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Posted: 3/6/2006 9:44:57 AM EDT
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Sniper360 said to move this here and to provide much more info and I'm sure he is correct.....so here goes Ok, on saturday I picked up a new upper (24" Wilson 1in8 SS bull on a LMT A3 upper) and a complete BCG/B/CH at the gun show here in Wichita. 450$ total....not a bad deal. The AR is a Bushy Carbon M4 with a 6 position stock which I hate. The LMT mounted with no problems and is nice and tight, something I was worried about. Put some loads together that night and went to the range on sunday morning. Once I got it on paper and went thru the break-in procedure, it was shooting very well. 1/2" groups in a ugly head wind. Here I was thinking that I actually got a good deal at a gunshow. I'm at work so i dont have the load sheet in front of me but this will be close: 60 gr. Nosler BT softpoints 26.8 gr.s of BLC-2 powder OAL was right at or just below Winchester factory length, again I'm at work and dont have the load sheet with me. Other ammo used was: 55 gr. Winchester Whitebox (just to get on paper) 62gr. Winchester Whitebox 65 gr. Blackhills V-Match Then...... I started to hear funny sounds after each shot. It would go bang, I could see the impact behind the target, and I could hear the spring....and it sounded funny. Kind of a boing and rattle. Next shot...click....WTH? I pull the mag (20 rd.'er with 5 rounds loaded) and notice the bolt has not cycled forward. After slapping the side of the receiver with the palm of my hand, the bolt springs forward and closes. I changed Mags thinking it was a mag feed problem, and it still would hang prior to picking up the next round. So I tried to dry cycle the bolt with no Mag in the well, and it would hang. Also it was not smoothly pulling back with the charging handle also. Something was/is dragging. Hmmmm.....I pulled the bolt out and give it a look. I notice that the bolt is sticking as it moves front to rear and the key on the top has some wear right side (now bare metal) and there is now wear marks in the upper where I think that key is dragging on the side if the upper. Also the groups went to hell, from 1/2" to 2"-3" in shot gun fashion. The 1st 60 or so rounds incountered no problems, but after about 60, this problem started and progressivly got worse. The range owner came over and fiddled with the BCH and dumped a bunch of breakfree CLP on it and sat there and worked the bolt back and forth and it quit sticking. He said it was uber carbon fouled (it was supposedly a new BCH/B).....so now I have a B/BCH that I dont trust and I am not sure what I should/need to do now. Being new to AR's I have not had to tear a bolt down or any of that yet so this is uncharted waters for me. Someone said that new BCG/B's like to break in wet. I have not been able to find any info on this wet vs. dry stuff. If I was at home I would take a pic or 2 of the wear on the key (It had no wear when I purchased it) and the wear in the upper. I noticed that when the bolt is in the forward locked position, that the shaft (??) of the bolt as it goes into the carrier has/had some greenish corrosion (not thick or like a grease) all around the shaft, it was not present when I installed the BCG/B. Any suggestions? |
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CLP is your best friend when it comes to the AR rifles. It is used not only for lubrication, but also to clean the entire rifle except the bore. On the bore, you need to use a copper solvent, but remember to fully flush out the copper solvent after it's use since it and CLP will create a gummy mess second by only pine tar. As for a source of CLP, BreakfreeCLP seems to be the less expensive for anything less than a gallon bought at a time. Here is how to correctly clean the weapon, and it should be done each time the rifle is outing'd. www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/ As for the grouping going to hell in a hand basket when the rifle starts to foul out, normal since the bolt is not locking up repeatable from shot to shot. Note: Think deviations in case blow-out (fire forming) to seal off in the chamber wall, which translate to deviations in bullet speed down the bore, and then overall deviations in barrel harmonics. |
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Well it seems my "new Bolt" was just a used bolt. http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/lbsra-hookecho/boltgunk1.jpg and http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/lbsra-hookecho/boltgunk2.jpg I think the greenish blue stuff on the bolt face is blue locktight? So, now that I have it apart, what the heck am I looking for? Do I lube it and if so...where? Oh and thats the 2nd time that mantainence link was posted, I have that manual also, and I cant find anywhere where it says put lube here or dont lube here.......those diagrams are kinda 1950's lol. So...do I trust that bolt and carrier or do I scrap it and order a new one. |
