AR Sponsor
Posted: 7/17/2004 1:13:15 PM EDT
|
Does anyone know if any of the Industry Partners deal in Simunitions? My department is in need of some conversion kits for our AR's. Locating the kits isn't too hard but locating the 5.56 simunition rounds is proving to be difficult. Any input would be helpfull. Thanks, BuellRider |
|
Simunition does make a 5.56 round: www.simunition.com/pdf/fx5-56.pdf However, according to the Simunition web site it is currently available only to the military, and not even law enforcement can get it. As the others said, you will need to go with conversion kits that use the 9mm round: www.simunition.com/images/conversion.pdf |
| My department purchased 2 Simunition 16" A2 M4 carbine uppers. Each had a wait ove about 3 months. They both use their 9mm sized simunition rounds...same as their semi auto pistol conversions. We have had no problems with them. They did cost more than some real uppers though.... |
|
sorry folks but there is simunition made in both 9mm & .223 Rem/5.56 NATO.....!! i was slavaging brass on my range last Friday & found at least 100 fired rounds of .223/5.56 simunition & maybe 200 rnds of 9mm. there is no head stamp on them so i have no idea who makes them, they have an aluminum body & use what appears to be a .22 rf blank, the 9mm appear to have a large pistol primer in them. i could post a photo if someone can tell me how !! |
Agreed, I should have been more specific and commented that his sim uppers for LE work are going to run with 9mm chambers fire 8mm projectiles, and that the 5.56 ammo is made, but currently slotted only for military projects. Either way, what he is looking for is the standard sim round. It is understood that Simmunitions makes MANY different rounds that aren't ever brought up on this board, and aren't used in general training. |
Any more details on this stuff? I've been in simuntion training with pistols and other than the bulky safety gear it was very eye opening training. |
|
Try to remember that there are another 3 or 4 companies coming out with marking cartridges similar to Simmunitions. Expect to see prices coming down in the next year or so. The cartridges that can be fired with a standard barrel are nice, but remember how accidents happen. If you are LE, you understand what I mean. How many cops do you know that don't carry extra weapons or ammo? Murphys law comes up at the worst times, and I've been present when a live round has made its way into "inert" cartridges. |
|
When doing sim training we were patted down to insure there was no real weapons of any sort. We had to leave the leatherman, asp, pepper spray and all our mags, etc. Kinda irritated me at first but I can see why it's done. I'd hate to see someone hurt or killed because we didnt want to offend a deputy. I can imagine this would be especially important if using your duty weapons with sims. |
All that UTM requires is a paintball mask and long sleaves watch the vids here: www.cavalryarms.com/UTM/ |
|
The vids don't show a reason to use this over anything else. What is the cost over Sim ammo? Why isn't neck protection required? Is the velocity/ range that much less? The videos show people playing around, but there is no presentation or information about the product. I like you guys, and you have always been decent to me, so I don't say this in a bad way. Pull the vids until something more professional is available to market this item. If there is a website that has something else setup, and yours is just "for fun", I apologize and ignore the above. |
we're not selling the stuff....its from a product demo we attended. Having used both sims and the UTM, I prefer the UTM that's all I'm saying. Advantages: 1) It works in your existing upper receiver. So you train with the same optics and sights, no dedicated upper required. 2) It is significantly less painful than simunitions. I still have a scar from getting hit with a sim...while the UTM stings, it doesn't leave nearly as bad of marks. It can also be more safely used with less protective clothing at closer ranges. 3) Extremely little fouling of the action. The cartridges use a dual rimfire primer system, one to cycle the bolt one to propel the projectile. With the UTM bolt in place it cannot fire standard ammunition. 4) Range is 100 yards with a flatter trajectory than sims. Cost is about $0.50 per round, don't know how that compares to Sims. I don't know if UTM has a website up yet themselves. They do have a $90 million contract to supply DoD with their bolts and ammunition. |
|
Ok, that makes a lot more sense. It didn't seem like the way you guys would market something, I guess with it being on your site I jumped to conclusions, my bad. Any idea what the safety protocol is for the bolt, or how it stops live ammo from being fired? That is about the biggest selling point in the Sim system (layered safety). Any idea what the range is with it as opposed to the sims? I can't figure how distance is farther/ flatter trajectory if it is stinging. 100 yards is way past what a sim round will do. Lastly, 50cents is abot what sim rounds cost. They are up around the cost of duty ammo. I know what you mean regarding the Sims. I have several scars from using them. Part of the glamor of being an instructor is dying a glorious death for your students. Thanks for the input, and again, my bad, I should have known you guys would have something better if you were part of it! |
the bolts are marked blue, and they have a rimfire firing pin, they cannot fire regular live ammunition. The bolt is fixxed into the carrier, and it works essentially on blow back principles. You can also use the same magazines as your firearm normally uses, though UTM reccomends using seperate ones marked with different color tape.
