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Posted: 9/27/2011 10:54:08 AM EDT
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I need some advice on the preferred stock (collapsible) position setting for a tactical environment. I live in a "not-so-free" state so the stock will need to be pinned in order to comply with state law.
Physical description: Male 5'8" 150lbs 24y/o Occupation: 2LT (Infantry Platoon Leader), US Army National Guard Training: Basic Training, Infantry Basic Officer Leader's Course Weapons familiarization: Colt M4, Colt M4 w/M203 The duty weapon I typically use is the M4 that has a 4 position stock. I am looking into purchasing a Daniels Defense DDM4 V1. It uses a Magpul CTR stock. Unfortunately, the military's small-arms training is fairly rudimentary and limited. Trigger-time for an officer is even more limited since we typically are tasked out as the OIC for ranges. I've taken the time to look through the curriculum of a few tactical carbine courses and I am looking to pick the brains of some of those who have been through those or use the AR15/M4 platform on a daily basis (preferably duty) in regards to the stock position. What is your preferred stock position setting and why (besides "it's comfortable")? For me, fully collapsed (position 0) seems to close and tucked in for comfort but it doesn't seem like it's anything that I can't adjust to. Unfortunately, military small-arms training is limited and I've never had the time to reposition the sights/optics (and re-zero) on my duty weapon to complement different stock positions. I have never set it beyond 2 notches from fully collapsed as it felt too far. When I was assigned an M4 w/M203, I almost always kept it fully collapsed. The M203 completely threw off the balance of the M4 and it's far easier to maintain the high-ready position for a longer period of time with the stock fully collapsed. |
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I assume that you want to use the weapon while standing, so use the minimum length that will allow a good view of your iron sights of the proper eye relaid for your optic. The 3rd position out seems to be the sweet spot for me with a small aperture and around 4 or 5 with a large one.
What type of rear sight are you using? I use the stock further out when I am benched. |
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I assume that you want to use the weapon while standing, so use the minimum length that will allow a good view of your iron sights of the proper eye relaid for your optic. The 3rd position out seems to be the sweet spot for me with a small aperture and around 4 or 5 with a large one. What type of rear sight are you using? I use the stock further out when I am benched. Yes, primarily while standing (unsupported). It seems that having the stock extended out a little farther while shooting from the prone position is more comfortable. |
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For me it depends on what stock it is and if I am wearing a vest or other gear. Anywhere from the 1/2 position (1st notch) to fully extended is what I normally use. For the CTR I found myself running it from the 1/2 position when shooting with body armor, without I would use the 3/4. For me it boiled down to being able to keep my shooter stance and remaining comfortable while shooting (i.e not having to stain my neck to the sight or allowed me to bring the sight to my face without having to readjust).
Really it will depend on you the individual, often you have to play around with it to find the best position for you. |
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Shooting with hard plates (IOTV) and without (FLC) are two different things, and you'll need the stock at different positions to shoot the same way.
FWIW- while patrolling, particularly if vehicle based, you will find that it's probably easiest to roll with the stock all the way collapsed, when wearing hard plates, you'll find that it's not so cramped. Without the body armor, I usually run mine one notch out on an M4 receiver extension (4 position), which equates to two or three notches out on a 6 position stock, basically just far enough that you can see the slanted end of the "track" that the locking pin sits in without any of the straight bottom exposed. This is to shoot "squared up" with the target, as if presenting plates to the enemy. That being said, different positions dictate different stock lengths, I pull the stock out further. I also tend to shoot NTCH whenever possible, though. IMHO, if stuck in Jersey, decide which stock you plan to run first (personally not a big fan of the MOE that DDs come with- though I like the CTR), and have that pinned. Since most of your shooting on your personal carbine is going to be done without wearing hard plates, have it pinned where it's comfortable offhand. Realize that if and when you need to use your weapon, it's probably going to be in a moment, "oh shit!" because if you're doing a whole lot of trigger pulling as an LT, you're either not fighting your troops correctly, and don't actually run them; or, no one's really expecting to go home that day. ~Augee |
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Shooting with hard plates (IOTV) and without (FLC) are two different things, and you'll need the stock at different positions to shoot the same way. FWIW- while patrolling, particularly if vehicle based, you will find that it's probably easiest to roll with the stock all the way collapsed, when wearing hard plates, you'll find that it's not so cramped. Without the body armor, I usually run mine one notch out on an M4 receiver extension (4 position), which equates to two or three notches out on a 6 position stock, basically just far enough that you can see the slanted end of the "track" that the locking pin sits in without any of the straight bottom exposed. This is to shoot "squared up" with the target, as if presenting plates to the enemy. That being said, different positions dictate different stock lengths, I pull the stock out further. I also tend to shoot NTCH whenever possible, though. IMHO, if stuck in Jersey, decide which stock you plan to run first (personally not a big fan of the MOE that DDs come with- though I like the CTR), and have that pinned. Since most of your shooting on your personal carbine is going to be done without wearing hard plates, have it pinned where it's comfortable offhand. Realize that if and when you need to use your weapon, it's probably going to be in a moment, "oh shit!" because if you're doing a whole lot of trigger pulling as an LT, you're either not fighting your troops correctly, and don't actually run them; or, no one's really expecting to go home that day. ~Augee Truth. Either it's becoming a really bad situation or it already is one. Hopefully it's not a demotion from PL to Rifleman because of earth shattering incompetence. |
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Stock completely closed pretty much all the time, except with my SPRs with Leupold Mk4 scopes that stick out toward the back quite a bit (with ARMS rings).