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Wow, I agree with you........the bolt doesn't look new [sigh] All is not lost..........just clean it up. Check the gas rings for excessive wear................ I would replace the rings just so you know they are new they only cost about $1.50 apiece...and you will need three. Check the extractor carefully.........run your finger nail along its claw and make sure it still has a sharp edge with no broken spots. After everything is cleaned up ........use your finger and rub a good gun oil on everything. Take it to the range and give it another try. You might want to ask Dano.....if he thinks that old bolt thrown into a new upper posses any headspace dangers. You might want to get a Go - No go gauge JF. |
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The extractor felt good and the spring feels good. I cant seem to get that green crap off the bolt, and it is also on the inside of the carrier. I'm out of Qtips now her Well at least before the bolt acted up.....it was shooting very well http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/lbsra-hookecho/Newgroups.jpg |
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Hookecho, where to begin? B/C was new and looks about right for the amount of rounds you put down range BUT, the retard that installed the key was clueless. First, use acetone or finger hail polish remover and clean off the loctite that is littering the B/C. Next check the allen screws to confirm that they have been torque to 35 in lbs, and stake the carrier key (there is a topic posted in the main section of the trouble shooting forum that will cover staking the key). Next on the top 10 count down is the use of Rem oil in the rifle. Rem oil with teflon is a LP only, and about as useful as LSA. What is lacking in the lube is a real time cleaner (Read CLP stands for cleaner, lubricant, and protection). Simple put, the use of standard gun oils does nothing to dissolve the gunpowder fouling as it build up in the rifle, which results in the rifle jamming very quickly. Wal-Mart sells the large spray cans of BreakfreeCLP for around $8.00. If you don't find it in the sporting goods section, look in automotive. ______________ Basic lowdown on a quick clean and lube. Pull the B/C from the rifle. Pull the FP retaining pin, and drop the FP, cam, and bolt out of the carrier. Push the extractor pin out, and pull the extractor. Spray the whole mess down with a coat of CLP, and threw then in the CLP cap to soak. Now using a copper solvent like Sweets, clean the copper out of the bore and the bake on fouling from the chamber. Once the bore/chamber is clean, spray CLP down the gas tube, and a good shot into the barrel extension. Now dip a cleaning patch in the CLP (from the cap that the bolt parts are soaking in), and wipe down the inside of the upper receiver to remove the old fouled CLP. Now pull the buffer, and wipe it and the spring down. If these parts are not heavy fouled, then don't worry about the inside of the receiver extension, and just put the lightly coated CLP buffer and spring back in the rifle. Now breaking out the Q-tips, start with the outide of the gas tube and work your way forward/down cleaning the barrel extension. Once you have the front section of the upper cleaned, give the bore one more shot of CLP, then chase the mess with clean patches to drive all the goop forward and out of the muzzle. This flushed out any Bore cleaner/solvent that you might have left in the chamber/barrel as well as the old fouled CLP that you have pushed into the chamber. Finish the upper off, by attacking the muzzle inside the FS with q-tips to get as much as you can of fouling cleaned from it. On the lower, a few Q-tips soaked in CLP on the FCG should resolve any fouling located there. Back to the B/C, By now the CLP has disolved most of the fouling and it should wipe off, but in needed, use your finger nail to get the fouling off the bugle section on the back of the bolt (it should flake right off). Since the CLP has soaked into the gas rings, don't worry about pulling them, just wipe off what fouling you can. Now with the B/C back together, give a quick shot of CLP down the key to lube the inner gas section, then give the rest of the B/C a light coat (on everything), and put it back in the upper. With the rifle back together, work the action a few times to migrate the CLP, the finish off the cleaning by wiping down the outside of the rifle with a rag (if the outer parts are dry, a quick shot of CLP will give them a protective coat before the wipe down). To really sum up cleaning the rifle, only the bore/chamber gets cleaned, and the rest of the rifle just gets an oil change. |
