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Posted: 10/25/2015 9:58:32 PM EDT
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long story short I was told it is illegal to not mark a 80% built gun. Can someone shed some light on this? My understanding is that a firearm only has to be marked if it is intend for sale.
This thread is not for debate over whether a firearm should be marked in case of theft! Purely the legality of markings. |
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long story short I was told it is illegal to have an unmarked gun. Can someone shed some light on this? My understanding is that a firearm only has to be marked if it is intend for sale. This thread is not for debate over whether a firearm should be marked in case of theft! Purely the legality of markings. It is illegal to deface (destroy) a serial number on a firearm. |
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It is illegal to deface (destroy) a serial number on a firearm. Quoted:
Quoted:
long story short I was told it is illegal to not mark a 80% built gun. Can someone shed some light on this? My understanding is that a firearm only has to be marked if it is intend for sale. This thread is not for debate over whether a firearm should be marked in case of theft! Purely the legality of markings. It is illegal to deface (destroy) a serial number on a firearm. I'm sorry that was poorly worded. thank you for pointing that out. |
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Many lower priced .22s and shotguns made prior to the GCA68 did not have serial numbers. They are still legal to own, use and transfer.
But as said it is illegal to remove or destroy a serial number on any gun that has one no matter when it was made. But as the first post said you do not have to put one on an 80% lower, or any gun you built. It is recommend in case of theft and such but not required. |
| It is required to have a serial number on a firearm if it is to be "smithed" and you are not present. Gunsmith needs to log the firearm in and out of their possession through their log book. There are no specifics on what a serial number needs to be comprised of. |
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It is required to have a serial number on a firearm if it is to be "smithed" and you are not present. Gunsmith needs to log the firearm in and out of their possession through their log book. There are no specifics on what a serial number needs to be comprised of. So... if you have a gun without a serial number manufactured prior to 1968????? |
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So... if you have a gun without a serial number manufactured prior to 1968????? Quoted:
Quoted: It is required to have a serial number on a firearm if it is to be "smithed" and you are not present. Gunsmith needs to log the firearm in and out of their possession through their log book. There are no specifics on what a serial number needs to be comprised of. So... if you have a gun without a serial number manufactured prior to 1968????? Exactly. There's no serial number required. They log it into the books as No Serial Number. |
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It is required to have a serial number on a firearm if it is to be "smithed" and you are not present. Gunsmith needs to log the firearm in and out of their possession through their log book. There are no specifics on what a serial number needs to be comprised of. As pointed out - just flat out wrong. There are indeed specifics about what a serial number must be (latin alphabet and numerical characters only). FFLs (who aren't newbie retards or fudds) know how to log in firearms without serials, and guidance is provided in all the standard literature for doing so, since there are millions of them out there from pre-GCA68. Some FFLs will refuse to work on a gun without a serial, and some auto mechanics will refuse to work on a Ford/Chevy if it's not their preferred make. Big difference between preference and law. |
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Quoted: FFLs (who aren't newbie retards or fudds) know how to log in firearms without serials, and guidance is provided in all the standard literature for doing so, since there are millions of them out there from pre-GCA68. You'd think fudds would know all about logging in guns w/o S/Ns, as nearly all the guns out there w/o S/Ns are by definition fudd guns. 
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Looks like I got that wrong. Thanks for correcting me. My intentions were not to mislead. I read this information from what seemed like a credible source when I was building my first 80%.
I should have written something more understandable like: serial numbers do not have a standardized series of numbers and letters that must be used. Like a VIN on an automobile, where country of manufacture, vehicle make, year, etc are coded into the SN that is mostly standardized in the industry. I serialize all my 80% to personalize them. |
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Looks like I got that wrong. Thanks for correcting me. My intentions were not to mislead. I read this information from what seemed like a credible source when I was building my first 80%. Then, peace, brother. It's hard to know what we don't know, until after we know. |
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Exactly. There's no serial number required. They log it into the books as No Serial Number. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: It is required to have a serial number on a firearm if it is to be "smithed" and you are not present. Gunsmith needs to log the firearm in and out of their possession through their log book. There are no specifics on what a serial number needs to be comprised of. So... if you have a gun without a serial number manufactured prior to 1968????? Exactly. There's no serial number required. They log it into the books as No Serial Number. This right here. I have had a few 80% lowers cerakoted and the FFL just logs it in as "model AR15 stripped lower receiver no serial number". If an FFL doesn't want to bother with a no serial number firearm, that's his prerogative. But it is not illegal to leave a completed 80% sterile. |
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The way I understood it was that my 80% vanilla AR is mine forever. I "made" it. I can do anything I want to it (legally of course) except sell or transfer it "as is" without a s/n. If at some point in the future I wish to sell or transfer it, it has to go to a FFL and get serialized and put "in the system".
Correct? |
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Quoted: The way I understood it was that my 80% AR is mine forever. I "made" it. I can do anything I want to it (legally of course) except sell or transfer it "as is" without a s/n. If at some point in the future I wish to sell or transfer it, it has to go to a FFA and get serialized and put "in the system". Correct? Kinda, but not really. Doesn't need an S/N if you decide to sell it at some point. Sounds sketchy...selling a receiver w/o a serial number....But just don't make them with the intent to sell. Transferring it might be hard.. You won't transfer anything. The FFL who receives it will. They probably wouldn't accept an AR lower w/o a serial number. If it was FTF or in-state sale, then nothing is needed to be done. |
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Quoted: The way I understood it was that my 80% vanilla AR is mine forever. I "made" it. I can do anything I want to it (legally of course) except sell or transfer it "as is" without a s/n. If at some point in the future I wish to sell or transfer it, it has to go to a FFL and get serialized and put "in the system".