My favorite scope is the 4x32 ACOG, with its 1.5" eye relief, it requires the stock to be closed or in its first position. After a while, I don't bother extending it even when I shoot with an Aimpoint or EOTech. With body armor, stock completely collapsed is the only way to get a good eye relief on the ACOG, so I just simplify everything by shooting with it closed all the time. |
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I use position 2 on a Vltor 5 holer. You might consider this and add 1/2 to 1 inch pad to get to the lenght you want and seems better than a pinned stock 1/2 inch pad seems best.
JCS |
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I use position 2 on a Vltor 5 holer. You might consider this and add 1/2 to 1 inch pad to get to the lenght you want and seems better than a pinned stock 1/2 inch pad seems best. JCS Yeah, I use one of those ARFX-E stocks on a 9mm AR carbine, and it is the perfect length with the 1" pad to put my nose on the charging handle. I find the A1 fixed stock to also be about the perfect length for me. I am 6'7" tall, though, so your length may vary. |
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Also, is stock pinning reversible? If you find the position to be less than desirable can you re-pin the stock in a different setting using the same components you previously used or do some components need to be replaced? I drill a small hole and drop a roll pin in.. then to reverse I remove the roll pin.. last time I used a trigger guard roll pin... USUALLY you can pop it back out from the opposite side (if you drilled thru) using a punch or icepick.. Granted your SUPPOSED to epoxy over the PIN to make it not easily reversible.. 
of course if your getting THAT TIGHTLY INSPECTED your usually in trouble for something bigger in life.. IMHO.. |
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I always run my 2 spots out from the shortest position. Most of my friends adjust it all the way out when they shoot my rifles for some reason. I have ape arms and I love the rifle being tucked in close. Most likely your friends are standing bladed to the target instead of squared up. I like the stock on my SBR two clicks out, as well as the acs stock on my 16" with Acog. (the slanted part of the slotted track is just sticking out of the stock) I am around 6'3" |
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In before the comment advising you to 'move to a free state'.  Heh. I always wonder what goes through the minds of those who make these suggestions? Do they honestly think that someone's going to say, Oh! Darn it! Why didn't I think of that yesterday? Let me pack my bags because I'm moving tomorrow." |
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It honestly depends on what the rifle will be used for. I am 5'8" and 180lbs and I pinned my stock in the first setting. My gun is primarily a home defense gun and I liked the way it felt when moving around a corner with the short stock. I do however have an a2 stock as well and if I plan on taking it to the range I tend to swap the stocks out (I need a new lower  ). Luckily for me though I will be leaving this ban state soon enough, and with any luck I will be stationed at Fort Benning.
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Also, is stock pinning reversible? If you find the position to be less than desirable can you re-pin the stock in a different setting using the same components you previously used or do some components need to be replaced? I drill a small hole and drop a roll pin in.. then to reverse I remove the roll pin.. last time I used a trigger guard roll pin... USUALLY you can pop it back out from the opposite side (if you drilled thru) using a punch or icepick.. Granted your SUPPOSED to epoxy over the PIN to make it not easily reversible..
of course if your getting THAT TIGHTLY INSPECTED your usually in trouble for something bigger in life.. IMHO.. What I did was drill through the stock and buffer. Drop a trigger roll pin in and epoxy one side. It is easy to drill through the epoxy to remove the roll pin. I wouldn't skip that step even though it is highly unlikely that you ever get picked up for an illegal stock |
I was told by a so-called "gun expert" many years ago - that you always want your collapsible stock on the LONGEST setting that is comfortable for you. As in, pull the stock out all the way, and then slowly move it in, notch by notch, until it is comfortable. I'm not exactly sure what the longer stock-position does, but that's what I've always done. Having said that, it seems like the majority in this thread disagree with this advice....
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I'm in the guard as well. With an IBA on I usually go 2 clicks out with both irons and optic. However my current unit only has M16A2's so that makes it easy. If I had to pin my civi AR however I would pin it 1 click in from being furthest extended (mine is a 6 position stock so I'd go to 5). Come to think of it, my civi AR never leaves that stock position actually, ever. However with nose to the charging handle method I'm confident I could place rounds well with any stock position so just go with what's comfortable for you.