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Now that is what I was looking for, Thanks Dano. After I took those pictures, I hit the whole mess with Breakfree Gun Blast (??... the spray cleaner) and gave it a good scrubbing. But with what you posted, I'll do it again tonight using your proceedure. I have 2 types of Breakfree CLP, a spray and a squeeze bottle. I assume both will work with your guides there in different spots. On the gas tube, you said to spray CLP down the tube, are you talking about the gas tube that extends down the barrel or the tube on top of the BC? If it is down the barrel side, do I need to let it drain back into (downward) the upper reciever? Or do I just need to work on the outside and then pipe cleaner the inside? Or is it both? The barrel is new and the Barrel Extention was clean ( I did look prior to heading for the range) but I did like your proceedure for cleaning the cooper fouling there. I did Sweets the barrel after 30 rds and found some minor fouling in 1 lan which cleaned up nicely. I didnt think about the extention. Do you just use a chamber brush then chamber mop and then follow with Qtips? Also, do what do you recommend for neutralizing the Sweets in the extension, acetone or carb cleaner or something like Breakfree Gun Blast (or equvilant?) I have been using Butches Bore Shine on the barrel or when my dad is at the range I steal...er...I mean barrow his special Hoppes with benzine and some other stuff he wont tell because then he would have to kille me super secret bench rest stuff....lol...but mostly its Butches. Now when I had the bolt out, I looked at the gas rings and.....I have no idea what they should look like. They seem to be nice and shinny and the gaps (ends) look uniform but how loose should they be? When you say pull the buffer, are you talking about the one in the stock? While I am asking that....the lower has a tele stock and I'm sure has a buffer and spring for a carbine in it. Do I need to change something here now that I have a rifle length gas system? Anyway thanks for all that good info, I think that needs to be stickied up top somewhere because it goes much more in-depth than the manuals. Thanks again, I'll let you know how it comes out. |
The stuff in the spray can works a little better at first cleaning since it does contain more solvent. Just remember to shake the hell out for the can or when you first use the can, all you will get is teflon.
Barrel down, and shoot the CLP down the gas tube from inside the receiver and allow it to run out the bore. You don't need to clean out the tube with any pipe cleaners, the fouled CLP will self clean at 50,000 psi on the first shot after cleaning. The reason behind this is to flush out any sweets that may have entered the gas ports when you scrubed the bore.
I use the chamber brush to scrub the chamber, then sweets down the bore on patchs. Last step in cleaning is flushing out all the CLP/crap you pushed from the barrel extension into the bore, and this flushes and leaved a protective coating (the bore should have been dry swabbed before this step). Note: since the AR's are going to allow CLP to migrate into the bore anyway, using CLP (PETF) in the bore is not the end of the world. But on my bench bolt action rigs, sweets and #9 oil are only used.
About every 10,000 rounds (read about a months shooting when time permits), I will use my thumb nail to walk the gas rings off the bolt, and clean off any brass fouling that may have collected under them in the groove. Again, as long as they will move freely at cleaning, leave them in place.
With the hammer cocked/action shotgun'd open, push down on the buffer retension pin. The buffer will walk forward over the retainer pin, then stop about a inch out. Turn the buffer until the retaining pin hits one of the buffer rear flats, and then the buffer and recoil spring will come out of the receiver extension. The buffer, the spring, and the inside of the receiver extension should all have a light coat of CLP on them before being re-install. Anyway thanks for all that good info, I think that needs to be stickied up top somewhere because it goes much more in-depth than the manuals. Thanks again, I'll let you know how it comes out. No reason to tack anything since this has been at the site all along. www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-10.pdf |
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Dano .you say " What is lacking in the lube is a real time cleaner (Read CLP stands for cleaner, lubricant, and protection). Simple put, the use of standard gun oils does nothing to dissolve the gunpowder fouling as it build up in the rifle, which results in the rifle jamming very quickly." I could be wrong but it seems to me you are saying that you can't fire an AR15 without using CLP ?? I have used and fired an AR type rifle from about 1977.........and I never heard of CLP [ at that time ] Never had a single moment of a problem......and I used the AR as a duty weapon to protect my life. Can you care for..........and use the AR15 without buying CLP ?? I say yes , you can. Just plain good gun oil like Break-free{ Automatic weapons} will work fine. I have never had my gun jam in the field because " I didn't use CLP" I respect your judgement....and if you prefer CLP.......that's fine...........but I would not exclude the many other products on the market that get the job done. But now you have done it ! All my automatic rifles and semi-pistols that fire about 10,000 rounds a year without problems have heard they can't function without CLP .......and I have NONE. So now I am doomed into owning a closet full of jam-o-matics...............oh the pain. It my fault though.............. I shouldn't be reading your posts out-loud.........now where is the yellow pages, I know CLP is listed somewhere. JF. |
