view, best eye relief and widest eye box, and then crank it up for the long shots. |
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I did a poor job of phrasing my question: If I have a 100y zero with a variable power scope and say I shoot at 14 power at 100y then run up to the 20 yard line and dial the power way down and holdover will I need to account for anything additional? Yes, you're going to need to account for quite a bit. It's not really going to matter if you're at 100 yards or 20 yards. What matters is that your variable SFP scope is at the correct magnification for calculating your applicable holdover. Let's say your holdover at 100-yards is "0". At 20-yards distance to target, your holdover might be 1.8 mils for example. If you're not at the full magnification on the SFP reticle, you're going to have to calculate how many mils that 1.8 mil come up represents at whatever magnification you're at. |
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I did a poor job of phrasing my question: If I have a 100y zero with a variable power scope and say I shoot at 14 power at 100y then run up to the 20 yard line and dial the power way down and holdover will I need to account for anything additional? Quoted:
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So with a SFP scope if your zero is 100y and you shoot at say 20y with a hold over will this effect anything? The hold over will only be meaningful if you're at the proper magnification for that SFP scope I did a poor job of phrasing my question: If I have a 100y zero with a variable power scope and say I shoot at 14 power at 100y then run up to the 20 yard line and dial the power way down and holdover will I need to account for anything additional? I see the issue differently. If the question is adjusting turrets or changing reticle hold over point to shoot at 20 yards with a scope zeroed at 100 yards, why change anything, regardless of magnification? With either FFP or SFP and at any magnification setting, the change in point of impact from point of aim is only 1.8" with 55 grain M193 and most other ammo. Unless you really need to hit a dime size target at 20 yards, just hold dead on and shoot. You guys are making shooting under 300 yards too complicated. At 20 yards my concern would be that with the power turned down on a FFP I could not see the crosshairs. You will be low that close because the scope is up a bit over 2" higher than the bore of your rifle barrel. |
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I see the issue differently. If the question is adjusting turrets or changing reticle hold over point to shoot at 20 yards with a scope zeroed at 100 yards, why change anything, regardless of magnification? With either FFP or SFP and at any magnification setting, the change in point of impact from point of aim is only 1.8" with 55 grain M193 and most other ammo. Unless you really need to hit a dime size target at 20 yards, just hold dead on and shoot. You guys are making shooting under 300 yards too complicated. At 20 yards my concern would be that with the power turned down on a FFP I could not see the crosshairs. You will be low that close because the scope is up a bit over 2" higher than the bore of your rifle barrel. Quoted:
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So with a SFP scope if your zero is 100y and you shoot at say 20y with a hold over will this effect anything? The hold over will only be meaningful if you're at the proper magnification for that SFP scope I did a poor job of phrasing my question: If I have a 100y zero with a variable power scope and say I shoot at 14 power at 100y then run up to the 20 yard line and dial the power way down and holdover will I need to account for anything additional? I see the issue differently. If the question is adjusting turrets or changing reticle hold over point to shoot at 20 yards with a scope zeroed at 100 yards, why change anything, regardless of magnification? With either FFP or SFP and at any magnification setting, the change in point of impact from point of aim is only 1.8" with 55 grain M193 and most other ammo. Unless you really need to hit a dime size target at 20 yards, just hold dead on and shoot. You guys are making shooting under 300 yards too complicated. At 20 yards my concern would be that with the power turned down on a FFP I could not see the crosshairs. You will be low that close because the scope is up a bit over 2" higher than the bore of your rifle barrel. I hear what you're saying. But -- I guess it would depend on if you're hunting, or shooting competitively. 1.8" in hunting and your animal most likely still drops. In precision shooting, 1.8" is a big miss. |
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I hear what you're saying. But -- I guess it would depend on if you're hunting, or shooting competitively. 1.8" in hunting and your animal most likely still drops. In precision shooting, 1.8" is a big miss. Yes...but if the OP needed that level of precision at all ranges for competitive use, they wouldn't be here asking the question. Holding ~2" high at 20yds should be pretty easy w/o any mark on the reticle anyway. Even if the reticle is marked correctly for the magnification, there won't be a right marking for this type of situation. For under 10x SFP is the best option. |
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The question that needs to asked is: "Are you really going to be estimating range with your reticle? Really?".
Yes? Get one in mils/mils, or MOA/MOA. You will want to range at the highest magnification since ranging with a reticle is a crude, way of doing things. 2nd focal plane is the most versatile because it is more usable on the the lower 1/2 of the magnification range. No? Get either a BDC reticle or a Duplex reticle and use your range finder to lay out your area like it's 2015. |
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Yes...but if the OP needed that level of precision at all ranges for competitive use, they wouldn't be here asking the question. Holding ~2" high at 20yds should be pretty easy w/o any mark on the reticle anyway. Even if the reticle is marked correctly for the magnification, there won't be a right marking for this type of situation. For under 10x SFP is the best option. Quoted:
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I hear what you're saying. But -- I guess it would depend on if you're hunting, or shooting competitively. 1.8" in hunting and your animal most likely still drops. In precision shooting, 1.8" is a big miss. Yes...but if the OP needed that level of precision at all ranges for competitive use, they wouldn't be here asking the question. Holding ~2" high at 20yds should be pretty easy w/o any mark on the reticle anyway. Even if the reticle is marked correctly for the magnification, there won't be a right marking for this type of situation. For under 10x SFP is the best option. I think you're confusing OP with CharlieHorse... |
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