FWIW I'm 5'6 145lbs. Little dude. Did you go ROTC, West Point, or OCS? ETA: to add to what Augee stated. If you have an M203 thats probably all you'll use as a PL (but I'm sure you already know that, not trying to step on your toes or whatever). And for anyone wondering why, a lot of units have an SOP that PL's have M203's so they can tell the rest of their PLT where to shoot and/or other signaling reasons where your FO can't help you out or whatever, which is also why PL's should always carry a full mag of tracer rounds too. but i don't know why i've rambled on about this considering you're wondering what to do with your Civi AR. Do what's comfortable (then shoot it and make sure it works well for you!) |
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I'm in the guard as well. With an IBA on I usually go 2 clicks out with both irons and optic. However my current unit only has M16A2's so that makes it easy. If I had to pin my civi AR however I would pin it 1 click in from being furthest extended (mine is a 6 position stock so I'd go to 5). Come to think of it, my civi AR never leaves that stock position actually, ever. However with nose to the charging handle method I'm confident I could place rounds well with any stock position so just go with what's comfortable for you. FWIW I'm 5'6 145lbs. Little dude. Did you go ROTC, West Point, or OCS? ETA: to add to what Augee stated. If you have an M203 thats probably all you'll use as a PL (but I'm sure you already know that, not trying to step on your toes or whatever). And for anyone wondering why, a lot of units have an SOP that PL's have M203's so they can tell the rest of their PLT where to shoot and/or other signaling reasons where your FO can't help you out or whatever, which is also why PL's should always carry a full mag of tracer rounds too. but i don't know why i've rambled on about this considering you're wondering what to do with your Civi AR. Do what's comfortable (then shoot it and make sure it works well for you!) Accelerated OCS (South Dakota). I had an M203 at IBOLC, but I have an M4 back at my unit. The M203 is definitely not an accurate reference for stock positioning, heh. To be honest, I'm not sure how effective a full mag of tracer rounds can be. Ideally, they would only be effective in low-light scenarios but in most cases you'll deploy with the PEQ devices and NVGs. You could have everyone fire at the target identified by your IR laser. |
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I'm in the guard as well. With an IBA on I usually go 2 clicks out with both irons and optic. However my current unit only has M16A2's so that makes it easy. If I had to pin my civi AR however I would pin it 1 click in from being furthest extended (mine is a 6 position stock so I'd go to 5). Come to think of it, my civi AR never leaves that stock position actually, ever. However with nose to the charging handle method I'm confident I could place rounds well with any stock position so just go with what's comfortable for you. FWIW I'm 5'6 145lbs. Little dude. Did you go ROTC, West Point, or OCS? ETA: to add to what Augee stated. If you have an M203 thats probably all you'll use as a PL (but I'm sure you already know that, not trying to step on your toes or whatever). And for anyone wondering why, a lot of units have an SOP that PL's have M203's so they can tell the rest of their PLT where to shoot and/or other signaling reasons where your FO can't help you out or whatever, which is also why PL's should always carry a full mag of tracer rounds too. but i don't know why i've rambled on about this considering you're wondering what to do with your Civi AR. Do what's comfortable (then shoot it and make sure it works well for you!) Accelerated OCS (South Dakota). I had an M203 at IBOLC, but I have an M4 back at my unit. The M203 is definitely not an accurate reference for stock positioning, heh. To be honest, I'm not sure how effective a full mag of tracer rounds can be. Ideally, they would only be effective in low-light scenarios but in most cases you'll deploy with the PEQ devices and NVGs. You could have everyone fire at the target identified by your IR laser. Thats exactly what I said. If you have PEQs there's almost no need, also if the PL is the only person who knows where shots are coming from or telling others where to direct fire, you're in a whole shitload more of trouble than needing a full mag of tracers. It is however what I was told is an SOP of many units. I like the idea of having a tracer every 3rd round or so in every mag, that way you're not fumbling around trying to change mags if necessary (still can't really think of a situation in today's world where you'd really need that many tracers though). Good luck sir. Thank you for your service and I hope your civi AR gets pinned where you want it. |
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I'm 6'01" long spidery thing, and yet I prefer a short stock, and when I used an M4 style telescopic stock, it was best for me no more than 1-2 clicks out, though since this was a 6-pos tube, so I don't know what that would correlate to for the 4-pos tube that you say you've used, I've never handled an AR with one of the 4-pos ones.
The stock I use now is an RRA entry stock+DPMS 1" butstock extender. the RRA entry stock is a fixed stock which is 7" long from receiver to butplate, which is the same as an M4 stock fully collapsed, and each of the 6 positions on the M4 type stock make 0.625" (5/8") of difference, so at 8" overall, my stock is similar in length to an M4 stock 1-2 clicks out. Keep in mind that a lot of people, myself included, use an NTCH weld (nose to charging handle) which is a big factor, and with a stock any longer than an M4 stock 2-clicks out, it is very difficult for me to get my nose to the charging handle, and a very unnatural/uncomfortable position with my head/neck stretched really far forward. for a while I used the M4 type stock fully collapsed, and when I got the entry stock, left it as is, but I eventually realized that was slightly too short for an adequate LOP, thus the addition of the 1" extender, which is still short enough for me to easily, rapidly and comfortably get an NTCH weld. Hope this helps. |
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A lot of people seem to like the squared up stance with the stock fully or almost fully collapsed. I haven't had a ton of success with it. An alternative is a more bladed stance with the stock fully or near fully extended as advocated by shooters like Larry Vickers (fast forward to 3:10), Kyle Lamb and Kyle Defoor. Try out the different stock lengths standing, kneeling and prone if you can and see which method works best for you.
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