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sniper350, The short version, M-14 rifles used grease as a lubricant. The M-16 rifle hit the battlefield, and LSA was issued as the lubricant, cleaning agent for field maintenance. Due to problems with the first specifications of the rifle, the condition of the recycled gunpowder being used, and harsh field conditions, a new lube was specified to clean and lube the rifle (along with other improvements on the weapon/ammo it’s self). If you had looked at the bottle of fluid that was used to clean and lube the rifle in 77, it would be listed MIL-L-63460. Breakfree is just one of the contracts that have supplied MIL-L-63460 to the government, and when it comes to buying MIL-L-63460 in smaller amounts than a gallon, BreakfreeCLP is the least expensive product available that confirms to the MIL-L-63460 standards. Note, on other weapons, either grease (older designs) or LSA MIL-STD-1388 is still used to lube the weapons, but in regards to maintaining the M-16, M-4 rifles, MIL-L-63460 has been called out for in the TM's for a very long time. Regarding the government rifles that you may have been issued, The QC on these rifles is top notch, and minor break in is not needed. Parts/rifles that were not up to standard where rejected long before reaching you in the field. But since that many of the rifle in the civilian world are not tripled checked for in-spec standards (really no such thing since there is no mil spec for AR- 15 semi auto parts), then minor break in may be required, and the cleaning properties in MIL-L-63460 (CLP) allows the fouling of parkerized, anodized, and burn gunpowder accumulated fouling to be flushed from the rifle to minimize the binding effect, and allow the rifle to mate in threw live fire. Don’t know if you were ever in a prolonged fire fight or shooting situation, but the simple trick to keeping the rifle running between waves was to add a few drops of MIL-L-63460 in threw the bolt exhaust ports of the carrier with the bolt open enough to allow it to run into the gas chamber section on the B/C, then be migrate through out the action during live fire. Later in life, I still use this trick when taking M autos well past the 3K mark without cleanings when using even the dirtiest of burning ammo. Regarding running a rifle completely dry (lack of lube), if the conditions warrants it, it can be done, but this will accelerate wear to the parts (shorten the life span of the unit), and rifle will fail (jam) sooner between cleaning due to the accumulation of gunpowder fouling. Also, since parkerizing it’s self is a nothing more than a built up base that will hold lubes better than raw/blued surfaces, without any lube on the parkerized parts, it leaves them very susceptible to oxidation (rust and pitting). |
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To add, the trouble shooting forum is always open for Point/Counter point discussions, but will add that you really what to have your ducks in a row before hand, since the ar15.com site as a whole is monitored/posted by more than a few people that write/update the TM’s their developments, and develop the up coming systems yet to introduced to the services. Trust me, there has been times when even I have theorized too far from the facts, and had my ass handed back to me on a silver platter. Come to think of it, I have been nailed to the cross so many times, I should have more than a few silver stars stapled to my forehead by now for the effect alone. Getting the staff to together to buy the paper stars may be a problem, but I can see a long line of then waiting to get the stapler when it comes time to do the deed.  |
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Now when I had the bolt out, I looked at the gas rings and.....I have no idea what they should look like. They seem to be nice and shinny and the gaps (ends) look uniform but how loose should they be? Gaps in the bolt rings are not lined up? Right? I couldn't tell if you were saying the ring ends were inline (uniform) or the same size gaps (uniform). Hope you get it cleared up soon. I had a similar problem and a really good cleaning took care of it. |
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========================================================== Don’t know if you were ever in a prolonged fire fight or shooting situation, but the simple trick to keeping the rifle running between waves was to add a few drops of MIL-L-63460 in threw the bolt exhaust ports of the carrier with the bolt open enough to allow it to run into the gas chamber section on the B/C, then be migrate through out the action during live fire. Later in life, I still use this trick when taking M autos well past the 3K mark without cleanings when using even the dirtiest of burning ammo. ============================================================ Excellent description of a time honnored method for keeping the "black hornet" -stinging ! I guess we are on the same page............just got caught up in semantics. Yep, your right ! I have always used the MIL-L-63460 on my rifles but didn't know it was a derivative of CLP. I can't remember where I picked them up .....small plastic bottles with nozzles filled with the MIL spec Lube. I have dozens now. I never let any of my weapons deteriorate into a "dry state"............like trying to run you car without any oil in the engine block. JF. |
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