The projectiles are lighter and shaped more or less like a bullet, so with the same muzzle velocity as a sim gun they go farther and fly straighter, but hurt less. The southwest rep for UTM goes by the name of AZ_Larry here on the forums, you might want to contact him for more information. |
|
The new Sim FX 5.56mm kits are essentially the same function as UTM - except about 2x the velocity... We used to do Body Armour optional for the 9mm sim kits, and 9/10 would leave it off, now... When we go sim - the live bolts are accounted for placed in the sim boxes. We still carry knives etc - Obviosuly I have the common sense (one would hope  ) not to stab the OPFOR... |
SIMUNITION does have a projectile. SIMUNITION is actually the company name. They produce 5 different types of training ammo. These ammo include Close Quarters Training Ammo (CQT), Greenshield Frangible, Short-stop Short-range, Securi Blank, and FX Marking Cartridges. All of the ammo is considered LETHAL ammo, except the FX Marking Cartridge. The FX Marking Cartridge is the ammo that is used in live-fire Force-on-Force training. The round expels a projectile, which is shaped much like a bullet. It is plastic and scored on the tip. Inside the projectile is colored soap. Upon impact, the soap is forced out of the end of the projectile, leaving a visible mark on whatever it hits. I became a SIMUNITION instructor last year and helped implement the training at our PD. This type of training is by far the best, most realistic training we have ever done. SIMUNITION will not sell to the general public. They will only sell items provided the paperwork is signed by a certified instructor. They even sent out a memo recently that this type of training is only to be used by LE and Military, and that "civilian" use of their products is prohibited. |
|
I like the fact that SIMUNITION requires the use of a conversion kit. The reason SIMUNTION designed a conversion kit is because the kit precludes the chambering and firing of LIVE, LETHAL ammo. The kit does not totally prevent live ammo from functioning in the weapon, as there have been numerous deaths across the nation with LEO's using this equipment and somehow loading live rounds, but it does make it much harder to accidentally load a live round. It may cost more, but safety is increased. Another fact in the death of officers while doing SIMS training is that some RSO (range safety officers) failed to adequetly inspect all of the gear that came into the training site to make sure no live ammo or non-converted weapons were brought in. When we run training, we have 3 zones. Unsafe zone, semi-safe zone, and safe zone. When a student comes into the semi-safe zone, he/she is inspected completely by an RSO and once in this area, they are not to leave without first notifying the RSO. Once the student returns, they are then re-inspected. The loading of the SIMS guns is done ONLY by an RSO. The RSO will inspect and load the SIMS weapon and hand it to the student while he watches him holster the weapon. The student is then sent to the training area, considered the safe zone where the scenario is run. Once the scenario has ended, the weapon is re-holstered and the student walks directly to the RSO in charge of weapons, unholsters the weapon, and hands it to the RSO, who gets the weapons ready for the next group. |
|
Simunition restrictis who can sell their product. You can only buy it from the distributor in your region. All semi-auto systems run with the 9mm round. As far as I know, no one has died from being hit by a simunition fx marking cartridge. Too many tragic accidents have occurred when live weapons are introduced into the training area. When the exercise involves too many people over a large area (such as SWAT training scenarios), it becomes very difficult to monitor students, role players, and the training area perimeter. If someone can cite a specific case where someone has died from being hit by a marking cartridge, please cite the incident and post it. That's not to challenge anyone, but for safety/training reasons and follow up research. Simunition has mandated many safety layers to prevent fatal incidents. This simulation training is as realistic as it gets and is a valuable tool. The safety gear often interferes with use of the training aids and is frustrating, but the MAIN REASON TO USE SIMUNITION EQUIPMENT IS TO TEST JUDGEMENT UNDER STRESS AND TO REMEDIATE STUDENTS SO THEY DON'T GET THEMSELVES OR OTHERS SERIOUSLY HURT OR KILLED. |
Do you know how many officers have been killed, and what various systems they were using? It's a tragedy if a couple have lost their lives in accidents, but if it is happening regularly then the equipment and/or training procedures need to be overhauled. |
|
If weapons have been properly converted to use fx marking cartridges, then live rounds can't be chambered because even though the chamber is 9mm in diameter, the barrel is 7.62mm. The action should remain "out of battery." Chambers also have a slot cut in them to cause any lethal round's case to rupture to bleed off enough muzzle velocity to keep the round from being lethal. Deaths have occurred from live weapons and ammunition being introduced into the training area. Significant injury can occur when safety guidelines are not followed. FX marking cartridges can travel up to 485fps. The .38 cal fx marking cartridges are a different story though. That's why they have safety guidelines. |
|
Re read my post...sorry for the confusion. I should have clarified in my above posts. The deaths I referred to were as a result of live ammo/weapons being brought into the training area and as a result, officers were shot with the live rounds fired from non-converted weapons. I know of no reported deaths from the FX Marking Cartridges themselves. One of my instructors gave the disclaimer that the conversion kits "preclude" the loading of lethal ammo in the convervsion kits, however, it is still possible that live rounds (smaller caliber) could still fit in the converted chambers and fired. I've not tried it myself, however. It's important that you have RSO's who are sticklers for detail to prevent any accidents or deaths during training. |
I dont know the specific details of the incident but a year or so ago a Clackamas County Swat deptuy was killed in a training accident where a live round was inadvertantely mixed in with the training ammo. If anyone's interested I'm sure a search of Clackamas county Oregon related news stories will turn it up. |
AR Sponsor