Correct? No need federally to transfer through an FFL, unless crossing state lines. Your state may have other laws. It is not entirely clear to me that it needs to have a S/N to transfer. |
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Kinda, but not really. Doesn't need an S/N if you decide to sell it at some point. Sounds sketchy...selling a receiver w/o a serial number....But just don't make them with the intent to sell. Transferring it might be hard.. You won't transfer anything. The FFL who receives it will. They probably wouldn't accept an AR lower w/o a serial number. If it was FTF or in-state sale, then nothing is needed to be done. Quoted:
Quoted:
The way I understood it was that my 80% AR is mine forever. I "made" it. I can do anything I want to it (legally of course) except sell or transfer it "as is" without a s/n. If at some point in the future I wish to sell or transfer it, it has to go to a FFA and get serialized and put "in the system". Correct? Kinda, but not really. Doesn't need an S/N if you decide to sell it at some point. Sounds sketchy...selling a receiver w/o a serial number....But just don't make them with the intent to sell. Transferring it might be hard.. You won't transfer anything. The FFL who receives it will. They probably wouldn't accept an AR lower w/o a serial number. If it was FTF or in-state sale, then nothing is needed to be done. Nooooo. NOT selling receivers... I am referring to my complete rifle, assembled with a 80% lower that I completed. The way it was explained and I understood was that "this rifle is mine... there are many like it... blahblah..." and as long as I retain it no s/n is required. If, however, I sell it or give the complete rifle to someone, the completed lower is the "firearm" and must be serialized in some manner and legally transferred. |
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Quoted: Nooooo. NOT selling receivers... I am referring to my complete rifle, assembled with a 80% lower that I completed. The way it was explained and I understood was that "this rifle is mine... there are many like it... blahblah..." and as long as I retain it no s/n is required. If, however, I sell it or give the complete rifle to someone, the completed lower is the "firearm" and must be serialized in some manner and legally transferred. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The way I understood it was that my 80% AR is mine forever. I "made" it. I can do anything I want to it (legally of course) except sell or transfer it "as is" without a s/n. If at some point in the future I wish to sell or transfer it, it has to go to a FFA and get serialized and put "in the system". Correct? Kinda, but not really. Doesn't need an S/N if you decide to sell it at some point. Sounds sketchy...selling a receiver w/o a serial number....But just don't make them with the intent to sell. Transferring it might be hard.. You won't transfer anything. The FFL who receives it will. They probably wouldn't accept an AR lower w/o a serial number. If it was FTF or in-state sale, then nothing is needed to be done. Nooooo. NOT selling receivers... I am referring to my complete rifle, assembled with a 80% lower that I completed. The way it was explained and I understood was that "this rifle is mine... there are many like it... blahblah..." and as long as I retain it no s/n is required. If, however, I sell it or give the complete rifle to someone, the completed lower is the "firearm" and must be serialized in some manner and legally transferred. Just like I said... Doesn't need an S/N if you decide to sell it at some point.
Sounds sketchy...selling a receiver w/o a serial number....But just don't make them with the intent to sell. Transferring it might be hard.. You won't transfer anything. The FFL who receives it will. They probably wouldn't accept an AR lower w/o a serial number. If it was FTF or in-state sale, then nothing is needed to be done. |
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The below info is for Federal law only - your State laws may be more restrictive than this.
You may make a firearm for yourself. You may make as many as you want for yourself. You may not make one for anyone else or with the intent to sell or give it away. If you decide you no longer want to keep a self-built firearm, you may sell, give away, bequeath, or otherwise transfer any firearm you build for yourself to anyone who may legally own that firearm in your State, as long as all state laws are complied with. No one may help you perform the actual physical work of building a firearm. You may use borrowed tools, but you must do all the work. You may get advice and instruction from someone, but they cannot perform any work. The "80% Receiver" description is a marketing tool only. No such designation exists in law or regulation. A block of metal or plastic is either a firearm or it is not. There is no legal status of "partial firearm". Current 80% lowers have the fire control pocket left solid. As soon as you begin removing metal or plastic from that area, your 80% becomes a firearm. Whether starting with a solid slab of metal or an 80% lower you must do all the work. All of it. No else one may perform any of the physical labor. Serial numbers were not required on firearms until 1968. Today, the serial number requirement applies ONLY to licensed manufacturers. There is no Federal requirement that you serialize or engrave makers information on any non-NFA self-built firearm. Ever. BATF suggests that you do so in case of theft, but it is not required. A licensed gunsmith may legally accept a non-serialized firearm for service, repair, refinishing, etc. If one won't that is a personal choice, not a matter of law. In the United States laws constrain, not permit, conduct. Federal law does not provide a list of what you CAN do. It limits your freedom by defining what is illegal. Anything which is not illegal is by definition legal. |
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Very nice summary.
I will add applying a finish, anodizing, cerakote or rattle can is NOT part of the manufacturing process. Therefore, you do NOT have to do that yourself. However, once you machine it into a firearm, all laws must then be followed by anyone applying said finish. Meaning if you leave it in their care while it is being finished, they must be an FFL. |
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